[Richter Di]

Hi, did my PRIR measurement today at the Munich, Germany msm studios.
I will write a bit more about my experiences when I am back home and will have had the chance to listen to the PRIR taken there.

In the meantime I have a short question. Is it true that the internal Audio Test Loop will only use the factory installed PRIR created with a dummy head?
At least that is what the user manual suggests. Any idea if this is true?

No, I am pretty sure that is not true. Or I must always have been massively fooled by psychoacoustics as I always experienced it as simply the currently active virtual speakers (as determined by the current preset, current listening room, etc.) playing.
I have looked at the older and the newer version of the manual. In the older version this same explanation is done with a reference to a picture of the A16 screen, I think they just meant to explain what the speakers from the BBC room that is shown in that screenshot are. And probably due to some mistake while editing/changing the manual the proper context for that piece of text is now missing in the newer version of the manual.

Definitely not true.. I use the test button often to test the accuracy and placement of my channel remaps...

Oh oh. That’s not good. When I tried with the test music the different locations all speakers where quite clearly positioned but not the left and right speaker. It sounded much more like an array.
Just returned from Munich tonight. Will check once more tomorrow with my own Smyth Realiser.
Will also call James to ensure if the test is using BBC or the selected PRIR.
In addition we did the HPEQ measurement for eg the HD 800. But at home I use the manloud versions. So maybe this is another angle.

 

[sander99]

It sounded much more like an array.

Just to be sure: you know that when you activate the test function then initially all channels are playing simultaniously (the same sound)? (I don't know what kind of array you are thinking of, but all virtual speakers playing the same sound at once could be considered as some sort of array.) Only after you select one specific speaker you will hear that specific speaker solo. I think there also is a way to select a few speakers to play simultaniously, I don't remember exactly how but if you accidentally did this instead of just selecting L or R alone then the result could again be considered as some sort of array.

You can also select individual speakers when just listening to a normal source, for example just stereo music (in that case of course you will only hear sound if you select L or R). What happens if you do that, does the sound come from the proper location then?

But at home I use the manloud versions.

I want to remind you that a manloud is created with and for use with one specific PRIR, so ideally you should make a new manloud (for every headphone) for this new PRIR.

I hope (and would expect) that at MSM they solo'd the virtual speakers for you and they sounded alright then and there? And they used their A16, not yours?

 

[Litlgi74]

Just to be sure: you know that when you activate the test function then initially all channels are playing simultaniously (the same sound)? (I don't know what kind of array you are thinking of, but all virtual speakers playing the same sound at once could be considered as some sort of array.) Only after you select one specific speaker you will hear that specific speaker solo. I think there also is a way to select a few speakers to play simultaniously, I don't remember exactly how but if you accidentally did this instead of just selecting L or R alone then the result could again be considered as some sort of array.

You can also select individual speakers when just listening to a normal source, for example just stereo music (in that case of course you will only hear sound if you select L or R). What happens if you do that, does the sound come from the proper location then?

I want to remind you that a manloud is created with and for use with one specific PRIR, so ideally you should make a new manloud (for every headphone) for this new PRIR.

I hope (and would expect) that at MSM they solo'd the virtual speakers for you and they sounded alright then and there? And they used their A16, not yours?

It's also possible that he may have soloed the left and right together at the same time... But you would normally see the red highlight around each speaker when this option is activated.

If I remember correctly.. in addition to soloing each channel... double pressing a channel on the remote will allow other channels to be added to the test. But you need to press the "all" button to deactivate the feature.. otherwise, when exiting the test, actual audio will only play through the channels that are still highlighted (red stroke around the speaker.) I normally do this with the cento control app for the iPad.

I'm sure everything is fine.. probably just one of those Smyth anomalies/quirks that can't be explained.

 

[GeorgeA]

While I am enjoying Auro 3D and Auromatic upmixing on my A16, I have found that I have, since installing the upgrade, been experiencing a consistent glitch in the firmware. I seem to recall that a similar glitch may have also occurred for some A16 users after installing DTS:X. I'm not 100% certain, but I seem to recall @Got the Shakes posting about this glitch in previous posts.

What I am referring to is the experience of the A16 being rendered silent unless/until I select a stock BBC preset. I then follow up by selecting my chosen nonstock preset, resulting in the restoration of sound. As I recall, the A16 needs to be returned fully to stock presets in order to rectify this. Once rectified, other presets can repopulate the stock ones, with no further recurrence of this silence glitch.

I do appreciate the fact that this has, thankfully, not been universally experienced by other A16 users who have done the Auro 3D upgrade.

My question is this: would doing a full factory restore leave the A16 in fully functional DTS:X and Auro 3D upgraded status, or is there another non-destructive, preferred method to meet the same goal? I thank you in advance and look forward to reading your recommendation in answer to this post.

I dare to wish you and hope you won’t be upset, welcome to the club of those with the no-sound issue or no audio problem. As @Got the Shakes wrote, also in my case it’s an older issue, if I’m not mistaken, I noticed it after installing DTS decoding PRIRs composites.

I can’t provide evidence, but I think that in your case as well, not installing the update to Auro-3D is the cause of the problem, but rather something related to the way custom PRIRs are processed by Realiser A16.

I also wrote to James Smyth and did the tests he suggested. His response was that they couldn’t reproduce the problem, most likely with their Realiser A16 units.

