[Andrew Seeley]

The 5 center channel [Fronts]- and 2 corner fronts-Atmos channels are larger than the satellites.
I didn't picture those, but they are like 2ft by 2ft per center speaker box (voicing and front-focused)
All of the speakers are projected at one Focal point in the theaters center Seat. ...Which is nice...

Brining up the rear wall are 7 channels. You can count the pictured 8 on the sides and Five, by 2 rows for the carefully stagged and angled overhead channels (10 overheads) 16, side channels, 7 rear channels, 5 front channels, and 3 subwoofers are in the 39 channel theater.
Looks like.... 36.6 channel theater...

I'll bring a flashlight for much better photos next time. Just a speedlight and long exposures

 

[sander99]

P.S. already using Auro3D in my home cinema 7.1.4.

Just in case you didn't think about that:
In theory you could connect the multichannel pre-amp outputs of your surround-receiver/-amp/-processor (whichever you have) to the multichannel analog inputs of the A16 and listen to Auro3D that way. I say in theory because depending on your exact setup this could be a practical or an extremely unpractical solution. For example having seperate power amps for the loudspeakers would be practical: just split the pre-amp outs of the processor to the power amps and the A16 then you can simply switch off the power amps when using the A16 and no loudspeakers([Edit: otherwise you would have to disconnect the loudspeakers when using the A16]). Another thing affecting practicality is if you can easily switch off (or switch between presets for) level, delay and room eq settings (that you would normally not want to use in combination with the A16).

 

[mrmac]

The 5 center channel [Fronts]-Atmos channels are larger than the satellites.
I didn't picture those, but they are like 2ft by 2ft per center speaker box (voicing and front-focused)
All of the speakers are projected at one Focal point in the theaters center Seat. ...Which is nice...

Brining up the rear wall are 7 channels. You can count the pictured 8 on the sides and Five, by 2 rows for the carefully stagged and angled overhead channels (10 overheads) 16, side channels, 7 rear channels, 5 front channels, and 3 subwoofers are in the 39 channel theater.
Looks like.... 36.6 channel theater...

Sorry about the photos. I didn't bring a flashlight.Just a speedlight,

Very cool!! How’s the reverb in that big auditorium? Dose it sound super big?

In regards to the 3 centre channels. It annoys the heck out of me that not more films utilize more dialog paning so that voices are coming from the character on screen and not just in the middle. The bigger the screen, the bigger this becomes apparent. Some Disney animation pan the dialog to great effect.

Is these extra center channel's utilized on some atmos mixes for home? Would it “unlock” a more dynamic dialog mix or is it the same as the 7.1 mix?

Back in the 90s 5 front channels was pioneered with the SDDS digital sound. But for atmos I’m afraid it would be like the wide channels that very rarely gets used.

 

[Andrew Seeley]

: ) the bass the good.. 7ft theater subwoofer does an incredible job over headphones.

MrMac
"Very cool!! How’s the reverb in that big auditorium? Dose it sound super big?"

It sounds exactly like the theater. James said so too, read on! I've seen films there, only now I can watch ANY movie on demand in a FOCAL-POINT in the Megaplex Theater. It's small too, so to add to the quality of the theater, the echo is "not bad." The sense of space is close to perfect in my opinion. The capture was successful [now that I've recombined mislabeled channels through the new firmware updates as of a couple of years back]
I'll get other photos with a couple of 5,000 and a 2500 "natural white" color temp lumen flashlights so that the small 75 x 75x ft space can be imagined. Ceiling is like 50 or sub 50ft high. Sweet spot is like 35ft from the screen and front sides speakers. The sense of space is pretty damn good for headphones, for sure.

Did I say that the subwoofer bass, is very-very well conveyed? This capture has a pleasing sound-footprint. Everything at the theater is calibrated by Dolby routinely, so the Frewuency response, etc is perfect.

I will collect the measured distances, all of the parameters when I go back with flashlights for better PQ photographs and a tape measure =), to the ears.
.....
Here is what James said about these center seat, focal-point Cinema captures. I did not give him all of the channels either, at the time he said this.


James:: "There is a setting on your A16 to reduce the echoey. But I've listened to all three prir that sent me and I think they should great. For me that is how a big cinema room sounds."

