Single Driver vs Multiple Drivers... My thoughts on the trend.

[ClieOS]

Quote:

Originally Posted by dookiex /img/forum/go_quote.gif So you throw standards out the window yet are voicing your belief that armatures are superior based on a niche standard? How ironic.

Wow, didn't you ever read people' replies before you post your own?

Quote:

Originally Posted by ClieOS /img/forum/go_quote.gif ...The idea of believing dynamic must be better than armature (or vise versa) is silly because neither are in anyway perfect enough to totally replace each other....

Quote:

Originally Posted by ClieOS /img/forum/go_quote.gif One thing that I must draw your attention to is, to me, neither armature or dynamic are perfect, nor are both single and multiple transducers configuration. They all have their own pros and cons than can not be dismissed of, and neither of them have proved to be the 'end-all'. As I said in my second reply in this thread, "argument of armature vs. dynamic or single vs. multiple drives is all good and fun, but in the end it is the value of a product that count." Until we perfected the IEM design (or maybe till I find my prefect IEM), I will not dismiss any possibility that either transducer's design or configuration will work, and I certainly won't limits myself to believe that musical taste doesn't play a role in finding that elusive perfect IEM design, or any headphone design in that matter.

It is funny that you keep claiming that I am the one who has the belief of armatures are superior than dynamic, yet I never said such a thing in any of my previous posts. If you do ever read my posts, you'll know that I specifically stated in all my posts that the reason I disagree with your following statement is because I, based on my own experience with all those IEM mentioned earlier (mainly EX700 and RE1 vs armatures), do not believe that you can come to the the following conclusion:

Quote:

Originally Posted by dookiex /img/forum/go_quote.gif Here's the issue with armature and dynamics. They physically work differently and thus sound different. There's really no way for a armature to reach the same performance of dynamics but dynamics can reach the performance of armatures and then some.....

Here lies the problems:
You think dynamic sounds more speaker-like, therefore it must be better than armature - which both me and elnero disagree as we believe (and trying to explain to you but you never seems to accept) why there is no such thing as 'real' sound, but only the preference of how music should sound. (More of, you disagree that there are any recording mixed or mastered by/for headphone, and I already prove that you are wrong)

I don't have a standard on how my music should sound like, may it be on speaker or headphone - that is because I know there isn't a standard of how any recorded music should be played.

You can argue all day, dookiex, but at the end you know you will get different sound signature from the same music playing through different set of speakers (or headphones). If different set of speaker can have different set of sound on the same music, how can you deny the fact that music presentation is ultimately gears dependence and how music is "suppose" to sound is a mere illusion of your own musical preference?

Mate, the real ironic here is you never seems to really get what both me and elnero trying to tell you, but you always able to claim things that you can't back up of.

actually.

 

[dookiex]

I don't think dynamics are more speaker for no reason. This is from A/B tests with the armature phones (which includes the oh so popular SA6s that are way overhyped) I have or had and the dynamics I've had or have. This is the way I pick and choose what I keep and what I sell. Your defense of armatures standing up to dynamics are fairly flawed ESPECIALLY when elnero pointed out that we are "stuck with speaker" mixes. If we are "stuck with speaker" mixes then why are we trying to use things that are further away from the intended listening equipment, such as the very tight sound of armatures which lacks body and soundstage depth. There is a reason why RE1s, RE2s, and the Yuins have gained popularity, because they broke out of the mold of the armature race, and instead went back to dynamics. How am I supposed to back anything up when you blatantly claim that armatures are just as good as dynamics in all respect even though they carry significantly differing sound signatures? Then you try to discount the fact that we listen for musicality and then state (elnero's statement) that music should be heard live and not via speakers but the mixes are made for speakers and on top of that, armatures sound the furthest from what live music sounds like in the first place? Have fun with your armatures, I left that bandwagon long ago as the sound was just not true to what the mixes in general should sound like (with the exception of the 530s).

I find it funny how both you and elneros BOTH are forgetting the fact that armatures are trying to emulate the sound of full sized headphones but at this point in time, dynamics do a much better job of that replication. Armatures however have a sound of their own but that sound is not exactly suitable for the majority of major commercially released music. Why do you think they carry the moniker of "monitors?" Because that is what they are used for, MONITORING. They isolate frequencies well but as for trying encompass the full frequency of music, they are lacking in musicality. There is a reason why Klipsch made their in-ears with so much warmth as well as Shure with their 530s, because that sound is closer to what the mix on most albums should sound like, keyword, CLOSER. You know what? In the end there's no way to voice my views without getting backlash because there's a reason why most folks on the portable phones forums are such advocates for armatures, that's because of the trend that Etymotic started years ago with the ER-4s. It's s trend and when flocks of sheep jumps on a bandwagon, companies sure as all hell are not going to change their marketing strategy (leaving the smaller companies to experiment, a.k.a. the RE series as well as the Yuin series, also it has pushed companies like Sony to produce excellent products since they are seeing the audiophile market as being a more viable market for them now with increase growth in users).

