[esimms86]

I'd love to get into that room!

I agree that it would be a good cool one time experience. I also have to admit that, though my preferred listening modality these days is Auromatic upmixing, there are lots of times that I opt for “simple” 4.0 or 5.1 music listening. There’s something very delightful about having a setup where I can localize sound to individual speakers while also enjoying surround immersion. With 13.1 or 12.1.10 listening, it’s more about the totality of the immersion experience.

 

[Brownsfan]

I agree that it would be a good cool one time experience. I also have to admit that, though my preferred listening modality these days is Auromatic upmixing, there are lots of times that I opt for “simple” 4.0 or 5.1 music listening. There’s something very delightful about having a setup where I can localize sound to individual speakers while also enjoying surround immersion. With 13.1 or 12.1.10 listening, it’s more about the totality of the immersion experience.

Hi Esimms. I hope you don't mind a PM question. It sounds like you are a music listener and a movie watcher second with the a16. I am the same, but I am trying to decide between buying a used version of the 16 that was an original pre-order for about 2.5k and a new version with the added dtx/ auro software. Do you have an opinion whether the newer version and new software is worth the extra expense for use by an audiophile music listener? Thanks for any insight you can provide.

 

[esimms86]

Hi Esimms. I hope you don't mind a PM question. It sounds like you are a music listener and a movie watcher second with the a16. I am the same, but I am trying to decide between buying a used version of the 16 that was an original pre-order for about 2.5k and a new version with the added dtx/ auro software. Do you have an opinion whether the newer version and new software is worth the extra expense for use by an audiophile music listener? Thanks for any insight you can provide.

I’m not sure what you mean by “an original pre-order” since no pre-orders have shipped yet AFAIK. I do know that some people with pre-orders have paid additional money to the Smyths to become buyers at full price.

Now, I don’t know what the price difference is for you between the two options, and that’s a key question. Also, I don’t know that Smyth or any dealer currently have new A16 units for sale.

A newer A16 would have the hardware upgrades which functionally would not have any significant effect on your preferred usage of the A16. It could, however, become a factor when it comes to resale value. Further, I don’t believe that Smyths are offering the the hardware upgrades at this time OR if they will ever be offering them again. So if you have FOMO…

Lastly, you have to calculate into the equation something like 700 dollars for the upgrade to Atmos, DTS:X and Auro 3D. I know that you don’t specifically mention Dolby Atmos but I would consider it essential given the significant number of Atmos music mixes increasingly becoming available for streaming. I own maybe a dozen Atmos music releases on blu ray, however, the vast majority of Atmos music can be found on places like Apple Music. (Also, consider that a good amount of Atmos music on blu ray may not meet your personal musical taste.)

At the end of the day, the minimum that I would go with if I were you would be the “base” (gently?) used unit for 2.5k + 700 in software upgrades purchased directly from Smyth, for a total of 3.2k. That would also be the sweet spot for value for someone with your use preferences.

 

[Brownsfan]

Thanks Esimms. That is helpful. It must be a Kickstarter unit and not a pre-order. Sorry for the confusion. Your point about FOMO is a good one of course. Do you know, or does anyone else know if the atmos software upgrade can be used with the hardware chip of the Kickstarter units? I thought the newest hardware version was required for the latest software upgrades.

Thanks for your fast response.

 

[dsperber]

I mention that the original A16 hardware does not have the HDMI board that supports 24 channels. Only 16 channels. So that's one more upgrade which can be done by Smyth for a price but it needs to be sent to them so that they can perform the hardware surgery. I believe this was $500 as I recall (I had it done to my own "original" A16). And don't forget there's a shipping charge, customs paperwork, etc..

While it's in their hands is the right time to also have them apply all firmware upgrades and the DTS:X and Auro-3D licensing upgrades, each of which was its own $199 additional cost. But the licensing upgrades is software-only process, avoiding any need to send the unit to Smyth.

So all of this (which is incremental costs) can be avoided if you just pay the "new unit" price to begin with (assuming it truly is available for purchase), with all the hardware/firmware upgrades pre-applied and installed and you just get what you want to end up with right out-of-the-box.

(I can't remember now if the 24-channel HDMI upgrade was a prerequisite to the DTS:X upgrade and Auro upgrades, or could DTS:X be implemented on an original 16-channel HDMI board, and therefore subject to 16-channel immersive format limitations??)

