[Solved] Want to Control Speakers/Sub and Headphones Through Separate Volume Control, Not Windows - Looking for DAC/Headphone Amp/Preamp Combo
Oct 4, 2016 at 11:04 PM Post #46 of 64
The M8's manual assumes you're using the sub with a receiver. It also advises using an SPL meter in setting it up. I planned on getting an SPL meter anyway but for a different reason. I guess that's for another thread though. I have no idea what 0 dB would be on it nor on my speakers. I heard the rule of thumb is set the dial to 12:00, but this is deafening, so I'm probably not going to do that. Also, on the A5, turning the volume knob too high is associated with overheating (the main reason they released the A5+). I'm not sure if this is such a problem if you're controlling the volume with a preamp though.
 
I read the Wikipedia article on sound localization, and it says due to the physics of sound and human biology, it's very difficult below 80 Hz to identify the sound's source, so I might set it back to 80 Hz. I have to use test tones for this, as there are only high and low specific markings. The rest are just ambiguous lines.

WAF? Is that Wife Approval Factor? I've seen that before, but Urban Dictionary gives a bunch of definitions.
This goes for anyone reading.
 
With all due respect, people shouldn't marry someone that doesn't compromise or whose idea of compromise is:
 
Relationships involve compromise, whose?
A) Yours
B) Theirs
 
I don't even know how a relationship gets to that point without true compromise, but this is for another thread.
 
Junk, what junk? How does setting everything to 20-20 add more stuff?

​I'm probably going to get the Magni 2U or the Asgard 2, since with it being October I can wait till the holiday sales get in gear, plus the Rolls crossover (unless there's an option in a similar form factor).

​To anybody still reading, I'm still open to suggestions, as well as phones amp+preamp suggestions. I don't like these two being my only options.
 
Oct 5, 2016 at 4:12 AM Post #47 of 64
Hey Quote is back to working right - haha!

The M8's manual assumes you're using the sub with a receiver. It also advises using an SPL meter in setting it up. I planned on getting an SPL meter anyway but for a different reason. I guess that's for another thread though. I have no idea what 0 dB would be on it nor on my speakers. I heard the rule of thumb is set the dial to 12:00, but this is deafening, so I'm probably not going to do that. Also, on the A5, turning the volume knob too high is associated with overheating (the main reason they released the A5+). I'm not sure if this is such a problem if you're controlling the volume with a preamp though.


The pre-amp will act as an attenuator, so you'll want to set the levels on the sub and speakers at something reasonably "loud" because that'll become more or less your new maximum volume, and you'll trim it down from there.

SPL meter may be useful or may not - never hurts though.

I read the Wikipedia article on sound localization, and it says due to the physics of sound and human biology, it's very difficult below 80 Hz to identify the sound's source, so I might set it back to 80 Hz. I have to use test tones for this, as there are only high and low specific markings. The rest are just ambiguous lines.


Sounds reasonable. The Rolls crossover (or other crossovers) should have more markings on them, to help simplify this in the future.

WAF? Is that Wife Approval Factor? I've seen that before, but Urban Dictionary gives a bunch of definitions.


Yep, that'd be the one. There's been quite a lot of changes to what "hi-fi systems" look like in the last ~30 years and a lot if it has to do with aesthetics (everything getting smaller/less visible/etc) as opposed to simply "because it sounds better" - certainly there are other reasons for changes, but aesthetics are a big driving factor.

Junk, what junk? How does setting everything to 20-20 add more stuff?


No, what I mean is every channel in a stereo, multi-ch, etc setup to handle full-range 20-20k reproduction. That requires full-range speakers (and usually subwoofers to boot) for every channel, and will take up a lot of space for those speakers, amplifiers, etc - we're talking full on "movie theater style" sound. It will require a lot of big speakers and probably a lot of bulky upstream equipment that most people won't tolerate for aesthetic reasons.


​I'm probably going to get the Magni 2U or the Asgard 2, since with it being October I can wait till the holiday sales get in gear, plus the Rolls crossover (unless there's an option in a similar form factor). ​To anybody still reading, I'm still open to suggestions, as well as phones amp+preamp suggestions. I don't like these two being my only options.


Schiit is adamant about not running sales or specials, just something to think about.

Other headphone amps that include pre-outs (and this is in no particular order and I've not heard many of these, including the Schiit units mentioned previously):

- Music Hall PH25.2
- Audeze Deckard
- Monoprice 111567
- NuForce HAP-100
- Burson/SSA Lycan
- A lot of the Little Dot amplifiers
- Emotiva DC-1
- Maverick TubeMagic D1
- AudioEngine D1


You could also integrate anything with an RCA loop-thru, like Beyerdynamic A20, Musical Fidelity V90, CI Audio VHP2, Pro-Ject Head Box S, etc with the Schiit SYS (or something comparable) to work as well, but that'll be two volume controls - one for headphones and one for speakers.

For little preamps there's a few that come to mind:
- Schiit SYS
- CI Audio VPC3
- Fostex PC-1
- Emotiva Control Freak (you'd want the single ended edition)

This is just from some searching and being aware of some products - by no means exhaustive. :)
 
Oct 5, 2016 at 10:01 PM Post #48 of 64
The pre-amp will act as an attenuator, so you'll want to set the levels on the sub and speakers at something reasonably "loud" because that'll become more or less your new maximum volume, and you'll trim it down from there.

​So would I then set the speakers and sub separately so they're about even, or should I do them together due to when the waves combine (I forget what this is called) the resulting amplitude is higher?

Sounds reasonable. The Rolls crossover (or other crossovers) should have more markings on them, to help simplify this in the future.

​Through trial-and-error, I did the number crunching, and each mark should represent 18 Hz. That was a pain in the butt, and I haven't verified if this is even accurate. The Rolls does have more markings, but the intervals are even more ambiguous, so the only way to be sure is to send test tones through the sub and turn the dial until they're not heard.

Yep, that'd be the one. There's been quite a lot of changes to what "hi-fi systems" look like in the last ~30 years and a lot if it has to do with aesthetics (everything getting smaller/less visible/etc) as opposed to simply "because it sounds better" - certainly there are other reasons for changes, but aesthetics are a big driving factor.

​Hey, nothing wrong with aesthetics, as long as it's not sacrificing performance for it. Things should blend in to the aesthetics of the home. A good example of something that doesn't, is a lot of stuff in the kitchen nowadays: stainless steel refrigerators and other kitchen appliances don't belong in a home kitchen. They belong in a restaurant. They give the kitchen a very cold feeling. Panels can fix this but can be a costly addition.

No, what I mean is every channel in a stereo, multi-ch, etc setup to handle full-range 20-20k reproduction. That requires full-range speakers (and usually subwoofers to boot) for every channel, and will take up a lot of space for those speakers, amplifiers, etc - we're talking full on "movie theater style" sound. It will require a lot of big speakers and probably a lot of bulky upstream equipment that most people won't tolerate for aesthetic reasons.

​So you mean left and right speakers for every channel, a sub for every channel? Wow, talk about overkill.

Other headphone amps that include pre-outs (and this is in no particular order and I've not heard many of these, including the Schiit units mentioned previously):

- Music Hall PH25.2
- Audeze Deckard
- Monoprice 111567
- NuForce HAP-100
- Burson/SSA Lycan
- A lot of the Little Dot amplifiers
- Emotiva DC-1
- Maverick TubeMagic D1
- AudioEngine D1

​​Thank you for the suggestions. I must be using the wrong search terms cause I come up with mostly just headphone amps and few combos...and of the ones that are, they're ridiculously expensive. I really appreciate all your help with this. I know my newbness has probably gotten on some people's nerves that have viewed this thread and just didn't bother to post.

You could also integrate anything with an RCA loop-thru, like Beyerdynamic A20, Musical Fidelity V90, CI Audio VHP2, Pro-Ject Head Box S, etc with the Schiit SYS (or something comparable) to work as well, but that'll be two volume controls - one for headphones and one for speakers.

​Thanks, but I think I prefer a single knob for the time being. One knob to rule them all.


