[ProtegeManiac]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ProtoBlues /img/forum/go_quote.gif

Stand up and reach for the knob? What? This doesn't make any sense. The speakers and sub are controlled through Windows currently, as well as the headphones and at 100%, they are extremely loud.  Well above safe listening volumes. (I'd probably blow out the headphones at 100%.) I have maybe a degree or two of turning space on the knob, so this won't work. I haven't used my phone to measure the noise intensity, but it must be at least 90dB at 100%.

 

Because powered speakers not designed for pro studio use where it's assumed the user has a preamplifier has a single volume knob on it instead of a gain knob on each cabinet. You can continue using Windows volume control if you want, but if you use a passive attenuator, then it will work well enough for the speakers. Even with two potentiometers in the same chain you're dealing with a very loud line signal, and the Sys can put that same knob near your hand.

 

Your problem in this case is that you want the same volume control to control the output on the headphone, the problem with it is something I already explained above, but the point is if it was only the speakers then any passive attenuator (heck you can even DIY that) will work. 

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by ProtoBlues /img/forum/go_quote.gif

Let's take the SYS for this example:

 

Input impedance: 10k ohms
Output Impedance: 5k ohms maximum

 

I can't find any official source for the STX's impedance ratings, so let's just say:

Line Out Impedance: 100 ohms
Phones Out Impedance: 10 ohms

 

K702 Annie Impedance: 62 ohms

 

You're saying the signal would be reduced so much that an amp would be necessary, to drive my headphones, correct...possibly my speakers/sub too? My electronics knowledge is very basic. I know a little about resistance, but not how this applies in audio signal transmission. Wouldn't the output impedance be controlled by the variable resistor, which is the pot?

 

Impedance is determined by the circuit or transducer coil design. The pot(entiometer) only controls the signal level. You can twist that knob any way you want and it will not correct any impedance issues. In any case, MindsMirror explained that in further detail.

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by ProtoBlues /img/forum/go_quote.gif

I see...I guess that puts that to rest. u_u What if I just use a volume control for the speakers and sub and then just run headphones straight out of the card?

 

That's basically what I was saying in my previous post, except I suggested you use the knob on the Master speaker on the A5 if you didn't want to use Windows on either.

 

[ProtoBlues]

 
Both the speakers and the headphones are extremely loud with Windows at 100%. I haven't tried it with the headphones, as the speakers are proof enough. I have maybe one to three degrees of control on the volume knob on the speakers. That doesn't give me much latitude, so controlling the volume with the knob is infeasible.
 
Next time I'll just get an external soundcard. They usually have their own volume control.
 
Quote:

  Don't use a passive volume control like the SYS directly on your headphones. It uses a voltage divider, where the top resistor (serveral KOhms at least) is always in the signal path.  It works fine for an amp input because the input is much higher impedance (~1MOhms). But that serveral KOhms is very significant compared to your low impedance headphones, even on max volume, your headphones will only receive maybe 1% of the voltage from the amp. The damping will also be terrible. Don't do it, it's bad.

Do other passive controls have similar designs or would this be possible with a different one?

 

[ProtegeManiac]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ProtoBlues /img/forum/go_quote.gif

Maybe I wasn't clear, both the speakers and the headphones are extremely loud with Windows at 100%. I haven't tried it with the headphones, as the speakers are proof enough. I have maybe one to three degrees of control on the volume knob on the speakers. That doesn't give me much latitude, so controlling the volume with the knob is infeasible.

 

That's why I was going with DAC-HPamp-Preamps. You can set the gain on its headphone amp on low, then with the volume knob on the speakers at the first or second notch, preamp on the unit can further reduce the voltage level of the signal if that's even necessary, because it might be the analogue circuit of the soundcard that has a high output and not the digital level on Windows on its own. if the DAC on the DAC-HPamp-Preamp does the decoding then its line output will be around 2volts and even on an active preamp circuit it isn't likely to go too high past that.