 

[esimms86]

I mention that the original A16 hardware does not have the HDMI board that supports 24 channels. Only 16 channels. So that's one more upgrade which can be done by Smyth for a price but it needs to be sent to them so that they can perform the hardware surgery. I believe this was $500 as I recall (I had it done to my own "original" A16). And don't forget there's a shipping charge, customs paperwork, etc..

While it's in their hands is the right time to also have them apply all firmware upgrades and the DTS:X and Auro-3D licensing upgrades.

So all of this (which is incremental costs) can be avoided if you just pay the "new unit" price to begin with (assuming it truly is available for purchase), with all the hardware/firmware upgrades pre-applied and installed and you just get what you want to end up with right out-of-the-box.

All good points Darryl. 16 channel vs 24 channel may or may not matter in practice to @Brownsfan but FOMO is real LOL. I obviously can't unhear my personal 23 channel 3D Soundshop in studio PRIR.

I have not heard or read anything from Smyth Research verifying that a hardware upgrade for existing units is still an option, so that's an open question AFAIK. Navigating UK Customs, however, is a PITA, and it's also no fun to send your A16 overseas and then ever so patiently wait for it to return home to you.

Upgrading firmware to include Dolby Atmos/DTS:X/Auro 3D is not greatly challenging to do on your own.

 

[Litlgi74]

I thought the newest hardware version was required for the latest software upgrade

It is not. Atmos, DTS:X and Auro-3D work perfectly with the 16 channel versions.

Also, there is no additional cost for the Atmos decoder. It is included... you would just need to purchase the DTS:X and Auro-3D permissions.

I don't like spending other people's money... But... As far as FOMO is concerned... I think you can put that behind you. IMO, the best decoder is Auro-3D... And it functions natively in both 16 and 24 channel mode.

 

[esimms86]

Thanks Esimms. That is helpful. It must be a Kickstarter unit and not a pre-order. Sorry for the confusion. Your point about FOMO is a good one of course. Do you know, or does anyone else know if the atmos software upgrade can be used with the hardware chip of the Kickstarter units? I thought the newest hardware version was required for the latest software upgrades.

Thanks for your fast response.

My understanding is that the original Kickstarter units can play 16 channel Dolby Atmos but not 24 channel. Auro 3D is limited to 16 channel regardless of whether you have the APM 110 hardware or not.

 

[Litlgi74]

Like @esimms86 said

There’s something very delightful about having a setup where I can localize sound to individual speakers while also enjoying surround immersion.

There is an argument that 16 channel (or less) Atmos "may" have more of a wow (looking for sound) factor than 24 channel Atmos in the same size room.

PS... I may have some old 16 vs 24 channel demos you can compare. I'm looking now.

 

[Sanctuary]

Like @esimms86 said

There is an argument that 16 channel (or less) Atmos "may" have more of a wow (looking for sound) factor than 24 channel Atmos in the same size room.

Similarly, turning up specific channels also can have a dramatic effect as far as being able to hear distinct positions within the sound field.

Initially when I got my A16, I kept having an issue where I was questioning whether or not what I was hearing was coming from the top speakers, or the sides, or even the fronts because I'd often get what just sounded like a non-localized wall of sound. This also made the whole thing sound a lot more cramped than it should have been compared to listening to those same channels at the same distances with actual speakers. It's probably just a limitation of what the A16 can actually do, plus the fact that you're wearing headphones and just can't avoid it.

I decided to turn all my tops up by around 3, and I also turned the rears up by 4, because I was barely ever hearing the rears when I should be due to all the other speakers drowning them out. Over time, resetting rooms and trying out various PRIRs I kind of just forgot about turning the tops up, so they ended up being left at their defaults for quite a while, but I still kept the rears at 4.

On Saturday, I ended up watching Elysium again for the first time with the A16, and there's a pretty crazy overhead section near the beginning of the film. The main character enters his work, and a weapon check announcement happens directly over head. This was the first time I've had the tops sound that pronounced and speaker-like. After that, the character enters a factory area that has a lot of ambient noise, plus more announcements happening.