Not so long ago, @Litlgi74 wrote in his Post #13,355 that Smyths were aware of it and they were working on it. When Smyth Research will come up with a solution to this problem is hard to anticipate.

 

[Richter Di]

Just to be sure: you know that when you activate the test function then initially all channels are playing simultaniously (the same sound)? (I don't know what kind of array you are thinking of, but all virtual speakers playing the same sound at once could be considered as some sort of array.) Only after you select one specific speaker you will hear that specific speaker solo. I think there also is a way to select a few speakers to play simultaniously, I don't remember exactly how but if you accidentally did this instead of just selecting L or R alone then the result could again be considered as some sort of array.

You can also select individual speakers when just listening to a normal source, for example just stereo music (in that case of course you will only hear sound if you select L or R). What happens if you do that, does the sound come from the proper location then?

I want to remind you that a manloud is created with and for use with one specific PRIR, so ideally you should make a new manloud (for every headphone) for this new PRIR.

I hope (and would expect) that at MSM they solo'd the virtual speakers for you and they sounded alright then and there? And they used their A16, not yours?

Hi @sander99, fully aware that first all speakers play and then I have to select each loudspeaker.

It's also possible that he may have soloed the left and right together at the same time... But you would normally see the red highlight around each speaker when this option is activated.

If I remember correctly.. in addition to soloing each channel... double pressing a channel on the remote will allow other channels to be added to the test. But you need to press the "all" button to deactivate the feature.. otherwise, when exiting the test, actual audio will only play through the channels that are still highlighted (red stroke around the speaker.) I normally do this with the cento control app for the iPad.

I'm sure everything is fine.. probably just one of those Smyth anomalies/quirks that can't be explained.

I did solo only one speaker at a time.
I will test more in the next hours - I am at home now - an report back.

 

[Litlgi74]

I am at home now - an report back.

Looking forward to your feedback... And hearing about the experience.

 

[esimms86]

I dare to wish you and hope you won’t be upset, welcome to the club of those with the no-sound issue or no audio problem. As @Got the Shakes wrote, also in my case it’s an older issue, if I’m not mistaken, I noticed it after installing DTS decoding PRIRs composites.

I can’t provide evidence, but I think that in your case as well, not installing the update to Auro-3D is the cause of the problem, but rather something related to the way custom PRIRs are processed by Realiser A16.

I also wrote to James Smyth and did the tests he suggested. His response was that they couldn’t reproduce the problem, most likely with their Realiser A16 units.

Not so long ago, @Litlgi74 wrote in his Post #13,355 that Smyths were aware of it and they were working on it. When Smyth Research will come up with a solution to this problem is hard to anticipate.

Thanks, and no offense taken. There are many clubs in which nobody wants to be a member. Anyway, I have an A16 and I can get sound so there’s no reason for me to shed any tears.

 

[Sanctuary]

@Got the Shakes, thanks for your reply. Oh well, first world problems. Or to quote Boris Johnson, “them’s the breaks.”

Until your previous post, I did not know that it might be a specific issue with the DTS upgrade (I suppose it's not), and then a light bulb went off in my head with the idea that maybe that's why I have had the same problem with my A16 since day one. Mine came with the DTS updrade. But then @Got the Shakes mentioned having it he thought maybe prior to the DTS upgrade, so that might not be the cause.

I actually just recently emailed James about this specific issue, as well as my USB to PC issue just to throw another log onto the fire so that they can't keep hiding behind "Well we haven't been able to reproduce it" as though that means it isn't an issue. I don't doubt that there are more users out there besides the few here that have posted and emailed about it that has the problem as well.

But I'm sorry to hear that you now are having the same issue. This does at least make it seem like it is a firmware problem, and not necessarily faulty hardware at least though. Did you already have the DTS upgrade for a while, or did you recently get it specifically so that you could have Auro 3D?

As far as your question about potentially losing the upgrades after doing a full factory restore: you shouldn't. Or at least from my own experience, I do not with the DTS upgrade, but I did not manually do the upgrade in my home. My unit already had it updated when it arrived, but I am assuming the process was the same when they did it.

 

[esimms86]

Until your previous post, I did not know that it might be a specific issue with the DTS upgrade (I suppose it's not), and then a light bulb went off in my head with the idea that maybe that's why I have had the same problem with my A16 since day one. Mine came with the DTS updrade. But then @Got the Shakes mentioned having it he thought maybe prior to the DTS upgrade, so that might not be the cause.

I actually just recently emailed James about this specific issue, as well as my USB to PC issue just to throw another log onto the fire so that they can't keep hiding behind "Well we haven't been able to reproduce it" as though that means it isn't an issue. I don't doubt that there are more users out there besides the few here that have posted and emailed about it that has the problem as well.

But I'm sorry to hear that you now are having the same issue. This does at least make it seem like it is a firmware problem, and not necessarily faulty hardware at least though. Did you already have the DTS upgrade for a while, or did you recently get it specifically so that you could have Auro 3D?

As far as your question about potentially losing the upgrades after doing a full factory restore: you shouldn't. Or at least from my own experience, I do not with the DTS upgrade, but I did not manually do the upgrade in my home. My unit already had it updated when it arrived, but I am assuming the process was the same when they did it.