Three knobs for the PC Masters on electronic pathways,​
Seven for the Hi-fi Lords in their theaters at home,​
Nine for Audiophiles doomed to empty wallets,​
One for the Minimalist on his unassuming throne​
In the Land of Cyberspace where the Samples are high.​
One Knob to rule them all, One Knob to align them,​
One Knob to bring them all and in the signal bind them​
In the Land of Cyberspace where the the Bits are high.​
 
Oct 6, 2016 at 9:01 AM Post #49 of 64
​So would I then set the speakers and sub separately so they're about even, or should I do them together due to when the waves combine (I forget what this is called) the resulting amplitude is higher?


You'd want to set the speakers and sub to "unity gain" or "0 dB" or whatever is equivalent to that, if at all possible. Barring that, just set them to what would be "very loud" levels if hooked up on their own (this probably won't be maxed everywhere), because the pre-amp will be making the input lower/quieter than it is by default out of the PC, so that's where the volume attenuation will happen. The crossover will do that blending from the speakers<->sub.

​Through trial-and-error, I did the number crunching, and each mark should represent 18 Hz. That was a pain in the butt, and I haven't verified if this is even accurate. The Rolls does have more markings, but the intervals are even more ambiguous, so the only way to be sure is to send test tones through the sub and turn the dial until they're not heard.


That's pretty much what I'd do without a measurement device, and it should work pretty well. I'm going to guess that it'll end up around 80Hz. :)

​Hey, nothing wrong with aesthetics, as long as it's not sacrificing performance for it. Things should blend in to the aesthetics of the home. A good example of something that doesn't, is a lot of stuff in the kitchen nowadays: stainless steel refrigerators and other kitchen appliances don't belong in a home kitchen. They belong in a restaurant. They give the kitchen a very cold feeling. Panels can fix this but can be a costly addition.


But what if I want my kitchen to look like the backdrop for a 90s german techno video? :p

​So you mean left and right speakers for every channel, a sub for every channel? Wow, talk about overkill.


Well, more or less full-range speakers; a lot of people would call those "mains" today I guess. Movie theaters are, in many cases, setup like this, or at least a lot of their channels are. Ideally such a setup will outperform the small satellites + subwoofer thing, because each channel handles its own business, but yeah it's very very bulky.

I really appreciate all your help with this.


No problem - I like the more "puzzle" style questions where it's like "help me hook [blank] and [blank] together." It's like Legos. :D

​Thanks, but I think I prefer a single knob for the time being. One knob to rule them all.


Three knobs for the PC Masters on electronic pathways,​
Seven for the hi-fi'ers in their theaters at home,​
Nine for audiophiles doomed to empty wallets,​
One for the Minimalist on his unassuming throne​
In the Land of Cyberspace where the Samples are high.​
One Knob to rule them all, One Knob to align them,​
One Knob to bring them all and in the signal bind them​
In the Land of Cyberspace where the the Bits are high.​


Bwahahahaha. :beerchug:
 
Oct 13, 2016 at 9:19 PM Post #50 of 64
You'd want to set the speakers and sub to "unity gain" or "0 dB" or whatever is equivalent to that, if at all possible. Barring that, just set them to what would be "very loud" levels if hooked up on their own (this probably won't be maxed everywhere), because the pre-amp will be making the input lower/quieter than it is by default out of the PC, so that's where the volume attenuation will happen. The crossover will do that blending from the speakers<->sub.

​OK, that's what I was going to do: set them to a loud level I can tolerate as max. That is done with the preamp in chain or before adding it? But then I also have to adjust the levels on the crossover, right? What are those trim controls for on the crossover again?

But what if I want my kitchen to look like the backdrop for a 90s german techno video?
tongue.gif

​Oh, you can't just say that and not provide an example now. ಠ_ಠ

Well, more or less full-range speakers; a lot of people would call those "mains" today I guess. Movie theaters are, in many cases, setup like this, or at least a lot of their channels are. Ideally such a setup will outperform the small satellites + subwoofer thing, because each channel handles its own business, but yeah it's very very bulky.

​Oh OK, something that has drivers for each frequency range. Those are definitely expensive. So each unit would have three channels: highs, mids lows?

No problem - I like the more "puzzle" style questions where it's like "help me hook [blank] and [blank] together." It's like Legos.
biggrin.gif

​I suppose, if you see Legos as a puzzle.

So I've been researching your suggestions (and found a few others along the way):
  1. Focusrite 2i4
  2. Focusrite 6i6
  3. MOTU Microbook
  4. MOTU Audio Express
  5. Native Instruments Audio 6
  6. Audient iD14
 
These are pretty much designed with recording in mind, and I don't have any plans for that...currently. The MOTU Audio Express seems to be the best package out of the ones I found myself, but I have no need for the recording features at this time, nor do I have active monitors with their own power sources. It looks like it's going to come down to the Emotiva Stealth DC-1, Schiit Magni 2U/Asgard 2, or your original recommendation: the Audio-GD NFB-11.
 
Although the Emotiva is out of my original budget, it keeps looking more appealing, as I may just be able to get this and call it a day on source components. Then I can focus on upgrading speakers and headphones in the future for computer audio, at least...and that is a very alluring prospect. I'm thoroughly satisfied with my K702 Annies though for the foreseeable future. I read comments on the boards that the DC-1 pairs well with them, and I need something that will.

Unless you have anymore DAC/headphone amp/preamp suggestions, I guess I have some comparison research to do but at least the field has been greatly narrowed down.

There was a thread I read on here where someone confirmed something I read in a Gizmodo article about $100-$1,000 equipment getting you about 90% of the way to aural nirvana. 90% sounds good to me. I am fortunate not to be tied to my original stated budget. I'm sorry if anyone is irked I've changed my mind on this, because they helped when I had a different goal in mind.
 
Oct 13, 2016 at 10:35 PM Post #51 of 64
IMO,
 
My setup: Bifrost -> Asgard 2 as Preamp -> Yamaha HS7 speakers sounds very close to nearfield audio nirvana listening. I still can't believe that a run-of-the mill studio monitors can sound like a small Hi-Fi loudspeakers. IMO, they produce incredible midrange and tonality as well as extended yet non-fatiguing highs. All in all costing just about $1000. I don't even use my AKG K712 headphones anymore since the Yamahas blow it out of the water in sound quality.
 
Oct 14, 2016 at 9:56 AM Post #52 of 64
​OK, that's what I was going to do: set them to a loud level I can tolerate as max. That is done with the preamp in chain or before adding it? But then I also have to adjust the levels on the crossover, right? What are those trim controls for on the crossover again?


The levels on the speaker are technically "after" the preamp, and you'd set them to a "high" level prior to putting the preamp in, but you can of course tweak it later (e.g. hook it all up, and then dial up the levels on the speakers to a happy point that corresponds with wherever you want to be "really loud" on the preamp). The adjustments on the crossover are useful for matching the level between the speakers (or whatever is "high") and the sub(s) (or whatever is "low").



​Oh OK, something that has drivers for each frequency range. Those are definitely expensive. So each unit would have three channels: highs, mids lows?


Yeah you can do active 3-way like that, or 4-way. It can get really nuts.

​I suppose, if you see Legos as a puzzle.
[rule]So I've been researching your suggestions (and found a few others along the way):
  • Focusrite 2i4
  • Focusrite 6i6
  • MOTU Microbook
  • MOTU Audio Express
  • Native Instruments Audio 6
  • Audient iD14

These are pretty much designed with recording in mind, and I don't have any plans for that...currently. The MOTU Audio Express seems to be the best package out of the ones I found myself, but I have no need for the recording features at this time, nor do I have active monitors with their own power sources. It looks like it's going to come down to the Emotiva Stealth DC-1, Schiit Magni 2U/Asgard 2, or your original recommendation: the Audio-GD NFB-11.