 

That said there's the possibility that your speakers were designed with an iPod in mind for that input. Are there other analogue inputs on it?

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by ProtoBlues /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Next time I'll just get an external soundcard. They usually have their own volume control.

 

Just make sure it's a preamp output in the rear as some only have line output there and the knob only controls the headphone output.

 

[ProtoBlues]

What? I'm an audio newb. I know some basic concepts, but that's it. Can you please speak on a level I can understand? Are you suggesting a signal chain like this:
Windows Volume Control --> Essence STX RCA            ---------------->             Preamp --> Speakers (volume controlled directly) --> Sub
                                                      |                                                                   |
                                       Essence STX 6.4 mm Phones --> Headphone Amp --> Preamp (control phones volume) --> Headphones
 
I just realized, this setup would make me still unable to control the sub's level without Windows.
 
Windows can get pretty loud, but being that I hardly have any room to turn the dial on my speakers, I know the STX contributes to the lack of room on the dial.
 
An output would specifically have to say "Preamp," right? It couldn't be something vague like "Output" (and certainly not "Line Out")?
 
Negative, the A5 is meant as a multimedia setup. It only has a 3.5 mm in the back for input. It has an additional 3.5 mm jack on top for a DAP. There is a USB port next to it, but it's only for power, no data.
http://audioengineusa.com/setupguides/A5%20Setup%20Guide_Rev%20D%20(web).pdf

 

[ProtegeManiac]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ProtoBlues /img/forum/go_quote.gif

What? I'm an audio newb. I know some basic concepts, but that's it. Can you please speak on a level I can understand? Are you suggesting a signal chain like this:

Windows Volume Control --> Essence STX RCA            ---------------->             Preamp --> Speakers (volume controlled directly) --> Sub
                                                      |                                                                   |
                                       Essence STX 6.4 mm Phones --> Headphone Amp --> Preamp (control phones volume) --> Headphones

 

I was suggesting using a Headphoneamp+DAC+Preamp unit and then explained that further in the post above. 

 

A Headphoneamp+DAC+Preamp unit like the now phased out NuForce HDP (ie they literally called it what it is) is potentially what will deal with the problem if the primary problem you are dealing with is a higher voltage output on your soundcard's line out (plus poorly mastered combatants of the Loudness War in your music library). The chain in this case will be:

STX >SPDIF Coaxial> HDP >front Headphone output> Headphone

                                         >rear Preamp output> Powered speaker

 

 

Now, if you're also using a subwoofer, the easiest way to integrate that will be:

STX >SPDIF Coaxial> HDP >front Headphone output> Headphone

                                         >rear Preamp output to Y-splitter> Powered speaker

                                                                                        > Powered subwoofer

 

 

Ideally however this is how such set-ups need to go, if a studio monitors are used with a studio subwoofer:

 

STX >SPDIF Coaxial> HDP >front Headphone output> Headphone

                                         >rear Preamp output>Subwooferline input>Subwoofer line output> Powered speaker

 
In all those cases Windows will be at 100%. Assuming that one of the problems you're dealing with before is the STX is sending a line output via RCA stronger than the Sony standard 2volts, then any properly designed H-D-P unit or a DAC (with a standalong H-P) will deal with that problem by spitting out a signal that is 2v or very close to that.
 
The alternative of course is to use only a headphone amplifier with a preamp output. In which case the chain will look like any of these:
 

STX >line out> Headphone amplifier >front Headphone output> Headphone
                                                      >rear Preamp output> Powered speaker (just modify what this looks like if a sub is in there but basically the same as the others above in that area)
 
The problems here of course are, first, you still get the line out of the STX, which if it's higher than 2volts is one of the problems, and second, you're still not going to find such a device for $50.
 
 

  Windows can get pretty loud, but being that I hardly have any room to turn the dial on my speakers, I know the STX contributes to the lack of room on the dial.