I did not have the problem with the DTS:X upgrade; it only occurred after upgrading to Auro 3D. I have also found that, with the A16 set to Auro 3D and also to a preset containing an Auro 3D BBC room but with other custom PRIR rooms for Atmos, PCM and DTS:X, the no sound issue does not occur. In actual practice, that doesn’t change things a whole lot but it does say that not all listening rooms in the selected preset have to be stock BBC listening rooms in order to insure that you get sound.

 

[Got the Shakes]

Until your previous post, I did not know that it might be a specific issue with the DTS upgrade (I suppose it's not), and then a light bulb went off in my head with the idea that maybe that's why I have had the same problem with my A16 since day one. Mine came with the DTS updrade. But then @Got the Shakes mentioned having it he thought maybe prior to the DTS upgrade, so that might not be the cause.

I actually just recently emailed James about this specific issue, as well as my USB to PC issue just to throw another log onto the fire so that they can't keep hiding behind "Well we haven't been able to reproduce it" as though that means it isn't an issue. I don't doubt that there are more users out there besides the few here that have posted and emailed about it that has the problem as well.

But I'm sorry to hear that you now are having the same issue. This does at least make it seem like it is a firmware problem, and not necessarily faulty hardware at least though. Did you already have the DTS upgrade for a while, or did you recently get it specifically so that you could have Auro 3D?

As far as your question about potentially losing the upgrades after doing a full factory restore: you shouldn't. Or at least from my own experience, I do not with the DTS upgrade, but I did not manually do the upgrade in my home. My unit already had it updated when it arrived, but I am assuming the process was the same when they did it.

I would probably need to dig up my original post here about my no sound issue to confirm if I’m right about the timing. I want to say that it may have been after installing the 2.00 firmware, but before doing the DTS upgrade.

 

[Richter Di]

My experiences doing a Dolby Atmos PRIR measurement at msm studios in Munich, 11.7.2022

I arrived a day early in Munich, as it is 7 hour drive for me to get their and took a hotel close to the msm studio.
My appointment was Monday at 2 pm and I was met in the front, having a small smoke break, by Stefan Mayer, the owner of For-Tune, the German distributor of Smyth Research. He guided me downstairs,where Stefan Bock, Director | Engineer & Producer at msm-studios was already preparing the Realiser and the asynchronous files for the measurement.



You can find a more detailed description of the msm Atmos room here: https://www.msm-studios.com/studio-f

The Dolby Atmos Home certified Immersive Suite with a 9.1.4 playback system and full HD projection facilitates mixing and mastering of music productions in all popular immersive formats such as Dolby Atmos Home, Sony 360, Auro 3D, DTS:X, MPEG-H and Fraunhofer SpatialSound Wave.

The studio, which is extremely precisely measured by the internationally renowned acoustician Jochen Veith, ensures transparent and homogeneous sound quality for all musical challenges. The 9.1.4 speaker setup consists of PMC IB2S (Left, Center, Right) and DB1S (Surround and Height) speakers as well as three PMC SB100 subwoofers.

Here are two more pictures I took.





Start of the measurements

After the preparation was done I sat down in the mastering chair and Stefan Mayer and I discussed which foamies for holding the inear microphones to use.



They had three bags with different sizes with the yellow foamies provided by Smyth. As suggested by @esimms86 and @Litlgi74 we used the Dekoni Gemini Bulletz 3 mm, sample pack. Pulling the Dekoni over the inear microphone end is a bit cumbersome but it worked after a while. Stefan Mayer was extremly carefull that the distance of insertion for both microphones in the Dekonis was exactly the same. I tried the medium size of the Dekoni and it felt safe and Stefan Mayer was almost happy with the fit. He only did very tiny adjustments comparing both ears. I can confirm that the Dekonis are the way to go since the stayed completely secure in my ears throughout the whole PRIR and HPEQ measurement of three headphones. Way easier than the yellow Smyth foamies and highly recommended.

I discussed with Stefan Mayer the need for the blue grounding wrist strap (for earthing body during PRIR measurements), and both Stefan Mayer and Stefan Bock were of the opinion it is not necessary. Let me just say that later on for the second measurement I insisted on using it.
Also we discussed again - since we had spoken about it on the telephone - the pro and cons of using the head tracker during the measurement. At this time both Stefans were of the opinion that while using the asynchronous method the use of the headtracker was not possible

This is what I found after the measurement in the evening in the manual.

14.3.1 Improving Async look angles using the Head Tracker

Using the head tracker in conjunction with wearing the SVS microphones requires the use of the supplied head band. Attach the head tracker to the head band, fit the head band to the subject’s head, running both the HT cable and the SVS microphones back to the A16.

With Look angles set to Fixed the look angles inserted into the PRIR file are simply a copy of those signalled on the preamble track. As a result, it is necessary for the subject to align their head with these look angles prior to each look measurement. Unless the look angles are very simple, having the subject move their head unaided can lead to significant degradation in the accuracy of the look angles and the SVS head tracking experience in general. In Async method a head tracking assist (HT assist) is always available and is output on User A headphone output. To use the assist, it is necessary to connect a small speaker to the headphone jack, or to an amplifier/loudspeaker. HT assist simply outputs a vertical and a horizontal pilot tone that guides the subject to orientate their head to achieve alignment with the look angle received from the preamble track. The operation of the HT assist is basically the same as that described in the ALL method except that it is for guidance only – it does not stop or start the look track playback. To give the subject sufficient time to align themselves, each look track must be paused following the double 2.2kHz burst (Pause) but before the DTMF deconvolution trigger (Start). Once head alignment has been achieved, the look track is set back in motion. In this way, the subject has the opportunity to reduce the look angle error before the deconvolution processing begins.