I never recommended an Audio-GD that I recall (I've never owned/used one - don't know much about them), but probably anything with line out (and more ideally if it has volume controls on that output) will work here. I've had the DC-1 in the past (actually the only unit from this list that I've owned) and while it sounded okay (was kind of flat/dead for my tastes), it got *REALLY* hot whenever it had power (e.g. even using it as just a DAC), and that ultimately caused me to return it, because I didn't like how hot it was running. Maybe mine was defective, maybe its designed to do this, I don't know. If you don't need the recording/pro audio kind of connectors and features I wouldn't spring for the device that offers them - it'll usually just mean more adapters and "ugh" moments when trying to plug-in consumer gear down the line.

Although the Emotiva is out of my original budget, it keeps looking more appealing, as I may just be able to get this and call it a day on source components. Then I can focus on upgrading speakers and headphones in the future for computer audio, at least...and that is a very alluring prospect. I'm thoroughly satisfied with my K702 Annies though for the foreseeable future. I read comments on the boards that the DC-1 pairs well with them, and I need something that will.


The DC-1 is an interesting component - it offers a lot of features and isn't huge while doing it. I never tried it with my K701 (owned them years apart), but from memory on both, I don't think that's a pairing I'd love - a fairly clinical, flat, etc amplifiers paired with fairly dry, analytical headphones...oh my. :triportsad: I mean, if you like that sound, of course that's liable to be heaven for you, but let's just say I'm decidedly *not* in that camp. :xf_eek:

If you do go the DC-1 route, it has a neat accessory component, the SP-1, which adds a phono preamp and analog input switching via a matching external box. It's a slick setup overall, from an aesthetic point of view.

Unless you have anymore DAC/headphone amp/preamp suggestions, I guess I have some comparison research to do but at least the field has been greatly narrowed down.


I like my TEAC, which is no longer in production. They have newer, and very similar looking, models that now do DSD as well. Lots of soundcards are competent for this as well, and I'd say honestly I don't buy the "hype" that a high end multimedia soundcard can be fully outclassed by some external widget just because said widget is external (this line of marketing has been going on for over a decade, and if anything internal soundcards have gotten signfiicantly better in that time).

There was a thread I read on here where someone confirmed something I read in a Gizmodo article about $100-$1,000 equipment getting you about 90% of the way to aural nirvana. 90% sounds good to me. I am fortunate not to be tied to my original stated budget. I'm sorry if anyone is irked I've changed my mind on this, because they helped when I had a different goal in mind.


I don't like using pricetags as benchmarks for gear, because it has a tendency to dismiss awesome values or forgive awesome ripoffs. I'll agree that generally speaking, you do get what you pay for, and higher end gear is generally higher priced, and generally correlates to better build quality, performance, etc. There's just some exceptions is all. I'd agree with Gizmodo, or anyone else, who concedes that diminishing returns are a real thing too - IMO there's no need to spend $10,000 or more to get really knock out sound (or "aural nirvana" - whatever that means), especially depending on your sonic preferences, and especially if used/clearance bin/etc gear is an option for your situation. This isn't to say $10,000 systems are a bad thing either - just that they don't have a monopoly on good sound.


IMO,

My setup: Bifrost -> Asgard 2 as Preamp -> Yamaha HS7 speakers sounds very close to nearfield audio nirvana listening. I still can't believe that a run-of-the mill studio monitors can sound like a small Hi-Fi loudspeakers. IMO, they produce incredible midrange and tonality as well as extended yet non-fatiguing highs. All in all costing just about $1000. I don't even use my AKG K712 headphones anymore since the Yamahas blow it out of the water in sound quality.


Having heard Yamaha active monitors a time or two over the years, I'd agree they're very good sounding (and often very sharp looking). Their passive hi-fi/home theater speakers aren't bad either. And apart from some of the odd limited edition stuff, generally represent a good value-for-money proposition too. :)
 
Oct 14, 2016 at 6:22 PM Post #53 of 64
I never recommended an Audio-GD that I recall (I've never owned/used one - don't know much about them), but probably anything with line out (and more ideally if it has volume controls on that output) will work here. I've had the DC-1 in the past (actually the only unit from this list that I've owned) and while it sounded okay (was kind of flat/dead for my tastes), it got *REALLY* hot whenever it had power (e.g. even using it as just a DAC), and that ultimately caused me to return it, because I didn't like how hot it was running. Maybe mine was defective, maybe its designed to do this, I don't know. If you don't need the recording/pro audio kind of connectors and features I wouldn't spring for the device that offers them - it'll usually just mean more adapters and "ugh" moments when trying to plug-in consumer gear down the line.

You're right, you didn't. That was ProtegeManiac, my bad.
 
I've had the DC-1 in the past (actually the only unit from this list that I've owned) and while it sounded okay (was kind of flat/dead for my tastes), it got *REALLY* hot whenever it had power (e.g. even using it as just a DAC), and that ultimately caused me to return it, because I didn't like how hot it was running. Maybe mine was defective, maybe its designed to do this, I don't know.
 
The DC-1 is an interesting component - it offers a lot of features and isn't huge while doing it. I never tried it with my K701 (owned them years apart), but from memory on both, I don't think that's a pairing I'd love - a fairly clinical, flat, etc amplifiers paired with fairly dry, analytical headphones...oh my.
triportsad.gif
I mean, if you like that sound, of course that's liable to be heaven for you, but let's just say I'm decidedly *not* in that camp.
redface.gif

I don't have the K701, but I did originally get the Q701 but couldn't stand the bumps. Whose idea was that?! >.< I have the K702 Annie. Perhaps I will have to look more into how it pairs. I couldn't tell you what kind of sound I like, since I've had little experience with different sound signatures: source components and outputs, so that leaves me at a disadvantage. It gets hot? Hmm, I haven't read any complaints about that so far. Well...all bets are off.
 
I like my TEAC, which is no longer in production. They have newer, and very similar looking, models that now do DSD as well. Lots of soundcards are competent for this as well, and I'd say honestly I don't buy the "hype" that a high end multimedia soundcard can be fully outclassed by some external widget just because said widget is external (this line of marketing has been going on for over a decade, and if anything internal soundcards have gotten signfiicantly better in that time).

Well, I guess I'm back where I started then. I'm happy with my soundcard, just not happy with the little resolution I have for adjusting the volume outside of Windows and lack of a dial to turn. How would I describe it? I have no idea. I guess I should compare it to what's on my motherboard someday. What model is your TEAC? Maybe I could get one used.
 
I don't like using pricetags as benchmarks for gear, because it has a tendency to dismiss awesome values or forgive awesome ripoffs. I'll agree that generally speaking, you do get what you pay for, and higher end gear is generally higher priced, and generally correlates to better build quality, performance, etc. There's just some exceptions is all. I'd agree with Gizmodo, or anyone else, who concedes that diminishing returns are a real thing too - IMO there's no need to spend $10,000 or more to get really knock out sound (or "aural nirvana" - whatever that means), especially depending on your sonic preferences, and especially if used/clearance bin/etc gear is an option for your situation. This isn't to say $10,000 systems are a bad thing either - just that they don't have a monopoly on good sound.

Thanks for your comments on this. I completely agree with your sentiments.
 
Never implied that. $100-$1,000 is a big range for damn good audio. That was my point: You don't have to spend a fortune to get great sound quality, and that's not why I had changed my mind on getting a DAC/headamp/preamp combo. I am very wary of falling down that audiophile hole. Crack is cheaper. Used is always an option, as long as it was well taken care of. I don't think I'll ever buy used headphones though. I don't like the idea something so personal was on someone else's head, like sharing hats. >_<
 
Having heard Yamaha active monitors a time or two over the years, I'd agree they're very good sounding (and often very sharp looking). Their passive hi-fi/home theater speakers aren't bad either. And apart from some of the odd limited edition stuff, generally represent a good value-for-money proposition too.
smily_headphones1.gif

I read Yamaha is the gold standard in monitors, but I have too much low sample music to ever warrant monitors, so it's loudspeakers for me. Anyway, that's for another time.
 
Quote:
  IMO,
 
My setup: Bifrost -> Asgard 2 as Preamp -> Yamaha HS7 speakers sounds very close to nearfield audio nirvana listening. I still can't believe that a run-of-the mill studio monitors can sound like a small Hi-Fi loudspeakers. IMO, they produce incredible midrange and tonality as well as extended yet non-fatiguing highs. All in all costing just about $1000. I don't even use my AKG K712 headphones anymore since the Yamahas blow it out of the water in sound quality.