 
Which is why an H-D-P unit or separate DAC and H-P units might get around it since you'll send a digital signal from the STX which will then be decoded into a 2volt analog signal before running through the analogue amplifier or preamplifier stages.
 
 
 

  An output would specifically have to say "Preamp," right? It couldn't be something vague like "Output" (and certainly not "Line Out")?

 
Yes.
 
 
 

  Negative, the A5 is meant as a multimedia setup. It only has a 3.5 mm in the back for input. It has an additional 3.5 mm jack on top for a DAP. There is a USB port next to it, but it's only for power, no data.
http://audioengineusa.com/setupguides/A5%20Setup%20Guide_Rev%20D%20(web).pdf

 
Actually your response should have been "positive." Positive 2X actually. I asked if it had other analogue inputs and implied what you were using. You answered "negative" but then told me about two other analogue inputs.
 
Here are two of the analogue inputs in the same manual you linked. Both in purple, one (the RCA) encircled in blue and the other (3.5mm) in maroon.

 
So basically what I'm saying here is that whichever analogue input you might be using might have a higher sensitivity or lower impedance than normal line inputs in order to compensate for the lower voltage output of the iPod. That or all of them - dock on top, 3.5mm and RCA in the rear - are all designed with lower voltage output sources hooked up to them.
 
That said you case seems to be the only one I've encountered considering how many people have the A5 and A5+, making it even more likely that the STX is the problem.

 

[ProtoBlues]

I had no idea there was such a thing as an all-in-one phones amp/DAC/preamp. I will have to look into that. Thank you.
 
Quote:

  Actually your response should have been "positive." Positive 2X actually. I asked if it had other analogue inputs and implied what you were using. You answered "negative" but then told me about two other analogue inputs.
 
Here are two of the analogue inputs in the same manual you linked. Both in purple, one (the RCA) encircled in blue and the other (3.5mm) in maroon.

 
So basically what I'm saying here is that whichever analogue input you might be using might have a higher sensitivity or lower impedance than normal line inputs in order to compensate for the lower voltage output of the iPod. That or all of them - dock on top, 3.5mm and RCA in the rear - are all designed with lower voltage output sources hooked up to them.
 
That said you case seems to be the only one I've encountered considering how many people have the A5 and A5+, making it even more likely that the STX is the problem.

No, my response is still, "negative. I was asked if the A5 had any other analog inputs. The 3.5 mm on the top is just another 3.5 mm. It is the same as the 3.5 mm on the back. It's not a different input, per se, and I'm fairly certain the manufacturer expected the source (a soundcard or 3.5 mm on the motherboard) to be plugged into there, and a DAP on the top one. The RCA jacks are clearly labeled Line Out. They are outputs, left and right. The rear 3.5 mm is the primary input. It's already being used. I don't know what the impedance is of either TRS jack.

 

[ProtegeManiac]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ProtoBlues /img/forum/go_quote.gif

No, my response is still, "negative. I was asked if the A5 had any other analog inputs. The 3.5 mm on the top is just another 3.5 mm. It is the same as the 3.5 mm on the back. It's not a different input, per se, and I'm fairly certain the manufacturer expected the source (a soundcard or 3.5 mm on the motherboard) to be plugged into there, and a DAP on the top one. The RCA jacks are clearly labeled Line Out. They are outputs, left and right. The rear 3.5 mm is the primary input. It's already being used. I don't know what the impedance is of either TRS jack.

 

I was too sleepy I missed that label, but even with the RCA as line output technically you have two analogue inputs, one on top and one at the rear. They're both 3.5mm but that's still two of them. In any case, that increases the likelihood that Audioengine designed both 3.5mm inputs to be designed for portable sources, hence a high sensitivity.

 

Still, you still have that input sensitivity issue, so that's where having a DAC-Preamp comes in, however at this point you need to go check what the line output voltage is on your soundcard. If you can't find that spec, at least check what the max voltage output is on whatever preamp output you'll use. If 2volts is the maximum then at least if the soundcard is outputting 2volts your DAC-HPamp isn't spitting out a stronger signal. 