I agree. Now that I've come back to the prirs and recombined the 3 mislabeled channels, I think they sound just like the theater. And I'm not frustwrated with any missing channels as i had been in the past. Having a good, but incomplete capture is very dissatisfying. As in identical to the theater, only in Atmos, now mind, the focal point and speaker design makes these likely the best atmos cinema captures available, let alone available to us Too.

I'll go back with a couple of 2500 lumen flashlights next week.

I tried Sully and it's great. This small theater is more pleasing than all the larger or medium format atmos that matters I have been in. They do not even have a Sweet Seat that the speakers are all aimed to !

 

[Andrew Seeley]

I have not tried auro3d, or dts-X in the atmos theater yet.
No time after the trip down for pictures.
I'll try later today

Mrmac, the lsc and rsc are not used very often, i checked through the PA speaker selector from the remote

I will measure the Angles of the speakers, and LABEL them in photos-PICTURES, so that everyone can see exactly which channels of the 39 captures play back in 24ch, 15.1.8. And where they are located in the 75 x 75 x 42-49ft space.

Something very cool and sort of funny to me. The closed back stax sr 003 do a good job of reproducing the theater subwoofer affects. They shake your ears. So Does HD 800 or 007, like the theater experience does.

 

[dsperber]

Each theater speaker features a ribbon tweeter and two 6.5" drivers. All Focal pointed to the CENTER seat of a small [what you want] Form Factor 75 x 75 or 80ft theater.

I will get photos of the theater in the coming day. Or two.

It has been awhile since I have been there. It's the New Vinyard UT Dolby Atmos Theater, a 39 channel... cinema\theater

Every single point source (38 channels) features a ribbon tweeter and two 6.5 or 7.5" drivers. They are [have the best dispersion pattern] the best atmos speakers for the cinema footprint possible. You'll understand whenever I get around to picking up photos of the theater.

The fact that the cinema is professionally equalized and Focal-pointed at the center Seat (because it is a small-format Atmos cinema, -but with especially good speakers) sweetened the pot when I took the measurements in Febr. 2021

I'm want to be sure I'm not misinterpreting what you've said here.

Are you saying that back in Feb 2021 you somehow arranged for the 39-channel Dolby Atmos theater at the Geneva Megaplex in Vineyard UT to be available off-hours for your personal use, in order to do an in-person 15.1.8 PRIR measurement? And if so, did you have "engineering assistants" to help set up all of the projection-room driving of the theater's sound system from what I assume must have been inside the projection room and its audio equipment?

Must have been lots and lots of long cables somehow getting to the A16, and the microphones in your ears, with you sitting in that "sweet spot" of the theater... if that's what you did.

So, what did this "theater rental" project cost you? If it is the miracle sound "big theater" environment you describe I would guess other A16 users would love to chip in to create another such "destination PRIR measurement" event. Might it be possible to arrange for another such event? And if so, appropriate "engineering" support should also be arranged. (for example, I'd like to ask Lorr Kramer if he would be interested in a road trip and still available "for hire", like he used to do when AIX Studios existed?)

Similar in concept to what we did back in 2010 when Lorr arranged to have the Egyptian Theater (in Hollywood) available in the early afternoon for 4 of us early A8 users so that we could get individual in-person 7.1 PRIR captures of the sound of that theater's sound system. He had an "in" with the projectionist, and we got a tour of the projection room after everything was finished, which was a fantastic treat. As I recall I think there were maybe 48 speakers all around the sides and rear of the auditorium. Don't recall how many audio channels the theater could handle, but for sure there were no "height" speakers as this was pre-immersive.

Unfortunately the theater was essentially completely empty, except for maybe 7 of us humans who were sitting up in the balcony, awaiting our turn to sit in "1st-row center of the balcony", since the real limiting factor was cable length, power cords, etc., from the projection booth, to where we had to sit to get measured. So not only was this perhaps not the true "sweet spot" of the Egyptian's sound system, but the absence of human bodies in all the rest of the seats produced a very very hollow and echoic result... exactly as you'd imagine. Like a huge cavern, with sound bouncing around the empty auditorium where it should have been deadened and absorbed by people everywhere.