 

[thatwunguy]

i'm glad I didn't start with iem's before i did

 

[dookiex]

Just in case that ClieOS and elneros both start going on about how I'm talking out of my arse again (which they keep doing, feeding me regurgitated posts which boils down to nothing in the real world) here are some references I've found around Head-Fi which more or less backs up my so called "claims" which I really don't feel are much of a claim but more in line of stating things that many users are afraid to state on these forums due to the backlash they will receive (which obviously, I did, but I welcome it because I've had enough recommendations of products that are in all practicality, not really meant for music listening/enjoyment, analytical style hearing is really more suitable for monitoring, not enjoying music).

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f103/o...ml#post3343213

This comment from the same thread is interesting: http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f103/o...ml#post3343492
It's interesting because until recently, small in-ear dynamics have not been able to reach full sized phone sounds, which from my RE1s and definitely the EX700s, they sound remarkably closer than any armature based phones (530s come close, but not quite)

Another one where you can see how important a fuller range and closer to speaker sound is important: http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f103/o...ml#post4020717
Funny thing is that the advocate for armatures tries to tear that view down as well (pointing at you ClieOS)

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f4/dyn...9/#post3355350

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f4/why...ml#post3352358
I find that one really interesting since the in-ear dynamics are, again, very very close to full sized phones now.

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f4/dyn...7/#post2386868

Have fun ClieOS and elneros trying to advocate how armatures can match dynamics and speakers and have fun jumping around the fact that even though armatures sound DRASTICALLY different from full sized phones and speakers that music shouldn't be listened that way. There's been a few who have came on these boards to bravely state what many have on their minds even though they would get backlash. It's very much like my posts on the Monster branded Dr Dre Beats. Folks tore into me like rabid dogs but you know what, in the end, it quite obvious how elitism on Head-Fi is self-evident as yourselves have shown (claiming that I'm talking out of my arse with no technical babble to back myself up, blah blah blah, fact of the matter is all of us have listened to enough music on proper equipment to notice the drastic limitations of armatures compared to excellent dynamics).

 

[elnero]

Quote:

Originally Posted by dookiex /img/forum/go_quote.gif ESPECIALLY when elnero pointed out that we are "stuck with speaker" mixes.

You have obviously misunderstood what I wrote which was "Speakers are the standard which we got stuck with and unfortunately it is far from ideal." Meaning speakers are far from an ideal standard by which to judge music reproduction because they are far from an ideal reproduction method.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dookiex /img/forum/go_quote.gif I find it funny how both you and elneros BOTH are forgetting the fact that armatures are trying to emulate the sound of full sized headphones but at this point in time, dynamics do a much better job of that replication.

I find it funny how you forget that armatures are not trying to emulate the sound of full-sized headphones, they're reproducing music.

As to the links you provided like any of these types of threads there are varying opinions within them but there is no conclusive evidence presented that one is clearly superior than the other, it's all personal preference. In fact the results of the one with the poll shows a majority to favor armatures.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dookiex /img/forum/go_quote.gif Have fun with your armatures, I left that bandwagon long ago as the sound was just not true to what the mixes in general should sound like (with the exception of the 530s).

Then considering this thread was clearly about single vs. multiple armatures I gather what you're really doing is trolling.

If there's something I've learned about internet forums it's don't feed the troll.

 

[dookiex]

Then what is the ideal reproduction method elnero? Why haven't the recording industry used a different method? How are armature phones NOT trying to reproduce the full size headphone sound? Why then are armature based earphone companies trying to market their products as such then? Hmmmmmmm, I wonder. Thanks for running around the topic again as I have stated you would likely have done

 

[elnero]

I'm not going to repeat myself yet again. I suggest you go back and reread my posts and maybe even do a bit of research yourself.