Thing is, until I actually soloed the tops, I had no idea that the second announcement (after the weapon check) was supposed to be coming from directly overhead. It just sounded like it was something happening in a wide, echoey room with no sense of direction. Because the tops were being kind of drowned out again. I then turned them up to 3 and suddenly there was a night and day difference.

Even if in theory turning up the volume of the top speakers might make them seem closer, in practice it does the opposite, especially while the other speakers are active.

Also, everyone needs to watch Ambulance too, if only just for the sound.

 

[CaptainFunk]

Initially when I got my A16, I kept having an issue where I was questioning whether or not what I was hearing was coming from the top speakers, or the sides, or even the fronts because I'd often get what just sounded like a non-localized wall of sound. This also made the whole thing sound a lot more cramped than it should have been compared to listening to those same channels at the same distances with actual speakers. It's probably just a limitation of what the A16 can actually do, plus the fact that you're wearing headphones and just can't avoid it.

I have actually observed similar things. The more speakers the more mushy and unprecise the sound field seems to become, at least for me. I wonder if this is the result of phase cancellation or something like that, or maybe this is really an issue of mixing all those channels into one stereo signal. I do have the 24 channel version but I stick with 9.1.6 at the moment because I don't think 15.1.8 (or 12.1.10 even) sounds better in my case.

 

[Litlgi74]

or 12.1.10 even

Hey, Hey! easy there...

Though I'm not on board yet... Less channels may be indeed the reason why so many of us are enjoying Auro-3D and the Auromatic up mixer... And the reason why @Sanctuary needs to upgrade.

But a counter argument can be made with the film Top Gun Maverick.. I found the film's audio to be well balanced... But mostly drab... As most of it is in 9.1.2 with very few object-based scenes. But there is one scene (where Maverick proves the mission can be done) that stands out for me... Mainly because it is object-based and all the channels of my 12.1.10 listening room light up.

Ambulance is an Atmos object-based film... All speakers are active in the film from start to finish... My wife and I thoroughly enjoyed it in 12.1.10.

More testing to be done.

 

[CaptainFunk]

Hey, Hey! easy there...

Though I'm not on board yet... Less channels may be indeed the reason why so many of us are enjoying Auro-3D and the Auromatic up mixer... And the reason why @Sanctuary needs to upgrade.

But a counter argument can be made with the film Top Gun Maverick.. I found the film's audio to be well balanced... But mostly drab... As most of it is in 9.1.2 with very few object-based scenes. But there is one scene (where Maverick proves the mission can be done) that stands out for me... Mainly because it is object-based and all the channels of my 12.1.10 listening room light up.

Ambulance is an Atmos object-based film... All speakers are active in the film from start to finish... My wife and I thoroughly enjoyed it in 12.1.10.

More testing to be done.

Apologies John, I wasn't trying to make a general statement, it is just a personal observation which depends on many other factors (headphones, hearing, etc.) which might be totally different for other people. Also, I should've added a disclaimer that I have never listened to a (good!) Dolby Atmos system in RL, so I have no idea how all of this should actually sound like. I am really just going off by my own personal taste here and that is "less is more". Maybe depending on some movies going higher than 9.1.6 actually has it's benefits, as you are suggesting, but it didn't make a difference for me. I am perfectly happy with 9.1.6

 

[Litlgi74]

Apologies John, I wasn't trying to make a general statement, it is just a personal observation which depends on many other factors (headphones, hearing, etc.) which might be totally different for other people. Also, I should've added a disclaimer that I have never listened to a (good!) Dolby Atmos system in RL, so I have no idea how all of this should actually sound like. I am really just going off by my own personal taste here and that is "less is more". Maybe depending on some movies going higher than 9.1.6 actually has it's benefits, as you are suggesting, but it didn't make a difference for me. I am perfectly happy with 9.1.6

No apologies needed... Just having a little fun.

Audio is definitely not one size fits all... I'm so glad this machine gives us tools to tinker with to make the sound our own.

@Sanctuary is right... Ambulance Is the must listen to film of 2022. If you haven't seen it... Put it on your to-do list.

 

[VandyMan]

Ambulance is an Atmos object-based film... All speakers are active in the film from start to finish... My wife and I thoroughly enjoyed it in 12.1.10.

I watched the UHD version on Prime last night and it did not play as Atmos. I was wondering why you found the soundtrack so impressive (As 8-channel PCM, I thought it was pretty good, but not exceptional).