Thanks for your suggestion! I rarely use my headphones, because even on extremely low volumes, they trigger my tinnitus to get louder temporarily. >_< It must be the sudden louder sounds while gaming. (Oh duh, I could just use a normalizer dynamic range compression...if I had something that supported that.) I mostly use my speakers, but I do have occasions where I do use phones, such as late at night so as not to disturb anyone. How do you like the Asgard 2? It's one of the solutions I'm thinking about.
 
Oct 14, 2016 at 8:14 PM Post #54 of 64
   
I read Yamaha is the gold standard in monitors, but I have too much low sample music to ever warrant monitors, so it's loudspeakers for me. Anyway, that's for another time.
Thanks for your suggestion! I rarely use my headphones, because even on extremely low volumes, they trigger my tinnitus to get louder temporarily. >_< It must be the sudden louder sounds while gaming. (Oh duh, I could just use a normalizer dynamic range compression...if I had something that supported that.) I mostly use my speakers, but I do have occasions where I do use phones, such as late at night so as not to disturb anyone. How do you like the Asgard 2? It's one of the solutions I'm thinking about.

 
I just use Spotify Premium via Fidelify program/app as my streaming service. No need for high res stuff since the Bifrost DAC actually sounds better with redbook and 96KHz files than 192KHz files.
 
As preamp, Asgard 2 seriously pumps ridiculous amount of power such that it only takes me to turn the knob at 9'oclock @ 75-80 dBA in high gain. Asgard 2 is perfect for bright neutral sounding monitors IMO since it is slightly warmer sounding than neutral in my ears, making the Yamaha's sound a tint warmer than neutral. If you audition any studio monitor and find it thin and fatiguing sounding, it's just a sign of poor synergy with the DAC/amp/Audio interface that is attached to them IMO. In my experience, Asgard 2's slight warm tonality signature transfers over to both its preamp and headphone outs so synergy between the powered speakers or headphones play a large role. To keep transparency to minium, you can to use a passive preamp such as Schiit SYS, but if you ever decide to get a neutral bright sounding monitors, Asgard 2 is a really good preamp for them.
 
Oct 14, 2016 at 9:22 PM Post #55 of 64
You're right, you didn't. That was ProtegeManiac, my bad.


Its all good - big threads can get confusing.

I don't have the K701, but I did originally get the Q701 but couldn't stand the bumps. Whose idea was that?! >.< I have the K702 Annie. Perhaps I will have to look more into how it pairs. I couldn't tell you what kind of sound I like, since I've had little experience with different sound signatures: source components and outputs, so that leaves me at a disadvantage. It gets hot? Hmm, I haven't read any complaints about that so far. Well...all bets are off.


Oh lordy, the whole "bumps" discussion. Had forgotten entirely about that...:ph34r: We need a new "dead horse" for that too - :deadhorse:

And yeah, the example of DC-1 that I had got very hot while on - and again maybe that's just normal, maybe mine was defective, maybe I'm just being too particular; I didn't exchange it to find out, the biggest reason being the kind of "flat" sound compared to my TEAC (UD-H01; not sure if my profile is up to date or not - it doesn't have a preamp but you can add something like SYS or Control Freak to its outputs) which is a bit warmer/sweeter sounding.

EDIT: Wanted to note, that "flat vs warm" comparison includes comparing the headphone amplifiers of both of them. Differences between them as pure sources (e.g. just using them as DACs) are much smaller, which comports with my general experience that differences between DACs are often pretty subtle.

Well, I guess I'm back where I started then. I'm happy with my soundcard, just not happy with the little resolution I have for adjusting the volume outside of Windows and lack of a dial to turn. How would I describe it? I have no idea. I guess I should compare it to what's on my motherboard someday. What model is your TEAC? Maybe I could get one used.


Honestly an outboard preamp on the soundcard is probably fine here.

Never implied that. $100-$1,000 is a big range for damn good audio. That was my point: You don't have to spend a fortune to get great sound quality, and that's not why I had changed my mind on getting a DAC/headamp/preamp combo. I am very wary of falling down that audiophile hole. Crack is cheaper. Used is always an option, as long as it was well taken care of. I don't think I'll ever buy used headphones though. I don't like the idea something so personal was on someone else's head, like sharing hats. >_<


I'd honestly agree with used headphones in most cases, but the gear thing absolutely. I was agreeing with you on the rest. :)

I read Yamaha is the gold standard in monitors, but I have too much low sample music to ever warrant monitors, so it's loudspeakers for me.


Genelec, Mackie, and Blue Sky are also good. Honestly good speakers (be them monitors, hi-fi speakers, whatever), headphones, etc are never going to be "bad" however certainly higher quality material will be better reflected with higher quality gear. I'd say that "source quality" is quickly becoming another one of those rabbit holes, with the recent hysteria surrounding infinite bitrate DC-to-light files and such. Now, a bunch of 96k ATRAC files are never going to sound good, but there's generally nothing wrong with higher bitrate MP3/WMA/OGG/etc, or even better sources like CD. :gs1000smile:
 
Oct 20, 2016 at 9:47 PM Post #56 of 64
  Quote:
 
Oh lordy, the whole "bumps" discussion. Had forgotten entirely about that...
ph34r.gif
We need a new "dead horse" for that too -
deadhorse.gif

 
...Is that a plastic bag over that horse's head?
 
And yeah, the example of DC-1 that I had got very hot while on - and again maybe that's just normal, maybe mine was defective, maybe I'm just being too particular; I didn't exchange it to find out, the biggest reason being the kind of "flat" sound compared to my TEAC (UD-H01; not sure if my profile is up to date or not - it doesn't have a preamp but you can add something like SYS or Control Freak to its outputs) which is a bit warmer/sweeter sounding.

I haven't read any serious concerns about heat from the DC-1, but there were a few that mentioned it got warm. I did however, read several comments/reviews that brought up heat regarding the Asgard 2.
 
 Honestly an outboard preamp on the soundcard is probably fine here.

But again, I would still have to control headphone volume through Windows. >_< I don't use headphones much, but when I do, I think I could benefit from greater latitude on the dial.

I've been researching the Magni 2U, Asgard, and Stealth, and I think the Asgard is out. It would really help if I could listen to all these, as I think that would give me an "a-ha" moment and know exactly what I want. Unfortunately, there isn't a Canjam in my area until next year. u_u
 
Several reviews comment on the Asgard's temperature, varying from "hot to the touch," to "don't block the vent or cook on it," to "it gets warm to the touch, (actually 116 F)". I don't know what to believe. It's possible there are temperature variances due to manufacturing tolerances, but it's just as likely the "human touch" factor.
 
I read a review that the Stealth doesn't support Dolby Digital, so I guess it wouldn't work for gaming? I thought if I used a digital connection, the DSP would be retained...or does that require analog out from the STX to force the soundcard to do the processing? There were also a few complaints of headphones being fried. Don't know if this was user error or a fault. I also read some concerns about the 3.5 mm jacks having a potential to fail in the future, since they tend to be fragile. From what I've read, no one has experienced this, but since they auto-switch, there's supposedly a chance it could fail with the headphone jack enabled. I guess using a 3.5 mm adapter is a feasible workaround. I also hate blue LEDs, would have to hope polarizing film would cut down enough, since it's an actual information display and not just an annoying power LED like on my A5s. (Electrical tape works wonders. ^_^) The Stealth does have brightness adjustment but even the lowest setting might be obnoxious. I don't need the display tricking my body into staying awake.
 
I also noticed none of these have any kind of auto-sleep capability, where they go to standby after an extended amount of inactivity and turn on when they sense a signal again. Both my speakers and sub have this feature. Why would they overlook this? Do audio companies not care about the environment?
 
I recently reconfigured the low pass filter on my sub. When I passed an 80 Hz tone through it, even with it set to the lowest (40 Hz) something was getting through. It just became clearer as I turned the dial towards the tone's frequency. It must be some overtones getting through? So as you stated, the filter isn't an effective method of crossover. 
 