So the resulting PRIR was "big and huge", but not terribly enjoyable to use, at least for me. It really wasn't an honest capture of a "big theater" so that if you watched a movie through that PRIR you wanted to experience the sensation of actually being in a big theater. It didn't deliver that enjoyable sound experience, however accurate the PRIR capture itself might have been. What got captured was the "cavern" sound we actually heard. And I never again actually used it to listen to anything, once trying it out in my home.

I'm therefore wondering what happened during your Feb 2021 PRIR event, if there actually was such an event? And then did you also come a way with a 15.1.8 PRIR that was missing its "damping humans" to soften the sound and make it actually usable and enjoyable? I'm sure it was "accurate", but is it "truly usable and enjoyable"?

 

[Litlgi74]

Are you saying that back in Feb 2021 you somehow arranged for the 39-channel Dolby Atmos theater at the Geneva Megaplex in Vineyard UT to be available off-hours for your personal use, in order to do an in-person 15.1.8 PRIR measurement?

That's exactly what he is saying!

So the resulting PRIR was "big and huge", but not terribly enjoyable to use, at least for me. It really wasn't an honest capture of a "big theater" so that if you watched a movie through that PRIR you wanted to experience the sensation of actually being in a big theater. It didn't deliver that enjoyable sound experience, however accurate the PRIR capture itself might have been. What got captured was the "cavern" sound we actually heard. And I never again actually used it to listen to anything, once trying it out in my home.

@Andrew Seeley was gracious to let me hear his "Cinema" creation. I give him high praise for even taking on such a challenging task...

Like many who think it would be great to have a movie theater experience at home... My experience was similar to @dsperber. I won't comment on the accuracy of the sound... But what I can say is... It takes a lot for the brain to be convinced / fooled into thinking that you are in the environment of the PRIR creation... For my listening room at home... Being 8 - 10' from the screen... The PRIR illusion was far from acceptable for my senses.

 

[Andrew Seeley]

Hi dsperber. Yes

330 feet of cable were used in order to get the mics from the realiser and the Atmos Christy Amplifiers xlr analog inputs, to the sweet seat in the theater. And for the 3.5mm outs from the realiser to the xlr inputs of EACH CHANNEL of the captured, then HAND SELECTED channels in the atmos theater, (this is for the 24 channels of the 39 channels present at the theater)
I can quite safely say that The Egyptian theater captures are nothing like a treated atmos theater. ; )

I don't think the amplifiers still have analog inputs at the theater. I had asked and arranged with the head protectionist for the theater chain in oder to rendezvous and get the luxury atmos theater, through covid when viewership was at an all time low, to get this professional spec small format (-no reverb) theater.

These do not share many similarities whatsoever with the Egyptian theater prirs that were made.

Yep, about 525$ of cable and adaptors were bought, paid for. The cable was properly covered and the prir capture then implemented.

The user would need to decide whether it's enjoyable... the theater and seats at my theater are treated, it is also not a flat-floored theater as the Egyptian is, as is seen in the photos taken yesterday. The floors, and walls are also carpeted in accoustic treatment, unlike the Egyptian, which was built in the 20s or 30s and is all flat, reflective concrete construction ...

I will just say these are professional... I've been to the Egyptian on Hollywood blvd and the accoustics are truly messed up.... these are VERY Enjoyable. And are the true experience in this exact Dolby Atmos Theater. You would not be able to tell a difference at the theater or listening to the Realiser.

Yes,
I have had these captures for years. Since Feb or March, 2021

I will take professional photos and label which speakers correspond to which channels.

The prir was incomplete in 2021 because in my haste to make the captures, some of the prir captures were mislabeled and could not be used, until the composite (CX) PRIR Builder was made available by Smyth Reaearch.

I think The theater has since removed the Christie amplifiers with xlr inputs(for all 38 channels - the main subwoofer may still have an xlr feed-in Christie solution)

They sound like a very small theatre, and are therefore very enjoyable. Try to imagine if you can, how an atmos focal point would sound in an intimate theater in the sweet spot and you'd have it. In the open-air incline of the seating arrangement, that accentuates the open-air sense of space for the sound direction. Which is naturally desirable over a flat seat-concrete floor theater experience.

