[462429]

First of all, everybody has right to think and feel and dream of Realiser A16 and it's development in their OWN way and THIS is the right place to express it.
Second, it is not easy to sell the A16 pledge at all. Because Heavenly Sound raised it's price a lot (and the laws of market force you to take that into account), but at the same time Smyth Research with their disappointing behavior lowered it's attractiveness a lot so that nobody is ready to buy it even with the 50% discount.
Third, when Kickstarter talks about delays they definitely don't have years in mind.

And by the way, does anybody understand, what 'digital PCM sources' have to do with the Dolby certification?

 

[krismusic]

First of all, everybody has right to think and feel and dream of Realiser A16 and it's development in their OWN way and THIS is the right place to express it.
Second, it is not easy to sell the A16 pledge at all. Because Heavenly Sound raised it's price a lot (and the laws of market force you to take that into account), but at the same time Smyth Research with their disappointing behavior lowered it's attractiveness a lot so that nobody is ready to buy it even with the 50% discount.
Third, when Kickstarter talks about delays they definitely don't have years in mind.

And by the way, does anybody understand, what 'digital PCM sources' have to do with the Dolby certification?

You are, of course, right that people have the right to express themselves. I rather regret my post as it has kicked off a lot of anger. Someone has just offered to buy a Kickstarter pledge a few posts ago...

 

[raband]

And by the way, does anybody understand, what 'digital PCM sources' have to do with the Dolby certification?

Probably off at a tangent, but have been wondering for a while if the "new" restrictions bought into Dolby Certification is of any matter to Smyth, given it was bought in after the design, software and hardware for the A16 had been sorted. From what I understand the upmixing/converting to/from a preferred speaker layout/method was one of the integrated "base" technologies on the Realiser.

Trying to find ways around the restriction of something that's inbuilt into their hardware could well be a reason to cause delays in presenting the product for certification.

https://www.audioholics.com/audio-technologies/dolby-non-native-upmixing-atmos

New Dolby restrictions:

Dolby Changes The Game With Mandate To All Licensing Partners

The ability to mix and match upmixers appears to be in danger. Here at Audioholics, we got our hands on a copy of a new mandate from Dolby that was recently sent to ALL of their licensee partners with the following guidelines:

• Native Dolby Atmos content shall NOT be up-mixed, surround or height virtualized by any 3rd party competitor upmixer
• Channel-Based DD/DD+, Dolby TrueHD 5.1 and 7.1 codecs shall not be height virtualized by any 3rd party upmixer

Realiser's descriptions:

Again we do not expect this testing to be problematic since the codec board we purchase from Momentum Data Systems will come with code already pre-certified by Dolby, DTS and Auro Technologies.
(I wonder if the pre-certification on the board is still current given the changes to Dolby's terms, or if the board would meet current certification)

The versatile Illusonic N:M up-mixer allows all source material from 2.0 stereo up to 7.1 discrete surround to be upmixed and rendered to any 16-ch immersive or 3D loudspeaker format.
(isn't this basically what the restrictions would prevent?)

 

[462429]

Probably off at a tangent, but have been wondering for a while if the "new" restrictions bought into Dolby Certification is of any matter to Smyth, given it was bought in after the design, software and hardware for the A16 had been sorted. From what I understand the upmixing/converting to/from a preferred speaker layout/method was one of the integrated "base" technologies on the Realiser.

Trying to find ways around the restriction of something that's inbuilt into their hardware could well be a reason to cause delays in presenting the product for certification.

https://www.audioholics.com/audio-technologies/dolby-non-native-upmixing-atmos

New Dolby restrictions:

Dolby Changes The Game With Mandate To All Licensing Partners

The ability to mix and match upmixers appears to be in danger. Here at Audioholics, we got our hands on a copy of a new mandate from Dolby that was recently sent to ALL of their licensee partners with the following guidelines:

• Native Dolby Atmos content shall NOT be up-mixed, surround or height virtualized by any 3rd party competitor upmixer
• Channel-Based DD/DD+, Dolby TrueHD 5.1 and 7.1 codecs shall not be height virtualized by any 3rd party upmixer

Realiser's descriptions:

Again we do not expect this testing to be problematic since the codec board we purchase from Momentum Data Systems will come with code already pre-certified by Dolby, DTS and Auro Technologies.
(I wonder if the pre-certification on the board is still current given the changes to Dolby's terms, or if the board would meet current certification)

The versatile Illusonic N:M up-mixer allows all source material from 2.0 stereo up to 7.1 discrete surround to be upmixed and rendered to any 16-ch immersive or 3D loudspeaker format.
(isn't this basically what the restrictions would prevent?)