I just found out that the STX is only capable of multi-channel audio through the S/PDIF out. Could that be why its crossover doesn't work?
 
Oct 21, 2016 at 3:18 AM Post #57 of 64
  Quote:


...Is that a plastic bag over that horse's head?


No.

It's a bridal veil, and its wearing Sennheiser HD 580/6x0 headphones. It's an old smiley, and pokes fun at "beating the horse to death" over "are Sennheiser's veiled?" - we could do with one for the AKGs and their bumps at this point too...:rolleyes: :p

I haven't read any serious concerns about heat from the DC-1, but there were a few that mentioned it got warm. I did however, read several comments/reviews that brought up heat regarding the Asgard 2.


Asgard is a Class A amplifier - it will get warm, and that's just part of it. I have a Class A HP amplifier (not Asgard) and yes, it gets warm when its working, and that's just part of Class A. But that's also disclosed in the documentation and (ideally) the device is designed to handle it. I'm not sure what was going on with the DC-1 I tried, but I wouldn't run screaming from a Class A amplifier that runs warm, as long as you don't mind the heat (e.g. it can be placed somewhere it won't cause damage).

But again, I would still have to control headphone volume through Windows. >_< I don't use headphones much, but when I do, I think I could benefit from greater latitude on the dial.


Passive controller, get a headphone amp + preamp combo, get a headphone amp with loop outputs and separate preamp (like SYS), etc. There's options.

[rule]I've been researching the Magni 2U, Asgard, and Stealth, and I think the Asgard is out. It would really help if I could listen to all these, as I think that would give me an "a-ha" moment and know exactly what I want. Unfortunately, there isn't a Canjam in my area until next year. u_u

Several reviews comment on the Asgard's temperature, varying from "hot to the touch," to "don't block the vent or cook on it," to "it gets warm to the touch, (actually 116 F)". I don't know what to believe. It's possible there are temperature variances due to manufacturing tolerances, but it's just as likely the "human touch" factor.


If the heat is going to bother you, then yeah I'd look at non-Class A amplifiers. IIRC Magni is not Class A.

I read a review that the Stealth doesn't support Dolby Digital, so I guess it wouldn't work for gaming? I thought if I used a digital connection, the DSP would be retained...or does that require analog out from the STX to force the soundcard to do the processing?


No it doesn't support Dolby Digital, but then again neither do any other hi-fi DACs. They support stereo PCM. The Xonar will send that out just fine, and do whatever "processing" it needs to do (in fact, to save myself retyping this, go here and read this: http://www.head-fi.org/t/823295/audio-processing-through-onboard-audio-or-soundcard#post_12945338). There's no benefit to Dolby Digital output for headphones, unless you have some outboard hardware that does Dolby Headphone (e.g. some AV receivers do this), otherwise its just going to have to be downmixed to stereo; why not just start with the stereo feed?

There were also a few complaints of headphones being fried. Don't know if this was user error or a fault. I also read some concerns about the 3.5 mm jacks having a potential to fail in the future, since they tend to be fragile. From what I've read, no one has experienced this, but since they auto-switch, there's supposedly a chance it could fail with the headphone jack enabled. I guess using a 3.5 mm adapter is a feasible workaround...as long as the adapter itself doesn't fool the Stealth into switching to headphones.


I've never understood why people distrust 3.5mm jacks but they do; I've never had an issue with them apart from constantly needing adapters (Grado makes an excellent one). As far as the build on the DC-1, IME it was top rate. No idea about "headphones being fried" but for me that's a MASSIVE red flag given how much some headphones can cost. Plugging in a 3.5mm to 6.3mm adapter (which you'll end up having to do with most headphones anyways) will trip its auto-sense and it will switch to headphones.

I also hate blue LEDs, would have to hope polarizing film would cut down enough, since it's an actual information display and not just an annoying power LED like on my A5s. (Electrical tape works wonders. ^_^) The Stealth does have brightness adjustment but even the lowest setting might be obnoxious. I don't need the display tricking my body into staying awake.


It is brighter than the sun. And it isn't just "blue" - its glowing-fluorescent-atomic-bright blue. The lowest setting is barely tolerable - the highest setting is, to quote Goldfinger, powerful enough to project a dot on the moon. I'm exaggerating but I absolutely know what you're talking about, and your pain is real. The DC-1 is not the device for you if that's an issue. For a product labeled "Stealth" (and marketed for desktop use) I was surprised by how incredibly bright it was.

Honestly I was left with mixed feelings about the DC-1 - on one hand the build quality, fit and finish, etc was excellent, the features were good, the connectivity was good, but the form factor/implementation is just odd (why doesn't it have feet? why does it only offer 3.5mm jacks despite being pretty big? why can't it have more buttons? why are some buttons on the back? why is it so deep and narrow? why is the texturing on the knob so rough/aggressive? why is the remote so heavy? why is the remote metal? why does the remote require a screwdriver to change the batteries?), the sound was kind of flat, and (at least for mine) it got really hot. Certainly some good ideas went into making it, and it tries to do a lot of things in a single box (and I think largely succeeds), but there's more than a few "features" that raise an eyebrow. :popcorn:


I also noticed none of these have any kind of auto-sleep capability, where they go to standby after an extended amount of inactivity and turn on when they sense a signal again. Both my speakers and sub have this feature. Why would they overlook this? Do audio companies not care about the environment?


Some thoughts on this:

1) "Auto Sleep" or "Auto Standby" is more of a marketing feel good feature than "we care about the environment" in this kind of equipment (e.g. greenwashing). The power draw simply isn't high enough to be of significant concern (usually we're talking <10W when "on" - it isn't a big AV receiver or high performance gaming computer that can draw ~1000W under load). For very efficient switching amplifiers (e.g. in a subwoofer) its more of a convenience than a "power saver" (so that the devices turn themselves on when needed (e.g. in response to some "master" device coming on); generally their "idle" power draw is similarly low to their "standby" power draw though).

2) "Auto Sleep" or "Auto Standby" requires more circuitry and logic than a lot of manufacturers are willing to put into simpler/smaller products (especially desktop oriented products, as opposed to stuff that assumes its going to be on a shelf 10ft across the room from you) - a lot of desktop audio solutions aren't built around supervisor ICs, microprocessors, very complex firmware, high level operating system, etc like a Blu-ray player or game console (or whatever) has. So it would add a lot of extra complexity to the design, for no real gain (see #1).



I recently reconfigured the low pass filter on my sub. When I passed an 80 Hz tone through it, even with it set to the lowest (40 Hz) something was getting through. It just became clearer as I turned the dial towards the tone's frequency. It must be some overtones getting through? So as you stated, the filter isn't an effective method of crossover. 


It's not a brick-wall. It's probably like 12 or 24 dB/octave (the manual may or may not have this information in it - some do some don't), so while the filter point may be at 40 Hz, signals higher than 40 Hz will get thru, to a point (it isn't going to have 10 kHz coming thru, but its not a brick wall where 41 Hz doesn't get to go by, but 40 Hz does).

I just found out that the STX is only capable of multi-channel audio through the S/PDIF out. Could that be why its crossover doesn't work?


The crossover "doesn't work" because you're sending out stereo line level and trying to do bass management thru it (and why the driver lets you do this is beyond me - its dumb) - there is absolutely no universe wherein such a wiring configuration can magically yield a crossover'd signal from that because the wiring simply doesn't support it (basically a crossover is like a splitter - how are you splitting the signal here?). If you had three lines out (e.g. actual 2.1 wiring) then it could work, assuming the driver/software also did it, but I've never seen a PC audio solution that can actually do legitimate 2.1 or 4.1, and I'll freely agree that that's stupid. The driver and hardware already support it for 5.1, 6.1, 7.1, etc so what's so hard about doing it for 4.1 or 2.1? (If I had to guess it's probably that PC speakers went 2.1 with internal crossovers simply because the satellites couldn't produce good bass, but they're still wired as if they're 2.0, and the same is largely true of "4.1" or "4.2" systems, and manufacturers just had to play along. But it's still dumb.) Home theater products can generally do n.1 without issue, because everything is there in the decoder to do it already, and its fine accepting whatever arbitrary configuration; using the Technics decoder I mentioned earlier as an example, you could feed in 5.1 from the soundcard, set its output to 2.1 (or 3.1, or 4.1, etc) and it will handle all of the appropriate remapping (because that's what a Dolby Digital decoder is supposed to do). More hi-fi products are usually going to do 2.0 and if you want a crossover or bass management or what-have-you you're going to have to add it downstream in the chain, which is also fine, just a different way of approaching things. Where the "hi-fi approach" can be "less than" is if you want multi-channel output (because it doesn't have the connections to do it proper).
 