 

[ProtoBlues]

If it was only designed for portable sources, as you're proposing, they should not have mentioned computers in the description.

https://web.archive.org/web/20101213024602/http://audioengineusa.com/Store/Audioengine-5
 
For listening to real stereo sound Audioengine is all you need. If you want awesome powered speakers for your MP3 player, computer, game console, TV or DVD player but don't want a bulky receiver/amp hogging up your space, Audioengine is the perfect solution.

Spoiler: In before,...

"marketing!"

 
I checked the STX's specs and the output voltage is indeed 2 volts.

 https://www.asus.com/us/Essence-Hi-Fi-Audio/Xonar_Essence_STX/specifications/
 
Output/Input Full-Scale Voltage
2 Vrms (5.65 Vp-p)

 
Alright...I just looked at the manual for the A5 again, and all the setup instructions are for iPods/DAPs. It isn't until Configuration D that they mention other devices (and none of them are a computer).
 
I now regret my purchase. I have buyer's remorse. While they deliver a really good listening experience, I could've done better. I should went with the Swan M200 MkIII. u_u And obviously, the next step up from here is monitors, right? But monitors require high quality source material...and not all my stuff is that, nor will it ever be. u______u
 
Thank you for your help explaining this.
 
Now, I just need to find out if a passive control that isn't the SYS is feasible.

 

[MindsMirror]

As I mentioned, any kind of volume control between your amp and headphone is not good. If there is any passive circuit attenuating your signal, it is doing so by taking control away from your amp. For the amp to effectively do what it's supposed to, it needs to have direct control over the voltage on your headphones, and it can't do that with a resistor stuck between them. You might as well not even use an amp at all, it defeats the whole purpose, it's taking away any benefit of using an amp in the first place.
 
As I see it, you either have to use your headphones directly with the STX and low Windows volume, or buy an external amp. And as PM said, if your gonna buy an amp, you might as well get one with a preamp out to solve the speaker sensitivity issue as well. Although I don't recall if you mentioned, is noise actually an audible problem with the STX at low windows volume? There's nothing wrong with low windows volume if it doesn't introduce audible noise.

 

[ProtoBlues]

​Alright, so I guess that settles it then. It's not possible with headphones. No, there is absolutely no noise with the STX. The STX has such a low SNR noise should not be an problem.

​https://www.asus.com/us/Essence-Hi-Fi-Audio/Xonar_Essence_STX/specifications/
​
Output Signal-to-Noise Ratio (A-Weighted):
124dB for Front-out,117dB for Headphone-out (600ohms) dB
Input Signal-to-Noise Ratio (A-Weighted):
118 dB

​
The highest I can put my headphones at in Windows is 8%. (I really need to get a sound level meter, as the one on my phone reads well below safe levels, even at 100%, probably needs calibration.)
​
​Can you or anyone make some recommendations for a DAC-preamp, or would I be better off starting a new thread on this?

 

[ProtegeManiac]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ProtoBlues /img/forum/go_quote.gif

 

Now, I just need to find out if a passive control that isn't the SYS is feasible.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ProtoBlues /img/forum/go_quote.gif

​Alright, so I guess that settles it then. It's not possible with headphones. 

 

It's easy for the speakers but not the headphone. To add to what MindsMirror explained, having that circuit there means the headphone amp effectively "sees" the circuit as the load, not the headphone, which is "seen" by the passive circuit, which isn't an amp delivering current and voltage. You'll notice how hi-fi headphones don't have inline volume controls, and the portables that do nowadays act as a remote on the player, not as an inline resistor.

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by ProtoBlues /img/forum/go_quote.gif

​

​Can you or anyone make some recommendations for a DAC-preamp, or would I be better off starting a new thread on this?

 

Schiit Modi2 Uber (DAC with SPDIF) + Magni2 Uber (HPamp with preamp)

AudioGD NFB-11

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by ProtoBlues /img/forum/go_quote.gif

 

​or would I be better off starting a new thread on this?