Yes, yes, but PCM is neutral, isn't it? How can Dolby dictate what to do or don't do with PCM?

 

[raband]

Yes, yes, but PCM is neutral, isn't it? How can Dolby dictate what to do or don't do with PCM?

No idea, maybe the unit can take a Dolby source, convert it to PCM and then upmix it, running foul of the license?

From the info Smyth have given, the certification appears to be a lot harder and a lot more involved than they initially designed for (they initially said it was almost a formality and could be done while the rest of the interface/software etc was completed).

There may well be other requirements/restrictions that have also been introduced since the final design was signed off on that are causing issues.

 

[raband]

Yes, yes, but PCM is neutral, isn't it? How can Dolby dictate what to do or don't do with PCM?

From another site:

Recent updates to the licenses now also specify which upmixer may be chosen for use with each particular type of content.

https://emotiva.com/blogs/latest-1/a-brand-new-path-dolby-atmos-and-dts-x-is-here

The table at the end suggests Dolby (and others?) restricting PCM etc being upmixed to Atmos?

 

[462429]

From another site:

Recent updates to the licenses now also specify which upmixer may be chosen for use with each particular type of content.

https://emotiva.com/blogs/latest-1/a-brand-new-path-dolby-atmos-and-dts-x-is-here

The table at the end suggests Dolby (and others?) restricting PCM etc being upmixed to Atmos?

Yes, thank you, that is probably the answer. I forgot that Dolby Atmos was not only a name for an audio (file) format, but also for a channels/speakers layout.

 

[krismusic]

I don't want to sell my pledge but if I did I would be happy enough to get my stake back. I wouldn't expect to make a profit on something I had lost confidence in.

 

[raband]

Yes, thank you, that is probably the answer. I forgot that Dolby Atmos was not only a name for an audio (file) format, but also for a channels/speakers layout.

This was probably the better sentence to use from that article.

We are also required, as a condition of the license requirements, to avoid offering specific combinations of channel assignments and upmixing options

 

[Erik Garci]

Yes, yes, but PCM is neutral, isn't it? How can Dolby dictate what to do or don't do with PCM?

No idea, maybe the unit can take a Dolby source, convert it to PCM and then upmix it, running foul of the license?

The table at the end suggests Dolby (and others?) restricting PCM etc being upmixed to Atmos?

There seems to be a loophole. The device can convert any format to PCM on an HDMI output, and then a loopback cable can feed that HDMI output to another HDMI input for any upmixer.

Example:
Dolby Digital content ==> HDMI input #1 ==> Dolby Digital decoder ==> HDMI PCM output ==> HDMI input #2 ==> DTS Neural:X upmixer

 

[AxelCloris]

We've removed some posts from the thread that did not meet our Posting Guidelines. Let's please keep the discussion related to the A16, not one another. Also please remember that we do not allow the sale of products not in your possession on Head-Fi.

 

[raband]

Dolby Digital content ==> HDMI input #1 ==> Dolby Digital decoder ==> HDMI PCM output ==> HDMI input #2 ==> DTS Neural:X upmixer

Only the one HDMI out.

Won't be possible to use the HDMI passthrough at the same time if you need to get a signal to the TV

 

[Erik Garci]

Only the one HDMI out.

Won't be possible to use the HDMI passthrough at the same time if you need to get a signal to the TV

You can add an HDMI splitter that feeds both the Realiser and the TV.

 

[462429]

I don't want to sell my pledge but if I did I would be happy enough to get my stake back. I wouldn't expect to make a profit on something I had lost confidence in.

If you make a profit, it is easier for you to get over a broken dream and easier to compensate loss regarding dedicated player (Oppo 103), dedicated headphones (HD600), dedicated discs (yes, 18 3D audio blu-rays so far)...

There seems to be a loophole. The device can convert any format to PCM on an HDMI output, and then a loopback cable can feed that HDMI output to another HDMI input for any upmixer.
Example:
Dolby Digital content ==> HDMI input #1 ==> Dolby Digital decoder ==> HDMI PCM output ==> HDMI input #2 ==> DTS Neural:X upmixer

I'm afraid somebody said HDMI output to be restricted to 2 PCM channels only...

 

[462429]

This was probably the better sentence to use from that article.

We are also required, as a condition of the license requirements, to avoid offering specific combinations of channel assignments and upmixing options

Yes, that's it! Unfortunately...