Oct 21, 2016 at 1:29 PM Post #58 of 64
...That's a very liberal interpretation of a smiley.
 
Quote:
It is brighter than the sun. And it isn't just "blue" - its glowing-fluorescent-atomic-bright blue. The lowest setting is barely tolerable - the highest setting is, to quote Goldfinger, powerful enough to project a dot on the moon. I'm exaggerating but I absolutely know what you're talking about, and your pain is real. The DC-1 is not the device for you if that's an issue. For a product labeled "Stealth" (and marketed for desktop use) I was surprised by how incredibly bright it was.

Haha, never experienced an OLED screen before, huh? Yeah, the colors are rich and bright, but they don't have to be blinding. Of course a simple display like on the Stealth isn't going to have much options in regards to tweaking the brightness. They are really great when used appropriately. My smartphone has one and images are absolutely gorgeous on it. The bottom line is, I just hate the electronics industry's obsession with blue LEDs. Give me green or red or any other warm color any day, but blue and higher wavelengths I want nothing to do with...including white, which is usually "cool white," which is just a blue LED with phosphorescent coating (same principle fluorescent lights work on). My monitor also has blue power LED that got the electrical tape treatment.
 
It really seems like I need to see (and hear) these things in person before buying anything.
 
1) "Auto Sleep" or "Auto Standby" is more of a marketing feel good feature than "we care about the environment" in this kind of equipment (e.g. greenwashing). The power draw simply isn't high enough to be of significant concern (usually we're talking <10W when "on" - it isn't a big AV receiver or high performance gaming computer that can draw ~1000W under load). For very efficient switching amplifiers (e.g. in a subwoofer) its more of a convenience than a "power saver" (so that the devices turn themselves on when needed (e.g. in response to some "master" device coming on); generally their "idle" power draw is similarly low to their "standby" power draw though).

Of course it's for marketing. Most businesses don't give a damn about the environment. Call me crazy, but every little bit helps. And even gaming computers don't draw 1 KW. Maybe if it uses multiple graphics cards, it might, but even with a single, high-end card, you won't be pulling that much under load and certainly not when idle. A PC at idle might use 200-300 W. So when people buy a power supply with the highest output, they're really screwing themselves over, as they are running nowhere near the peak efficiency range, which is 60-80% of the PSU's output rating during whatever tasks you most commonly do on your computer. But I digress...
 
It's not a brick-wall. It's probably like 12 or 24 dB/octave (the manual may or may not have this information in it - some do some don't), so while the filter point may be at 40 Hz, signals higher than 40 Hz will get thru, to a point (it isn't going to have 10 kHz coming thru, but its not a brick wall where 41 Hz doesn't get to go by, but 40 Hz does).

Ah OK, I didn't realize it would just apply a massive cut to the frequencies above the setting. Nope, manual had no info on this. I posted a link in an earlier post, I think. Just said to use your speaker's stated frequency response range as a guide to dialing it in.
 
 
The crossover "doesn't work" because you're sending out stereo line level and trying to do bass management thru it (and why the driver lets you do this is beyond me - its dumb) - there is absolutely no universe wherein such a wiring configuration can magically yield a crossover'd signal from that because the wiring simply doesn't support it (basically a crossover is like a splitter - how are you splitting the signal here?). If you had three lines out (e.g. actual 2.1 wiring) then it could work, assuming the driver/software also did it, but I've never seen a PC audio solution that can actually do legitimate 2.1 or 4.1, and I'll freely agree that that's stupid. The driver and hardware already support it for 5.1, 6.1, 7.1, etc so what's so hard about doing it for 4.1 or 2.1? (If I had to guess it's probably that PC speakers went 2.1 with internal crossovers simply because the satellites couldn't produce good bass, but they're still wired as if they're 2.0, and the same is largely true of "4.1" or "4.2" systems, and manufacturers just had to play along. But it's still dumb.) Home theater products can generally do n.1 without issue, because everything is there in the decoder to do it already, and its fine accepting whatever arbitrary configuration; using the Technics decoder I mentioned earlier as an example, you could feed in 5.1 from the soundcard, set its output to 2.1 (or 3.1, or 4.1, etc) and it will handle all of the appropriate remapping (because that's what a Dolby Digital decoder is supposed to do). More hi-fi products are usually going to do 2.0 and if you want a crossover or bass management or what-have-you you're going to have to add it downstream in the chain, which is also fine, just a different way of approaching things. Where the "hi-fi approach" can be "less than" is if you want multi-channel output (because it doesn't have the connections to do it proper).

OK, so more marketing then with the "crossover" feature in the drivers. Yeah, I don't think I've ever seen a soundcard with a sub output, probably because PC speakers aren't designed with that kind of thing in mind. In my experience, the power connects to the sub, and the left speaker connects to the card and right speaker, so I guess that's not true 2.1 either, nor is it when the speaker connecting to the card is directly powered or however I have my setup. Makes sense, I guess. Of course, with these higher end cards, you'd think they might have a separate LFE output. The STX only has the one stereo speaker out. There is Dolby Virtual Speaker, this is not remapping either? I guess some day I'll invest in a AVR...someday and have a regular soundcard for DSP processing. The STX II has a daughterboard expansion for 7.1 support. I guess this was a big complaint about the original. I know the clock was, which they also improved on the II.
 
Oct 21, 2016 at 10:08 PM Post #59 of 64
...That's a very liberal interpretation of a smiley


That is literally that smiley's history. It's unique to Head-Fi and has been around for years. I used to know (but have since forgotten) who actually made it too. I'm sure that information is still present somewhere.

Haha, never experienced an OLED screen before, huh? Yeah, the colors are rich and bright, but they don't have to be blinding.


No, I have. And I have a few devices with OLED screens. The Stealth's is just *very* bright. Just like some LEDs are subdued and acceptable, and others are bright enough to do Lasik. :ph34r:

Of course a simple display like on the Stealth isn't going to have much options in regards to tweaking the brightness. They are really great when used appropriately. My smartphone has one and images are absolutely gorgeous on it. The bottom line is, I just hate the electronics industry's obsession with blue LEDs. Give me green or red or any other warm color any day, but blue and higher wavelengths I want nothing to do with...including white, which is usually "cool white," which is just a blue LED with phosphorescent coating (same principle fluorescent lights work on). My monitor also has blue power LED that got the electrical tape treatment.


I'm with you - I don't know what the obsession with blue is in recent years. I'm old enough to remember when everything was amber or green, and I don't get what the problem was with any of that. :xf_eek:

It really seems like I need to see (and hear) these things in person before buying anything.


Generally I'd agree with this, but unfortunately that may be hard (if not impossible) depending on the gear you want to try, and so forth. But thankfully a lot of online retailers allow in-home trials or have good return policies, so ultimately what it comes down to is make the best decision you can based on the information you *can* get, and try something with the knowledge that it may be returned for something else. And that's that.

Of course it's for marketing. Most businesses don't give a damn about the environment.


Aye.

Call me crazy, but every little bit helps.


So is it really so hard to just turn the device off yourself? Instead of giving up continuous running power for the supervisor IC to do that for you? :p (yes I'm being a little facetious here)

And even gaming computers don't draw 1 KW. Maybe if it uses multiple graphics cards, it might, but even with a single, high-end card, you won't be pulling that much under load and certainly not when idle. A PC at idle might use 200-300 W. So when people buy a power supply with the highest output, they're really screwing themselves over, as they are running nowhere near the peak efficiency range, which is 60-80% of the PSU's output rating during whatever tasks you most commonly do on your computer. But I digress...