I shortly asked for the length of the sweeps and I was told and also saw that they were 4 seconds. I was informed that since they were using pre-produced asynchronous files they could not change the length. I have to admit that I do not know if there are 12 seconds asynchronous files available. But I know that I would have preferred the longer sine sweep. The manual says:

In studio conditions the 12-second sweep measurements can attain signal-to-noise ratios of around 112dB (a 4-second sweep will on average be 5dB lower at 107dB).

Then the first measurement started.

I was rather surprised that while doing the sine sweeps I clearly heard some small vibrations and rattling. I clearly remembered that when @sander99 and I did our measurements in my Pilates studio (different room than on the photos below back then and much less optimal) there also was some rattling in one loudspeaker and Sander and I were very concerned about this.
Stefan Bock assured me that he was also puzzled back then when doing their own PRIR and he even tried to reduce these resonance rattlings but was not able to do so. In his opinion the sine sweep in this loudness will always create such phenomenons. Interestingly I can not remember I heard such things in the little hotel room the Smyths had at their audio show in Paris.

Back to msm. Stefan Bock assisted Stefan Mayer in handing me my three headphones: Sennheiser HD 800, Hifiman Ananda, beyerdynamic DT 1770.
After the measurements were done I tested with my trusted HD 800. I was shocked in a negative way. After playing the same Dolby Atmos Jazz track, mixed at msm studios, I had heard via the A16 virtualization something which sounded more like an ordinary headphone mix down. Everything in my head.

Both Stefans looked a bit puzzled. I suggested we used the internal test tone to to see speaker by speaker how it sounded.
Using the function of the test loop almost all speakers sounded well positioned but the left and right speaker sounded each like a loudspeaker array of several loudspeakers on the side of the room, reaching from the front to the side on ear level, all while only selecting eg the left front speaker or the front right speaker.

At this time Stefan Mayer said that in his opinion the test loop was not using the PRIR and the HPEQ.
Today I spoke to Mike Smyth about this topic and he confirmed - what some of you already suggested - that the test loop will use the last selected PRIR, HPEQ and the last used listening room e.g. Dolby Atmos or DTS or PCM.

I also asked Stefan Mayer if he had used the tool of the A16 for assessing the quality of the measurement. He told me he was not aware that this was possible.
Again I needed to check after the measurement was done - no internet in the cellar and also no printout of the manual - and sorry to say, at least the manual begs to differ:




Stefan Bock went through the room settings and found a mistake in the Azi of two speakers. I made a photo of the correct settings just in case there would be a problem later.



And yes there was a problem when I returned today and tried to creat my 9.1.4 room. Since now when I create my own 9.1.4 room the last two speakers 15 and 16, Ltr and Rtr have no Azi and no elevation.



Stefan Mayer from for—tune has been informed today and I have sent him a video with all the steps I have taken. He promised me to contact Smyth to see where the problem stems from.




Second measurement

Going back to Monday at msm studios, it was already 3 pm and I was informed that at 4 pm there would be another PRIR measurement. With only one hour left time became a scarce resource.

So after Stefan Bock had corrected the values inside the A16 for the room and Stefan Mayer had checked the position of the inears, again the Dekoni make this much easier and again he had not much to correct, we did the next measurement. Right at the start an error message occurred and Stefan Mayer diagnosed quickly that one of the inear microphones had give up. Lucky us I had my on pair of inear microphones with me, since otherwise the whole measurement process would have ended, for which I had taken a vacation booked two nights in a Munich hotel and driven 7 hours would have ended there and then. Fun fact, when I told my family the story, they said “Paris 2.0”. As some of you might remember, I dragged my family after backing the A16 on Kickstarter, to Paris at 8.10.2016, and never received my measurements.

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/smyth-research-realiser-a16.807459/post-12920497

When my family found out some weeks ago, questioning me rightfully why I had to do again such an measurement for the A16, they became really mad at me and Smyth. Hence “Paris 2.0”.

So installing the Dekoni on my own inear microphone, me insisting on the blue grounding belt, and after the necessary ear check, Stefan Bock gave me the tip when looking in the 30 degree angles not to look a the loudspeakers but a little bit more to the side in the corner. With no headtracker available I did as I was told.

Speaker PRIR measurements and HPEQ with all three headphones were done and again I tried the test loops. And again to my total frustration I heard instead of a left and right speaker a wall array of loudspeakers. Stefan Bock suggested we tried some music, which sounded much more convincing this time. We changed to a classical piece with four instruments. I clearly heard the piano totally on my right side (not front right) and I was very fearful that this might be again this array mistake, but luckily Stefan Bock, who had done this Dolby Atmos recording could confirm that the piano was placed correctly and as the rest of the musicians started to play it became clear that this measurement was a success.

Regarding the problem with the test loop and hearing not a defined left and right speaker I talked today with Mike Smyth and he asked me to send him my PRIR. We will see what will happen.