The floors of this theater are also capet, and the seats are cloth luxury seating. Nothing like the acoustically very unfriendly environment of the antiquated Egyptian.

The speakers are also really, really nice. The Egyptian uses old clunker speakers. No ribbon tweeter dispersion affects there.

 

[dsperber]

That's exactly what he is saying!

And were you the requisite "engineering support"?? And were there miles of wires?

 

[Litlgi74]

And were you the requisite "engineering support"?? And were there miles of wires?

Haha... I was not there, but I was called for tech support.

Miles.. of cables, no... But like he said... There was a lot!

 

[Andrew Seeley]

It's worth mentioning that Very precious few, if any Atmos theaters still use xlr input amplifiers... Even if you could find some approval, a theater chain willing to let you make a prir, all of the amplifiers run through Dolbyt' newest Digital Media Acceleration platforms. Since 2018 or 2019 or 2022, in the case of this theater chains upgrade cycle

You couldn't connect to the theater, because there's no circuitry with xlr or 3.5 or RCA input for the speaker channels.

In short,
The Christie Amplfiers were replaced nationwide.

Litligi was exceptionally helpful as time was short to make the captures and the planning had to be done
before arriving for Crunch Time.
I'd made many of my own prirs beforehand. And yes, I was very careful to work with Smyth Research and 3d Soundshop to be sure all was properly accomplished.

No atmos cinema theater speakers were blown out, or otherwise harmed throughout.

Half of the wires were the 3.5mm to rca > xlr adaptor cables to get from Realiser into Christie amp system.

If the theater will let me take a picture and the rack has not been upgraded I'll get. Photo of the rack too. My understanding was that this intimate-grade theater has already since had the equipment upgraded..

The drivers look like 5" 1/4 to 5" 3/4" per each dynamic driver. That means they're Definitely linked to the three subwoofers in the room, judging by the setup and clean sub bass and bass one can percieve, hear in the theater. Not 6" - 7.5" for each driver

Large driver attached with 8k photos courtesy of the nikon d800e
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1FXG1cTHanjX7R28PwOsaj6rW5Ixdhx4z
Center 5 channels are about 1' 2/3 ft (Vertical Y-axis) by 2'ft (Horizontal X-axis) speaker boxes, suspended and elevated High, at about 2/3-the-Screen High on rafters behind the silver screen.
Rear wall is 6 speakers (+16 sides + 12 overhead divided by 2, for each right and left sides + 5 Centers' in picture attachment Four)

Will label the picture and reuploaded for the channels, the 39 captured in a ideal 24 channel configuration prir.

A real ear was used. This is my ear, for those interested in compatibility with their own ears!

 

[dsperber]

Thanks to both @Andrew Seeley and @Litigi74 for the great backstory and additional details.

Seems like the disappearance of the XLR analog-input amplifiers makes a repeat event seem unlikely, or at least much more cumbersome and with questionable results. There are reasonably priced (around $20 each, and you'd need 12 of them) analog-to-digital converters to accept the 3.5mm output of the A16. But how the 12 optical/coax digital outputs then gets into the new sound system would be challenging.

And then there's a question about performance and timing as registered through sound heard back at the calibration microphones, as impacted by this intermediate conversion of what's supposed to be "instantaneous analog electrical". Too bad we don't have an HDMI-ouput feed for the sweep signals and appropriate PRIR measurement software based on using already-digital source signals.

Oh well.

More memories from the glory days... when there was a real after-market audio business for cars, and we had to give 3rd-party retailers money to get a great sounding sound system in your car (instead of that crappy Becker FM radio in a Mercedes!)...

Here in LA back in the 70's and 80's there was a fabulous high-end "audio installer to the stars" in Beverly Hills named Howard Becker. I forget the exact name of his store back then but it was on La Cienega Blvd. In 1996 he gave up the audio-only business and moved up to Oxnard CA where he started Becker Automotive Design. They do custom vehicle conversions for worldwide elite. Well I'm not a star but back in the 80's I wanted a really great sound system for my new Mercedes and back then that's what Howard Becker's business was. I went there and explained to him what I wanted.