Alright, we can have that conversation too :D:

1) A high end, and I mean legitimately high end, gaming PC can use around 1kW under full load today. I'm talking multiple top-shelf GPUs, top shelf CPUs, elaborate cooling system, multiple displays, etc. The probably most extreme consumer implementation I can think of would be LinusTechTips' "7 Gamers 1 PC" build which was drawing around 1600W at the wall under load, and is probably about the limit of what you can do with off the shelf consumer hardware. Knocking that down to something that a single power user would have, ~1kW isn't so insane with a top-shelf 2011 platform and 2-4 high end cards (a quartet of top-end cards is going to be 1000W at peak on its own, for example). A more mid-range system with a single graphics card and high end CPU can still do >500W, especially if you're overclocking (and I can "cheat" here and include really nutty graphics hardware, like Devil13 or Titan Z, and get the power draw up there to the nosebleeds).

2) 200-300W is disgusting for a modern system at idle (and by modern I mean like "last 8 years"). Modern *everything* throttles a lot better than that (or it darn well should), to the point that even "nutty" configurations will still idle at <200W as long as you aren't defeating power saving features. Modern multi-GPU platforms will disable the slave GPUs at idle (if they aren't driving monitors), and GPUs throttle themselves down so well as to use almost nothing when not working heavily; ditto on CPUs (to say nothing of the general decrease in CPU power consumption over the last ten years). Roll the clock back to say, ~2005, and have a complete QuadFX "Quadfather" system, and yeah you might realize 300W+ at idle, but that's not contemporary by any means.

3) Modern 80+ SMPS are efficient at any loading (its part of the 80 Plus certificate), especially the "higher" levels of 80+ (e.g. Gold, Platinum, Titanium) - buying a larger power supply isn't "screwing yourself over" or anything of the sort, and the absolute top capacity units (e.g. Corsair AX1500i, EVGA SuperNOVA 1600W Titanium, etc) are going to be more efficient at low output than most economy 300-400W PSUs (e.g. both driving 100W out) simply because they're that much better overall.* The era of SMPS only being "good" at ~50% loading is long since gone, and this is deliberate as power saving features have improved on contemporary PC hardware - if the PSU becomes unstable or inefficient at low draw it kind of defeats the purpose of the hardware throttling its consumption down. Generally speaking there's no downside to surplus capacity, but there can be a lot of problems if you're trying to push the PSU at 80-100% of its rated output for extended periods (usually heat related).

* Don't believe me? Believe the numbers:
http://www.jonnyguru.com/modules.php?name=NDReviews&op=Story4&reid=378
http://www.jonnyguru.com/modules.php?name=NDReviews&op=Story4&reid=489

Compare numbers at the ~300W point since that's common to both tests. Is this a "fair" comparison? Maybe not, but you aren't getting 1kW+ PSUs that aren't putting up excellent efficiency numbers because nobody is doing split-phase, and nobody wants to deal with the waste heat, so in terms of "actual products that you can buy" its a thing. There are *some* smaller capacity units that also post up >90% efficiency numbers, but they're usually overpriced.



Ah OK, I didn't realize it would just apply a massive cut to the frequencies above the setting.


That's all a high-pass/low-pass/crossover is going to do. There are some really aggressive crossover units out there that can do really steep roll-off (like 48 dB/oct or 96 dB/oct) but I honestly can't imagine a good use for them at playback.

Nope, manual had no info on this.


c'est la vie

Just said to use your speaker's stated frequency response range as a guide to dialing it in.


And if it was an actual crossover that'd be great, but I guess better than nothing. :rolleyes:

OK, so more marketing then with the "crossover" feature in the drivers.


I honestly would guess its probably more that it *is* a valid setting in multi-ch output, and nobody ever thought to nix that setting when not in multi-ch, than some sort of advertising fluff.

Yeah, I don't think I've ever seen a soundcard with a sub output, probably because PC speakers aren't designed with that kind of thing in mind.


It's there and it isn't. 5.1 (or 6.1, or 7.1, etc) cards will generally have a "Center/Sub" output, and 5.1 (or higher) speakers will generally have TRS connections that include a line for that Center/Sub connection, which gives them a direct line for the sub. In theory there's no reason you can't just send the .1 out on that and not have the center output active, but I've never seen that implemented. PC speakers are weird, I think largely because there's never been a big push towards standardization/common-ness, especially when you go back to the era of true "multimedia hardware" being a thing, and various configurations were available from a huge range of manufacturers. I think Logitech is the only one still doing 5.1 PC speakers these days, and those accept digital input alongside analog.

In my experience, the power connects to the sub, and the left speaker connects to the card and right speaker, so I guess that's not true 2.1 either, nor is it when the speaker connecting to the card is directly powered or however I have my setup.


Usually in a 2.1 (or n.1) PC speaker setup, the amplifier is built-in to the subwoofer's enclosure because its the biggest space, so that's where AC power has to connect, and everything connects back to it as well. Of course this isn't standardized in any way, and all sorts of proprietary stuff is out there too (e.g. you have signal and power sharing an umbilical between the sub/amp and a speaker that doubles as a control module or whatever else a designer/manufacturer thought looked cool, would be more ergonomic, etc). Now technically those setups can be considered "true 2.1" because they have a crossover in there - so you're taking stereo line level from the card -> device input, which has the crossover, and then it sends the crossed signals out to the amplifiers (that's more efficient than doing it the other way), and then on to the speakers. And that crossover point is fixed based on assumptions/knowledge about the individual speakers in the package.

However in recent years, "PC speakers" have become the black sheep of desktop audio, and "multimedia hardware" has pretty much curled up and died, so the hip and trendy thing to do is to take a pair of powered active monitors and hook those up to your PC. But people want a subwoofer because they want some more boom boom, and then you get endless "but how do I plug together????" questions because the PC isn't really equipped for that connectivity, and for [who knows why] nobody has really stepped in to fill this niche in a nice way. I'm not saying going back to the "old" style of speakers is a universally better thing, but it was certainly more straight-forward in terms of connectivity and use.

Makes sense, I guess. Of course, with these higher end cards, you'd think they might have a separate LFE output. The STX only has the one stereo speaker out. There is Dolby Virtual Speaker, this is not remapping either? I guess some day I'll invest in a AVR...someday and have a regular soundcard for DSP processing. The STX II has a daughterboard expansion for 7.1 support. I guess this was a big complaint about the original. I know the clock was, which they also improved on the II.


STX is one of those weird "for audiophiles 2ch only" devices that were trendy a few years ago. I never understood the rationale - you take an excellent multi-ch codec or audio processor which probably has pretty solid drivers behind it (e.g. C-Media, Creative, VIA, whatever) and then strip it down to 2ch only and charge people extra dinero for less features. :confused:

Cards that have n.1 output will have separate LFE connections, but again I've never seen it implemented where it can do 2.1 or 4.1 on the card - it seems to assume you're going to use a package system that brings its own crossover. This is dumb even in the world of AVRs, because generally speaking AVRs won't digitize their multi-channel inputs, so there's no bass management, time alignment, etc there (there's two units that I'm aware of that actually digitize their multi-channel inputs and can do bass management, time alignment, etc; the cheaper one was around $12,000 when it was in production, the more expensive one was about thrice that), and not all cards offer that functionality. Of course, back in the day (before DDL and DTSC) this was better than nothing.

The multi-channel RCA connections were en vogue more recently, but honestly I never got the appeal - its like spend (often a lot of) extra money to save having to buy a few bucks of TRS to RCA adapters. And its also something that came about *after* DDL/DTSC, and generally those cards offer one or both of those suites, so you could just use that and let the AVR do its thing with a digital signal. Or use HDMI from a graphics card.

So anyways, what does this matter? If you want a proper 2.1 setup you need a crossover from the 2ch output - older style PC speakers are doing that internally and it works as well as it works, but the monitor + sub thing will require an external box.

