Skeptico Saloon: An Objectivist Joint

[Steve Eddy]

How about one of these? Just don't forget to put a CD Mat under them.

se

 

[StanD]

se

Well I can think of some guys that believe an amp has to pass 90 MHz to sound good, gotta use an RF dummy load. Heck, I can pass gas and feel good with a different kind of load. 

 

[castleofargh]

 

those no load measurements for DAPs... cowon always gave that on all its models and I've complained for years about how useless it was. I whined recently about stereophile doing only that for the pono.
"hey you'll be using a really low impedance expensive IEM/CIEM with those portable devices? let me measure how good it is into 100000ohm for you!" if that's not a troll I don't know what is.

Wait, what?

Was looking at John's Pono measurements and he did them into a 600 ohm load. I agree he should have also used something more like a 32 ohm load, but 600 ohms isn't exactly no load.

se

yup some stuff into 600ohm others into 100kohm. not the same thing, but both strange when portable headphones are rarely above 50ohm and so many IEMs these days reach below 16ohm. what's a FR graph into 100Kohm is telling us about a portable DAP? that I could probably use the HO as a line output. great, I take that information, but where are the ones I really need?
 
to me it's even more important with the pono because I want to see the actual impact of not using negative feedback and all the stuff done for "time smearing" while sacrificing FR.
if the pono does good and the sacrifices end up being 0.2db somewhere, then great, we know that when it's well done we indeed can get good results.
and if the measurements are all over the place, then we would know why almost any engineer believes negative feedback to have benefits that massively overrun the side effects.
 
I would have thought that more people would be interested, and that measurements would be all over the place. we discussed that a little with RRod in PM and that's it. 2years of "mp3 iz baaddd", "we don't know the difference between dynamic compression and mp3 compression, but we'll still tell you about it" in every magazines, on every TV show, but what about the pono? nothing. John's review is the closest thing there is

, and I'm actually grateful, we at least know a little about the output impedance."that's something". except that he doesn't measure what matters for a DAP. he just did stuff that where pretty much assured to look good, and to me, it's more like an endorsement of the pono where we show what can be showed and forget about actual real life use.

 

[uchihaitachi]

 
yup some stuff into 600ohm others into 100kohm. not the same thing, but both strange when portable headphones are rarely above 50ohm and so many IEMs these days reach below 16ohm. what's a FR graph into 100Kohm is telling us about a portable DAP? that I could probably use the HO as a line output. great, I take that information, but where are the ones I really need?
 
to me it's even more important with the pono because I want to see the actual impact of not using negative feedback and all the stuff done for "time smearing" while sacrificing FR.
if the pono does good and the sacrifices end up being 0.2db somewhere, then great, we know that when it's well done we indeed can get good results.
and if the measurements are all over the place, then we would know why almost any engineer believes negative feedback to have benefits that massively overrun the side effects.
 
I would have thought that more people would be interested, and that measurements would be all over the place. we discussed that a little with RRod in PM and that's it. 2years of "mp3 iz baaddd", "we don't know the difference between dynamic compression and mp3 compression, but we'll still tell you about it" in every magazines, on every TV show, but what about the pono? nothing. John's review is the closest thing there is

, and I'm actually grateful, we at least know a little about the output impedance."that's something". except that he doesn't measure what matters for a DAP. he just did stuff that where pretty much assured to look good, and to me, it's more like an endorsement of the pono where we show what can be showed and forget about actual real life use.

Do you know of any mp3 players then that come out shining to after a legitimately conducted battery of tests?
 
All the technical measurements seem to have faults in one way or the other

 

[Steve Eddy]

Well I can think of some guys that believe an amp has to pass 90 MHz to sound good, gotta use an RF dummy load. Heck, I can pass gas and feel good with a different kind of load. 

HA!

Ewwww.

se

 

[Steve Eddy]

yup some stuff into 600ohm others into 100kohm. not the same thing, but both strange when portable headphones are rarely above 50ohm and so many IEMs these days reach below 16ohm. what's a FR graph into 100Kohm is telling us about a portable DAP? that I could probably use the HO as a line output. great, I take that information, but where are the ones I really need?

to me it's even more important with the pono because I want to see the actual impact of not using negative feedback and all the stuff done for "time smearing" while sacrificing FR.
if the pono does good and the sacrifices end up being 0.2db somewhere, then great, we know that when it's well done we indeed can get good results.
and if the measurements are all over the place, then we would know why almost any engineer believes negative feedback to have benefits that massively overrun the side effects.

I would have thought that more people would be interested, and that measurements would be all over the place. we discussed that a little with RRod in PM and that's it. 2years of "mp3 iz baaddd", "we don't know the difference between dynamic compression and mp3 compression, but we'll still tell you about it" in every magazines, on every TV show, but what about the pono? nothing. John's review is the closest thing there is , and I'm actually grateful, we at least know a little about the output impedance."that's something". except that he doesn't measure what matters for a DAP. he just did stuff that where pretty much assured to look good, and to me, it's more like an endorsement of the pono where we show what can be showed and forget about actual real life use.