Stefan Mayer copied the PRIR file and the HPEQ files to my SD card (and also send them to me via email). So lucky me no Paris 2.0

With their microphone broken and the next one waiting for his measurement upstairs (any fellow headfier?), I offered Stefan Mayer and Stefan Bock to lend them my inear microphones including my Dekonis. They brought them later this evening to my hotel although the hotel owner was not able to find them at first in the morning. And while I tried to explain to him that it was probably a small plastic bag with something looking similar like inear headhones, he searched the reception and did not find them. After me contacting the Stefans and Stefan Bock confirming he had handed them to the receptionist the hotel owner called the receptionist. And oh wonder, the bag was in the drawer behind the reception (not visible for me) that belongs to the room. The owners excuse was that he thought this must have been much bigger. The hotel is a bit old, situated 300 meter away from msm-studions, a bit worn down and old fashioned and the owner is - as I believe now - not familiar with the term inear headphones.

Back home today

I was very eager to test my new PRIR. As already mentioned at least the missing azi and elevation is a bit strange.
The result when listening to Dolby Atmos music via Tidal (Fire TV 4k) with my HD800 was okay but not great, the Hifiman Ananda like in my own trials was completely of with a strong tilt to the left (I will try a man loud based on a flat eq) and the Beyerdynamic DT1770 sounded much to closed up and not real.

Would I have given up in this moment it would have been a very costly bad experience. Luckily I remembered that some of you have insisted on the importance of the manloud. So I took the HPEQ autoeq from the measurement as a base and started my manloud process. I always find it shocking how much left and right misbalances I find and how my ear is extremly sensitive in some regions and especially in the higher frequencies my hearing is less strong. I always wonder when doing my manloud how much I correct inaccuracies of the headphones and how much it is my own ears? Anyhow, after doing this and listening again to my msm PRIR I can assure you it sounded exactly as the msm room sounded.

Ultimately I needed to compare this new msm PRIR to my own older Focal 2.0 PRIR I did together with @sander99 in November 2019 which I enhanced with the BBC PRIR provided by the Smyths.

The result of the new PRIR is so much better. So there is no doubt it is useful to get your own measurement. I can fully recommend to get it done.

For quite a long time I have asked myself if I should only go with the 7.1 measurement as it is with 690 EUR (compared to 1190 EUR for the Atmos measurement at least at for-tunes) much cheaper and the studio is under 1 hour drive away from me. Now having listend to many Dolby Atmos music tracks today and using the possibility to check each speaker separately and also the four height speakers together I can report that at least for music a lot is happening in the upper speakers. Sometimes it feels almost like it has the same importance as the front speakers. Taking my experiences with personal PRIR mixed with BBC versus the msm-PRIR I believe this would downgrade the sound. But I will try this out soon using the msm-PRIR and only exchanging the height speakers with the BBC and then listening to this in A/B comparison.


My personal sound preference and why it matters
My personal experience - after the first measurement was done and we tried to test loudspeakers versus A16 - was that the msm-room felt quite dry, while my personal preference in my “sound room” in my Pilates studio is to have a little more reverb. My private training room is directly under the roof and has a roof slope on both sides of the room. As the combination of Focal speakers and REL subwoofers (standing on each other decoupled by an army of Pangea sorbothane and a thick slate plate) stand under one roof slope they use the ceiling to amplify the speakers. The additional height the Focal speakers have sound much better since I work standing while teaching.

Here are two pictures showing my personal listening setup while teaching Pilates.





The two pictures (with one of my teachers in the foreground) are a month old and since then I have further optimized the room acoustic. At the moment with 5 Hofa diffusors, 2 addictive sound AbFusers and 4 Silent4 absorbers (with 1 cm additional space behind them). All pictures also have an acoustic foam behind them. The soundstage in my personal studio is just amazing and reaches 2 to 3 meter back behind my loudspeakers.

This is unfortunately not the case with the room and speaker setup at msm-studios. It has a neutral and very clear sound but no soundstage behind the speakers. Recording and Mastering engineers obviously have a different goal.

So when talking about the end result one will get when doing a PRIR at msm, if everything goes right, is a copy of the Atmos room of msm and this might not be your personal preference.

Summary

Sorry for writing such a long text but I felt it was necessary to explain my summary.
Overall I am very happy that I have done this PRIR measurement at msm-studios.
I am not completely happy with the process since I believe that

• as a user - and compared to most of you, uneducated user - should not know more than the German distributor (quick reminder: 1. internal test sound loops are connected to the PRIR as confirmed my Smyth, 2. the headtracker can be used in asynchronous measurements and is advised to be used, 3. the quality of the measurement can be assessed during the measurements, 4. why would Smyth provide a grounding wrist band if it is unnecessary?).
• the setup should include redundancies in case something breaks. A second A16, a second set of inear microphones … What would have they done with the person after me if I would have not lend them my microphones? Who knows how long has he travelled, taken one or two days off, paying a hotel etc.
• when paying 1190 EUR (and yes for-tunes invoiced me for the full amount) there should be no tight scheduling (in my case 2 hours) in case something goes wrong. As it did and there was no time to make entirely sure my measurement was a success.
• I shouldn’t find out when creating my listening room that “Azi” and “Elev” are not the same as they were at msm. This could also have been found out on site at msm. Either they could have corrected it directly at msm studios or, if the error is unclear, they could have tried to clarify this with Smyth and taken a new measurement with me the next morning.

I am sure I will be very happy with my measurements in the future when the last questions have been clarified, since then I would recommend to use my experience to discuss up front with a provider of PRIRs how to make sure two full A16 sets are on site, enough time is available and a hotline to Smyth is possible that day when unforeseeable things happen.