Dolby Virtual Speaker is designed to simulate surround sound from stereo speakers. The card/drivers/etc (throw it in a black box and don't worry about *where* it happens) should be taking your 5.1 or whatever and making it 2.0 for output, and Virtual Speaker can act upon multi-ch signals to the output, but whether or not you like the effect is up to your preference. I've tried a few systems with VS in the past and honestly I'm not wowed by it, but its a neat feature to toy around with.

The era of hardware-assisted audio is long since come and gone - there's really no point these days, as nothing is using it. Just get a nice codec/output device and be happy with software implementations that "just work." :cool:
 
Oct 28, 2016 at 5:33 PM Post #60 of 64
That is literally that smiley's history. It's unique to Head-Fi and has been around for years. I used to know (but have since forgotten) who actually made it too. I'm sure that information is still present somewhere.

I'm not fluent in the culture of Head-Fi. I'm a newb. '^_^

I'm with you - I don't know what the obsession with blue is in recent years. I'm old enough to remember when everything was amber or green, and I don't get what the problem was with any of that.
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​I read an article long ago that it took a lot of time, money, and research to develop the first blue LED. The author concluded the attitude was, "they spent all this money creating them, might as well use them!" I call BS, because you really think companies cared how much it took to develop blue LEDs? But red, green, and blue (or blue plus a phosphorescent coating) make white light, so blue LEDs are a necessary evil. They just don't need to be everywhere!

 So is it really so hard to just turn the device off yourself? Instead of giving up continuous running power for the supervisor IC to do that for you?
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(yes I'm being a little facetious here)

In a word...yes. Sometimes I fall asleep with the computer on or I walk away from an unplanned extended period of time. My computer has a sleep timer, so I don't have to worry about this usually, unless I've changed the power profile. Yes, I would prefer an IC to do this for me when the situation arises. I am that lazy. ^_^
 
Quote:
 1) A high end, and I mean legitimately high end, gaming PC can use around 1kW under full load today. I'm talking multiple top-shelf GPUs, top shelf CPUs, elaborate cooling system, multiple displays, etc. The probably most extreme consumer implementation I can think of would be LinusTechTips' "7 Gamers 1 PC" build which was drawing around 1600W at the wall under load, and is probably about the limit of what you can do with off the shelf consumer hardware. Knocking that down to something that a single power user would have, ~1kW isn't so insane with a top-shelf 2011 platform and 2-4 high end cards (a quartet of top-end cards is going to be 1000W at peak on its own, for example). A more mid-range system with a single graphics card and high end CPU can still do >500W, especially if you're overclocking (and I can "cheat" here and include really nutty graphics hardware, like Devil13 or Titan Z, and get the power draw up there to the nosebleeds).

​I did say, "maybe if it uses multiple graphics cards." I know it's entirely possible for a computer to use 1 KW, but most computers won't. The example you've cited is an extreme example of a gaming computer.

 2) 200-300W is disgusting for a modern system at idle (and by modern I mean like "last 8 years"). Modern *everything* throttles a lot better than that (or it darn well should), to the point that even "nutty" configurations will still idle at <200W as long as you aren't defeating power saving features. Modern multi-GPU platforms will disable the slave GPUs at idle (if they aren't driving monitors), and GPUs throttle themselves down so well as to use almost nothing when not working heavily; ditto on CPUs (to say nothing of the general decrease in CPU power consumption over the last ten years). Roll the clock back to say, ~2005, and have a complete QuadFX "Quadfather" system, and yeah you might realize 300W+ at idle, but that's not contemporary by any means.

3) Modern 80+ SMPS are efficient at any loading (its part of the 80 Plus certificate), especially the "higher" levels of 80+ (e.g. Gold, Platinum, Titanium) - buying a larger power supply isn't "screwing yourself over" or anything of the sort, and the absolute top capacity units (e.g. Corsair AX1500i, EVGA SuperNOVA 1600W Titanium, etc) are going to be more efficient at low output than most economy 300-400W PSUs (e.g. both driving 100W out) simply because they're that much better overall.* The era of SMPS only being "good" at ~50% loading is long since gone, and this is deliberate as power saving features have improved on contemporary PC hardware - if the PSU becomes unstable or inefficient at low draw it kind of defeats the purpose of the hardware throttling its consumption down. Generally speaking there's no downside to surplus capacity, but there can be a lot of problems if you're trying to push the PSU at 80-100% of its rated output for extended periods (usually heat related).

​I've not heard about this, but it's been years since I had to buy a PSU, so I'm not going to argue. I will have to look into this and get back to you. Although, the 80+ rating is very misleading. You need to look at the hard numbers, like JohnnyGuru gives to make an informed choice on efficiency.

Usually in a 2.1 (or n.1) PC speaker setup, the amplifier is built-in to the subwoofer's enclosure because its the biggest space, so that's where AC power has to connect, and everything connects back to it as well. Of course this isn't standardized in any way, and all sorts of proprietary stuff is out there too (e.g. you have signal and power sharing an umbilical between the sub/amp and a speaker that doubles as a control module or whatever else a designer/manufacturer thought looked cool, would be more ergonomic, etc). Now technically those setups can be considered "true 2.1" because they have a crossover in there - so you're taking stereo line level from the card -> device input, which has the crossover, and then it sends the crossed signals out to the amplifiers (that's more efficient than doing it the other way), and then on to the speakers. And that crossover point is fixed based on assumptions/knowledge about the individual speakers in the package.

​However in recent years, "PC speakers" have become the black sheep of desktop audio, and "multimedia hardware" has pretty much curled up and died, so the hip and trendy thing to do is to take a pair of powered active monitors and hook those up to your PC. But people want a subwoofer because they want some more boom boom, and then you get endless "but how do I plug together????" questions because the PC isn't really equipped for that connectivity, and for [who knows why] nobody has really stepped in to fill this niche in a nice way. I'm not saying going back to the "old" style of speakers is a universally better thing, but it was certainly more straight-forward in terms of connectivity and use.

​I always wondered why the sub got the power cord. I too have this connectivity problem you speak of. I felt it was strange to have the signal go from the speakers to the sub. It feels like it should be the reverse, if it has to be chained at all. Your suggestion of the crossover solves that as well as the crossover problem itself. A lot of the decline of PC audio has to do with Microsoft not supporting hardware audio processing after XP. Apparently, 90% of the problems people reported in XP were audio-related.
 
STX is one of those weird "for audiophiles 2ch only" devices that were trendy a few years ago. I never understood the rationale - you take an excellent multi-ch codec or audio processor which probably has pretty solid drivers behind it (e.g. C-Media, Creative, VIA, whatever) and then strip it down to 2ch only and charge people extra dinero for less features.
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​Hahahaha!!!!! When you put it this way, it makes perfect sense. ^o^
  1. Strip off features of a card
  2. ​Add some hi-fi improvements
  3. ​Slap "audiophile" on packaging
  4. ​Charge more money for stripped down version of card
 
I don't consider myself an audiophile, but the packaging for the STX even says, "124 dB SNR / Headphone amp card for Audiophiles." They knew exactly what they were doing in the Asus marketing department.
 
 Cards that have n.1 output will have separate LFE connections, but again I've never seen it implemented where it can do 2.1 or 4.1 on the card - it seems to assume you're going to use a package system that brings its own crossover. This is dumb even in the world of AVRs, because generally speaking AVRs won't digitize their multi-channel inputs, so there's no bass management, time alignment, etc there (there's two units that I'm aware of that actually digitize their multi-channel inputs and can do bass management, time alignment, etc; the cheaper one was around $12,000 when it was in production, the more expensive one was about thrice that), and not all cards offer that functionality. Of course, back in the day (before DDL and DTSC) this was better than nothing.

​In my experience, regarding analog outputs, n.1 cards usually have one TRS input for the mic and four TRS outputs:
  1. ​Headphones
  2. ​Front
  3. ​Rear
A 7.1 card would have an additional output for the sides. I've not seen a card with a separate sub output. Typically the sub is handled through the Front or Center output. I don't understand how Front and Sub aren't standardized outputs on soundcards. It's inconceivable! A receiver wouldn't put the sub on the same channel as the front speakers.
 

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