Howard convinced me to install a very custom 16-speaker sound system in my Mercedes, based around a Nakamichi TD1200 tape/radio head unit. It was to be triamplified with custom crossovers, and custom-tuned (to my tastes) parametric equalizer. And, he assured me, it will have Foster ribbon tweeters installed up-firing (with sound reflecting off of the windshield) on the left and right sides of the dashboard.

I was sold. I gave him my car that day. A month later, after many "where is it?" phone calls and $10,000 poorer, I finally got my car back. AND IT SOUNDED FANTASTIC!

Yes, I had lost some of my car's trunk space for the electronic equipment which was beautifully mounted vertically on the back wall of the trunk. But it was also protected by a gorgeous see-through plexiglass panel which largely served to show off all the glowing lights to all that I showed it to (and there were many that I showed it to!)

Most importantly, inside the passenger cabin it really sounded fantastic, mostly in the front seats but also in the rear. As I've described in the past, back then I was making cassette tapes on my Nakamichi CR-7A and running it through Carver Sonic Hologram processor which was thus on the recordings. Playing these "hologrammed tapes" back through the TD1200 in the confines of the car's cabin and with all the speakers in front/rear/side/floor panels and four woofers on the rear deckon the rear deck, well it really gave me happiness. 3D-like sound... pre Smyth.

What I could not have imagined until I heard them, was the contribution from the beautiful sounding up-firing Foster ribbon tweeters he convinced me to install. He was right. They really made high frequency sound beautiful and clean and vibrant, and produced an overall sound stage ON THE DASHBOARD, in front of me. Probably helped by the effect of the Carver Sonic Hologram.

Whatever it was, those were the days. I kept that car for 28 years (from 1983 until 2010) very much because of how my tapes sounded in it. Hated to part with it.

Ahh... ribbon tweeters.

 

[Litlgi74]

@Andrew Seeley has agreed to let me make some binaural recordings (Demos) of his "Cinema" PRIR in action...

This will give all who are interested a real sense of how a movie theater PRIR sounds.

 

[Litlgi74]

Ahh... ribbon tweeters.

Yep... They are awesome... They are why I think that Raal headphones are arguably the best I've heard.

I've been working on something for a while now to get the most out of my ribbon headphones, (SR1a and CA-1a) and the A16. Because of the high bass energy, especially the LFE in films... it's challenging to keep the ribbon drivers from being over loaded causing massive distortion... But with the help of a tactile transducer/Subwoofer, DSP, as well as the internal bass management of the A16... I'm almost there!

And while I still think the HD800S is the best all around headphone solution for the Realiser A16... For those (not everyone) who are willing to tinker... The Sennheiser HD800s "may" soon be dethroned by a Raal headphone.

 

[Andrew Seeley]

I found a video of the theater recorded from the sweet spot, so everyone can find a good sense of scale of the filled room.. each and every channel seen from the sweet seat. This was take on an s20+ so the video is slightly zoomed, but the 1080p vid still gives you the best way to get a good sense of scale of the theater from the the focal point, Listening Position, Since it is a 360degree round the world video

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1GdIanbisjZOZifIP1CmNN2hVVNfslDCZ

These photos and Video ! were taken November 2020, months before the final Show day, when the Prirs were made. @ prep took some time!

Theater Picture 1 and number 4
Thos photo captures the geometry of the theater and helps each person see the theater' sense of Scale, as Listed. For the ear's (ears') listening enjoyment.

@mrmac it sounds like the right size for the space. See the video in the Link and you'd have the idea.

Theater Picture 2;
Note the OH rears and fronts, (properly labled the orange 15.1.8 channel layouts, Prirs) have custom tailored-by-Dolby dispersion profiles for a theater of this class. The speaker is different and that too is reflected in the prir capture of each of these particular four channels!

These Orange channels are my favorite channels, outside of the 7 Center Fronts!

We aim to please!

.... and circling back, for extra-an even better spatial sense.
Theater Picture 5 and 6;
There might be are two rows of 6 overheads, Right and Left of the Focal Point, Listening Position. Instead of 5. I remember which channels I selected for OH and FOH and ROH channels when seeing it in photo, and I will label these and new, better photos when I get the chance.