 

[Got the Shakes]

Encountered a weird bug today. A couple of times I wasn’t getting any sound to my headphones from the A16. Turns out that if my A16 boots up and anything other than preset 1 is the last preset used that I might not get sound. Switching to preset 1 and then back to whatever preset I want to use fixes it.

While I am enjoying Auro 3D and Auromatic upmixing on my A16, I have found that I have, since installing the upgrade, been experiencing a consistent glitch in the firmware. I seem to recall that a similar glitch may have also occurred for some A16 users after installing DTS:X. I'm not 100% certain, but I seem to recall @Got the Shakes posting about this glitch in previous posts.

What I am referring to is the experience of the A16 being rendered silent unless/until I select a stock BBC preset. I then follow up by selecting my chosen nonstock preset, resulting in the restoration of sound. As I recall, the A16 needs to be returned fully to stock presets in order to rectify this. Once rectified, other presets can repopulate the stock ones, with no further recurrence of this silence glitch.

I do appreciate the fact that this has, thankfully, not been universally experienced by other A16 users who have done the Auro 3D upgrade.

My question is this: would doing a full factory restore leave the A16 in fully functional DTS:X and Auro 3D upgraded status, or is there another non-destructive, preferred method to meet the same goal? I thank you in advance and look forward to reading your recommendation in answer to this post.

@Got the Shakes, thanks for your reply. Oh well, first world problems. Or to quote Boris Johnson, “them’s the breaks.”

So I got curious and I'm trying to pinpoint when this issue actually started for me. I found the post from myself that I quoted here from August 11th, 2021. According to the Smyth's website, firmware 2.00 released June 8th, 2021 and firmware 2.05 (the one needed for DTS) launched on October 20th 2021. So for me the no sound preset dance problem started after 2.00 and before 2.05/DTS. Definitely strange how it's different updates and upgrades that are causing the issue for different people. It is honestly about the only complaint I have about the A16 and do hope it's something they can track down and fix.

 

[Litlgi74]

My experiences doing a Dolby Atmos PRIR measurement at msm studios in Munich, 11.7.2022

I arrived a day early in Munich, as it is 7 hour drive for me to get their and took a hotel close to the msm studio.
My appointment was Monday at 2 pm and I was met in the front, having a small smoke break, by Stefan Mayer, the owner of For-Tune, the German distributor of Smyth Research. He guided me downstairs,where Stefan Bock, Director | Engineer & Producer at msm-studios was already preparing the Realiser and the asynchronous files for the measurement.



You can find a more detailed description of the msm Atmos room here: https://www.msm-studios.com/studio-f



Here are two more pictures I took.





Start of the measurements

After the preparation was done I sat down in the mastering chair and Stefan Mayer and I discussed which foamies for holding the inear microphones to use.



They had three bags with different sizes with the yellow foamies provided by Smyth. As suggested by @esimms86 and @Litlgi74 we used the Dekoni Gemini Bulletz 3 mm, sample pack. Pulling the Dekoni over the inear microphone end is a bit cumbersome but it worked after a while. Stefan Mayer was extremly carefull that the distance of insertion for both microphones in the Dekonis was exactly the same. I tried the medium size of the Dekoni and it felt safe and Stefan Mayer was almost happy with the fit. He only did very tiny adjustments comparing both ears. I can confirm that the Dekonis are the way to go since the stayed completely secure in my ears throughout the whole PRIR and HPEQ measurement of three headphones. Way easier than the yellow Smyth foamies and highly recommended.

I discussed with Stefan Mayer the need for the blue grounding wrist strap (for earthing body during PRIR measurements), and both Stefan Mayer and Stefan Bock were of the opinion it is not necessary. Let me just say that later on for the second measurement I insisted on using it.
Also we discussed again - since we had spoken about it on the telephone - the pro and cons of using the head tracker during the measurement. At this time both Stefans were of the opinion that while using the asynchronous method the use of the headtracker was not possible

This is what I found after the measurement in the evening in the manual.



The first measurement started.
I was rather surprised that while doing the sine sweeps I clearly heard some small vibrations and rattling. I clearly remembered that when @sander99 and I did our measurements in my Pilates studio (different room than on the photos below back then and much less optimal) there also was some rattling in one loudspeaker and Sander and I were very concerned about this.
Stefan Bock assured me that he was also puzzled back then when doing their own PRIR and he even tried to reduce these resonance rattlings but was not able to do so. In his opinion the sine sweep in this loudness will always create such phenomenons. Interestingly I can not remember I heard such things in the little hotel room the Smyths had at their audio show in Paris.

Back to msm. Stefan Bock assisted Stefan Mayer in handing me my three headphones: Sennheiser HD 800, Hifiman Ananda, beyerdynamic DT 1770.
After the measurements were done I tested with my trusted HD 800. I was shocked in a negative way. After playing the same Dolby Atmos Jazz track, mixed at msm studios, I had heard via the A16 virtualization something which sounded more like an ordinary headphone mix down. Everything in my head.

Both Stefans looked a bit puzzled. I suggested we used the internal test tone to to see speaker by speaker how it sounded.
Using the function of the test loop almost all speakers sounded well positioned but the left and right speaker sounded each like a loudspeaker array of several loudspeakers on the side of the room, reaching from the front to the side on ear level, all while only selecting eg the left front speaker or the front right speaker.