 

Just edit the first post including the title, click on the pencil icon on the lower left of the box.

 

[ProtoBlues]

I've not had headphones with inline volume control in decades, so no I haven't noticed. I'm an audio newb, but I know the difference between hi-fi headphones and the stuff that comes with your phone or DAP.
 
Wait a minute...so you mean I have to get two devices? There isn't an all-in-one (but probably inferior) device like your prior posts implied? Should've known. OK, well while we're on this, I'd prefer a DAC that is comparable or better than the Burr-Brown PCM 1792A. I'm not willing to downgrade for this, especially since I can use this in future setups.

 

[ProtegeManiac]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ProtoBlues /img/forum/go_quote.gif

Wait a minute...so you mean I have to get two devices?

 

You can get a single device that has a Headphone Amp, DAC, and Preamp - you know, like how I cited the NuForce HDP as an example, and right up there in my previous reply I put the AudioGD NFB-11. Here, I Googled and linking it for you.

http://www.audio-gd.com/Pro/Headphoneamp/NFB112014/NFB112014EN.htm

 

See how it says "DAC Out" on the rear output...

 

...and then the output selector has H(ead)P(hone) for headphone output in front, Fixed for a signal direct from the DAC section's output stage, and Variable for running that same signal through its preamp section first.

 

 

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by ProtoBlues /img/forum/go_quote.gif

 

There isn't an all-in-one (but probably inferior) device like your prior posts implied? Should've known.

 

There' the NuForce UDAC or audio interfaces for pro audio applications but I wouldn't really trust them with headphone amplification. At the price points something just has to give, and even on expensive interfaces you're still getting a box with two or more headphone amps with a relatively high output impedance and not a lot of power. If all you need them for was to control the volume on monitors (and also recording with mics, plus mastering with the monitors) then no problem, but I wouldn't really trust any of these with a lower impedance, lower sensitivity headphone like the K702. The newer DSD version from NuForce or whatever they call themselves now (NuPrime I think) that has DSD still basically works off USB power - I wouldn't mind for monitor volume control and DAC duties but I wouldn't really use them with those AKGs. Those AKGs are really the wild card here. Other people who asked for recommendations only needed them for controlling monitors for stereo playback so even a $150 audio interface or a $100 UDAC is enough. 

 

On top of all that the UDAC and those audio interfaces (and the latter specifically because they're for recording, ie, sound needs to go back to the computer), they all run off USB, which means they will bypass your soundcard. Not only are they inadequate for the AKG's amplifier requirements, you will not have a DSP for virtual surround apart from Razer Surround.

 

[ProtoBlues]

If you mentioned the NuForce HDP, then it must've been a while ago. It wasn't necessary to look it up, but I appreciate you provided the link. I always try to do that myself in posts.
 
Knowing that this is something I can use in future setups, even without a computer, I'm willing to spend more, let's say $200 total. Also, at the least, I'm looking for a sidegrade, something comparable to or better than the Burr-Brown PCM 1792A on my STX that supports 24-bit/192 KHz or better. (Don't know what the amp is on it.) The idea of a downgrade isn't appealing. Since this will be used for gaming as well, SPDIF input is a must for DSP. An upgrade would be welcomed, but I know my budget probably limits that. Let's see what's available at this range first.
 
I know the Modi 2 Uber is, but then I need an amp too.

 

[MindsMirror]

The Magni 2 Uber seems reasonable to me. Use your STX as the DAC, connect the STX RCA out to the Magni RCA in, and the speakers to the Magni's pre-amp out. The Vali 2 works the same way so it is another option if you like tubes. I'm sure there are other brand amps with preamp out like the Schiits have that you could look into, I'm not aware of any though. I hate to always recommend the Magni 2U since I have not compared it to anything else, but it does seem to fit the bill here. This leaves the possibility of upgrading the DAC later on.