Yeah, I understand, and agree they should have tested into lower impedance loads. Was just picking the nit that it wasn't all tested with no load is all. You know how I am sometimes.

se

 

[StanD]

Yeah, I understand, and agree they should have tested into lower impedance loads. Was just picking the nit that it wasn't all tested with no load is all. You know how I am sometimes.

se

Is that why the North Koreans want to fully test their nukes?

 

[castleofargh]

Originally Posted by uchihaitachi /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 
Do you know of any mp3 players then that come out shining to after a legitimately conducted battery of tests?
 
All the technical measurements seem to have faults in one way or the other

I know we look like we don't want to answer you, but there is no answer because there isn't enough data.
 
to me it mainly depends on the headphone. with the proper headphone specs, even a cellphone will measure real great. the fun starts when we go into hard to drive stuff, and really easy to drive stuff. both ends are troublesome for the amp section of a DAP and stuff optimized for one end might suck at the other end. so the perfect DAP is most likely BS unless it has a really great amp section. something that strangely enough, some of the most expensive DAPs don't have(ZX2 anyone?).
 
add to that your own needs for screen size, weight, functions, and most likely you'll end up like me with no clear choice because nothing does all that you want.
I like the sound quality of the X1, and into my amp it's really a great source. but the functionalities...
I like my sony A15 because it's small and I charge it maybe every 10days or so, using it is cool really, but 4ohm and some hiss make it hard for a few of my IEMs(and overall specs aren't amazing). and TBH I preferred the UI of my A867, except that the battery sucks. and those are the DAPs I really like and enjoy using...
 
I've tried a good deal of DAPs that are a nightmare to use, bugs, no screen, limited file format, super loud hiss, strong roll off in the bass or the trebles on IEMs, did you try the touchscreen on the dx50 when it came out? did you try carrying a colorfly CK4 or a studioV or a X3 near a cellphone? 
looking for the right DAP is a battle for me. and we all have our own preferences, that makes it even less likely to be able to suggest a proper DAP to somebody else.
 
also I dislike both android and apple for mostly nn audio reasons, so that's a great limit for me.
in the end I use the sony A15 with some etyKid IEMs most of the time ^_^. that's how I roll when I have a pair of jh13 that are still my favorite IEM once EQed and played into my amp. but I'm at a point where good portable sound is a bother more than a pleasure. and the only reason why I'm not using one of my sansa clips, is the battery life of the A15. else rockboxed stuff are really the best.
 
that's not what you're asking, but I don't have a better answer, measurements just aren't available and the proper amp is a better answer to sound quality than proper DAP.

 

[bigshot]

  Do you know of any mp3 players then that come out shining to after a legitimately conducted battery of tests?

 
iPods. But I would imagine most DAPs are audibly transparent with the right headphones.

 

[castleofargh]

Yeah, I understand, and agree they should have tested into lower impedance loads. Was just picking the nit that it wasn't all tested with no load is all. You know how I am sometimes.

se

sure, TBH I made my post from my memories of me whining after reading innerfidelity's post that linked to stereophile. so last time I looked at the stereophile page it was at the end of march. and obviously my hater's mind remembered the 1000kohm more than anything else.

 

[StanD]

   
iPods. But I would imagine most DAPs are audibly transparent with the right headphones.

iPod Touch 5G, if you can live with the limited storage space. In any case you can store plenty of 320 kbps mp3's in 32 or 64 GB. It can also connect to an external DAC using the Lightening CCK cable, possibly requiring a powered USB Hub depending on the DAC.

 

[uchihaitachi]

  iPod Touch 5G, if you can live with the limited storage space. In any case you can store plenty of 320 kbps mp3's in 32 or 64 GB. It can also connect to an external DAC using the Lightening CCK cable, possibly requiring a powered USB Hub depending on the DAC.

Is that the on Ken Rockwell did extremely detailed measurements for with and without load?

 

[StanD]

  Is that the on Ken Rockwell did extremely detailed measurements for with and without load?

I believe so. I have one and it sounds great and does work with an external DAC that no longer requires Apple certification. I've used it with 3 different DACs, 2 required a powered UDB Hub.

 

[uchihaitachi]

  I believe so. I have one and it sounds great and does work with an external DAC that no longer requires Apple certification. I've used it with 3 different DACs, 2 required a powered UDB Hub.

I have clearly been influenced by the anti apple vibes in head-fi... HAving read the technical reviews, it's a mightily high performing dap. Will probably go for that, thanks for the recommendation.

 

[StanD]

  I have clearly been influenced by the anti apple vibes in head-fi... HAving read the technical reviews, it's a mightily high performing dap. Will probably go for that, thanks for the recommendation.

I'm not much of an Apple fan, I use Android phones and Tablets. But this little guy works nicely. Mostly when on the go I use my Galaxy Note 3 with a variety of player software.
On Apple/iOS, look for Neutron MP (Music Player) which started out on Android. This has a parametric EQ and sounds great on either platform. I also stream from Google Play (Subscription) on both Android and iOS.