At this time Stefan Mayer said that in his opinion the test loop was not using the PRIR and the HPEQ.
Today I spoke to Mike Smyth about this topic and he confirmed - what some of you already suggested - that the test loop will use the last selected PRIR, HPEQ and the last used listening room e.g. Dolby Atmos or DTS or PCM.

I also asked Stefan Mayer if he had used the tool of the A16 for assessing the quality of the measurement. He told me he was not aware that this was possible.
Again I needed to check after the measurement was done - no internet in the cellar and also no printout of the manual - and sorry to say, at least the manual begs to differ:




Stefan Bock went through the room settings and found a mistake in the Azi of two speakers. I made a photo of the correct settings just in case there would be a problem later.



And yes there was a problem when I returned today and tried to creat my 9.1.4 room. Since now when I create my own 9.1.4 room the last two speakers 15 and 16, Ltr and Rtr have no Azi and no elevation.



Stefan Mayer from for—tune has been informed today and I have sent him a video with all the steps I have taken. He promised me to contact Smyth to see where the problem stems from.




Second measurement

Going back to Monday at msm studios, it was already 3 pm and I was informed that at 4 pm there would be another PRIR measurement. With only one hour left time became a scarce resource.

So after Stefan Bock had corrected the values inside the A16 for the room and Stefan Mayer had checked the position of the inears, again the Dekoni make this much easier and again he had not much to correct, we did the next measurement. Right at the start an error message occurred and Stefan Mayer diagnosed quickly that one of the inear microphones had give up. Lucky us I had my on pair of inear microphones with me, since otherwise the whole measurement process would have ended, for which I had taken a vacation booked two nights in a Munich hotel and driven 7 hours would have ended there and then. Fun fact, when I told my family the story, they said “Paris 2.0”. As some of you might remember, I dragged my family after backing the A16 on Kickstarter, to Paris at 8.10.2016, and never received my measurements.

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/smyth-research-realiser-a16.807459/post-12920497

When my family found out some weeks ago, questioning me rightfully why I had to do again such an measurement for the A16, they became really mad at me and Smyth. Hence “Paris 2.0”.

So installing the Dekoni on my own inear microphone, me insisting on the blue grounding belt, and after the necessary ear check, Stefan Bock gave me the tip when looking in the 30 degree angles not to look a the loudspeakers but a little bit more to the side in the corner. With no headtracker available I did as I was told.

Speaker PRIR measurements and HPEQ with all three headphones were done and again I tried the test loops. And again to my total frustration I heard instead of a left and right speaker a wall array of loudspeakers. Stefan Bock suggested we tried some music, which sounded much more convincing this time. We changed to a classical piece with four instruments. I clearly heard the piano totally on my right side (not front right) and I was very fearful that this might be again this array mistake, but luckily Stefan Bock, who had done this Dolby Atmos recording could confirm that the piano was placed correctly and as the rest of the musicians started to play it became clear that this measurement was a success.

Regarding the problem with the test loop and hearing not a defined left and right speaker I talked today with Mike Smyth and he asked me to send him my PRIR. We will see what will happen.

Stefan Mayer copied the PRIR file and the HPEQ files to my SD card (and also send them to me via email). So lucky me no Paris 2.0

With their microphone broken and the next one waiting for his measurement upstairs (any fellow headfier?), I offered Stefan Mayer and Stefan Bock to lend them my inear microphones including my Dekonis. They brought them later this evening to my hotel although the hotel owner was not able to find them at first in the morning. And while I tried to explain to him that it was probably a small plastic bag with something looking similar like inear headhones, he searched the reception and did not find them. After me contacting the Stefans and Stefan Bock confirming he had handed them to the receptionist the hotel owner called the receptionist. And oh wonder, the bag was in the drawer behind the reception (not visible for me) that belongs to the room. The owners excuse was that he thought this must have been much bigger. The hotel is a bit old, situated 300 meter away from msm-studions, a bit worn down and old fashioned and the owner is - as I believe now - not familiar with the term inear headphones.

Back home today

I was very eager to test my new PRIR. As already mentioned at least the missing azi and elevation is a bit strange.
The result when listening to Dolby Atmos music via Tidal (Fire TV 4k) with my HD800 was okay but not great, the Hifiman Ananda like in my own trials was completely of with a strong tilt to the left (I will try a man loud based on a flat eq) and the Beyerdynamic DT1770 sounded much to closed up and not real.

Would I have given up in this moment it would have been a very costly bad experience. Luckily I remembered that some of you have insisted on the importance of the manloud. So I took the HPEQ autoeq from the measurement as a base and started my manloud process. I always find it shocking how much left and right misbalances I find and how my ear is extremly sensitive in some regions and especially in the higher frequencies my hearing is less strong. I always wonder when doing my manloud how much I correct inaccuracies of the headphones and how much it is my own ears? Anyhow, after doing this and listening again to my msm PRIR I can assure you it sounded exactly as the msm room sounded.

Ultimately I needed to compare this new msm PRIR to my own older Focal 2.0 PRIR I did together with @sander99 in November 2019 which I enhanced with the BBC PRIR provided by the Smyths.

The result of the new PRIR is so much better. So there is no doubt it is useful to get your own measurement. I can fully recommend to get it done.

For quite a long time I have asked myself if I should only go with the 7.1 measurement as it is with 690 EUR (compared to 1190 EUR for the Atmos measurement at least at for-tunes) much cheaper and the studio is under 1 hour drive away from me. Now having listend to many Dolby Atmos music tracks today and using the possibility to check each speaker separately and also the four height speakers together I can report that at least for music a lot is happening in the upper speakers. Sometimes it feels almost like it has the same importance as the front speakers. Taking my experiences with personal PRIR mixed with BBC versus the msm-PRIR I believe this would downgrade the sound. But I will try this out soon using the msm-PRIR and only exchanging the height speakers with the BBC and then listening to this in A/B comparison.


My personal sound preference and why it matters
My personal experience - after the first measurement was done and we tried to test loudspeakers versus A16 - was that the msm-room felt quite dry, while my personal preference in my “sound room” in my Pilates studio is to have a little more reverb. My private training room is directly under the roof and has a roof slope on both sides of the room. As the combination of Focal speakers and REL subwoofers (standing on each other decoupled by an army of Pangea sorbothane and a thick slate plate) stand under one roof slope they use the ceiling to amplify the speakers. The additional height the Focal speakers have sound much better since I work standing while teaching.

Here are two pictures showing my personal listening setup while teaching Pilates.





The two pictures (with one of my teachers in the foreground) are a month old and since then I have further optimized the room acoustic. At the moment with 5 Hofa diffusors, 2 addictive sound AbFusers and 4 Silent4 absorbers (with 1 cm additional space behind them). All pictures also have an acoustic foam behind them. The soundstage in my personal studio is just amazing and reaches 2 to 3 meter back behind my loudspeakers.

This is unfortunately not the case with the room and speaker setup at msm-studios. It has a neutral and very clear sound but no soundstage behind the speakers. Recording and Mastering engineers obviously have a different goal.

So when talking about the end result one will get when doing a PRIR at msm, if everything goes right, is a copy of the Atmos room of msm and this might not be your personal preference.

Summary

Sorry for writing such a long text but I felt it was necessary to explain my summary.
Overall I am very happy that I have done this PRIR measurement at msm-studios.
I am not completely happy with the process since I believe that

• as a user - and compared to most of you, uneducated user - should not know more than the German distributor (quick reminder: 1. internal test sound loops are connected to the PRIR as confirmed my Smyth, 2. the headtracker can be used in asynchronous measurements and is advised to be used, 3. the quality of the measurement can be assessed during the measurements, 4. why would Smyth provide a grounding wrist band if it is unnecessary?).
• the setup should include redundancies in case something breaks. A second A16, a second set of inear microphones … What would have they done with the person after me if I would have not lend them my microphones? Who knows how long has he travelled, taken one or two days off, paying a hotel etc.
• when paying 1190 EUR (and yes for-tunes invoiced me for the full amount) there should be no tight scheduling (in my case 2 hours) in case something goes wrong. As it did and there was no time to make entirely sure my measurement was a success.
• I shouldn’t find out when creating my listening room that “Azi” and “Elev” are not the same as they were at msm. This could also have been found out on site at msm. Either they could have corrected it directly at msm studios or, if the error is unclear, they could have tried to clarify this with Smyth and taken a new measurement with me the next morning.

I am sure I will be very happy with my measurements in the future when the last questions have been clarified, since then I would recommend to use my experience to discuss up front with a provider of PRIRs how to make sure two full A16 sets are on site, enough time is available and a hotline to Smyth is possible that day when unforeseeable things happen.

@Richter Di

What a wonderful write up and description of your in-person PRIR process.


In my experience... While it is extremely important that the speaker's physical elevation and azimuth angles are correctly set to the appropriate spec for the decoder (Dolby, DTS, Auro) in use.. the values displayed in the Realiser are irrelevant. They have no bearing (currently) on the sound or head tracking abilities of the machine.

A word of caution for anyone considering creating their own PRIR or even making an HPEQ. James has told me repeatedly that the microphones are the weakest link in the Realiser chain. They are highly sensitive and vulnerable to the smallest static discharge. The blue static strap should be worn and connected to the Realiser anytime you are handling the microphones. The microphones are handmade by The Smyths and cost $140 to replace... If they have them in stock.

When creating a PRIR or HPEQ.. it's important to use the Listen to Mics on HPB feature of the Realiser. This feature is used to verify that the microphones are working properly and are level matched.. without doing so, you're gambling with the results of your PRIR or HPEQ.

With such sensitive equipment needed for a time consuming process... Please don't take unnecessary risks with the microphones.

PS...

I also asked Stefan Mayer if he had used the tool of the A16 for assessing the quality of the measurement. He told me he was not aware that this was possible.
Again I needed to check after the measurement was done - no internet in the cellar and also no printout of the manual - and sorry to say, at least the manual begs to differ:

This is an invaluable feature.. not only to assess the quality (IRVR and IPER values) of the measurement.. but also to use as a double backup to ensure the microphones are functioning properly.

It looks like there is a typo in the manual.. in order to access this feature.. you press "test" button after the PRIR is complete and before it is saved. To exit the screen.. you press "test" one more time. You will then have the option to press Enter button to save the PRIR or SPK to repeat the measurement.

 

[Om ma Ni]

Stefan Mayer was extremly carefull that the distance of insertion for both microphones in the Dekonis was exactly the same

So what is the "best" insertion angle, distance for the inner microphones to be positioned according to msm studio staff?

 

[Om ma Ni]

Was the A16 denoise function used during the msm studio recording?