 

[dookiex]

So, let me get this straight. You're saying that albums are stuck with being mixed for speakers which apparently is wrong according to you. Thus you basically color the sound yourself via armatures "correcting" what is supposed to be wrong but in the process, you're not getting the same sound that the album was mixed as. Hmmmmmm, interesting. Then you turn around and tell me that the links I referred to are opinions thus not valid yet on the same side of the coin you're saying that it's all subjective. So, I come on this board, pointing out the fact that dynamics have a sound that is closer to speaker than armatures but because of your listening preference (remolding music further away from it's original sound) I am wrong and armatures supposedly sound the same as dynamics and just as good? So basically, you're right and I'm wrong because you're bias for armatures hold more water supposedly? But of course, this is all subjective opinions, so non of this should be fact except that your opinion is right and mines is blatantly wrong because I have the cajones to point something out that has bothered me for quite some time except due to fear of backlash, not many have stepped up to the plate to voice their honest belief. So your almighty opinion, along with ClieOS' are the final word because of your regurgitation of charts and scientific studies and etc. etc. instead of polling (blind A/B tests) of folks trying out both dynamic and armatures both within Head-Fi and outside of Head-Fi. Yes, I do not go by these formal frequency charts mostly because it means diddly squat in the real world. If they did hold any weight, we would have albums upon albums on the rack that would sound quite strange to the majority of the world. Thanks oh great headphone supremus (based solely on post counts, not by actual qualification, nor am I technically a professional at this, but I do like to voice my opinion to let others who may be intimidated by the likes of you, if anything, just to let them know that they can voice their opinion as well instead of going "If these seemingly pros says so, they must be right, and if I feel otherwise, I must be going deaf").

I gotcha. That's why we don't see many arguments for dynamics on these boards, because they will get backlashed by the masses who are in turn following the herd because the industry basically ended up with a trend for armatures.

Thank goodness that these boards don't actually affect the industry or else Sennheiser would not be releasing in-ears using dynamic drivers. I should have expected to have gotten backlash from both you elnero and especially ClieOS (as I have searched through old posts in regards to armatures and dynamics, ClieOS is pretty vocal with his/her bias for armatures).

Oh, by the way, here's another link to a thread where another user states the obvious but we don't see the obvious stated around here much because of a inferiority complex that most laypeople have since they feel like what they feel is wrong because it is different from a lot of Head-Fi propaganda:

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f4/tru...mature-307365/

 

[dookiex]

I would also like to add the following quote from Ray Samuels site. I wanted to include this quote as it truly says what I feel I have been trying to reiterate time and time again on this particular thread (but oh no no no, I am just oh so wrong because I am supposedly talking out of my arse according to Head Supremusses, sorry, I had to say that as I felt that just sound so funny, correct me if I'm wrong, har har har):

"Now I want to listen to the same songs the way they were recorded in the past & pressed on the vinyl. It makes me smile hearing it that way. The question is do I want to have new recording being done the same way, the answer is no. I like to hear the recording the way it was intended with out adding bass boost, that to me is adding distortion. Call me what ever you want, this is my belief." - Ray Samuel

Back to my point, if it's mixed ideally for speakers, that's ideally the sound you want to have as it is the closest to what the intended sound is supposed to be. If ya mix it for binaural, then of course, use some good headphones and enjoy the effect

 

[elnero]

Quote:

Originally Posted by dookiex /img/forum/go_quote.gif So, let me get this straight. You're saying that albums are stuck with being mixed for speakers which apparently is wrong according to you.

Along with playing victim you certainly enjoy putting words into peoples mouths and twisting meanings around to try and suit yoursef. This quote you seem so focused on using was in reply to your attempt to equate speakers as a standard which headphones are striving to achieve. A two channel speaker system may be what most people use in their homes but it is by no means the ideal method of sound reproduction so saying that is the ideal that headphones should be striving for seems somewhat flawed. To me trying to get headphones to emulate speakers because that's what albums are made for is kind of like saying because highways are made for passenger vehicles you want your motorcycle to handle like a one. Maybe not the best analogy but I think it makes the point plainly enough.

Headphones are headphones they have a different presentation, some like it, some don't, some are ambivalent. I happen to enjoy headphones of all shapes and sizes and actually don't really have a preference for one type over another and yes I even tend to prefer to listen to headphones over speakers. I love the sensation of being enveloped in the music, almost being onstage with it, I don't want my headphones to try to emulate speakers, I want them to reproduce music as best as the medium can provide.

I doubt you agree and that's fine, if you believe headphones should or you prefer them to sound like speakers that's your prerogative. If you're so adamant about that though maybe you should be putting the effort into building a speaker system and not worrying so much about headphones.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dookiex /img/forum/go_quote.gif Then you turn around and tell me that the links I referred to are opinions thus not valid yet on the same side of the coin you're saying that it's all subjective.

Again you're trying to twist my words to make an argument. I never said the opinions weren't valid, in fact I've said over and over in this thread that everyone has a right to their opinion but that's all they are, opinions, they in themselves are not conclusive evidence of anything and there was no conclusive evidence to prove anything in the links you provided. The irony is though, one of the links you provided was a poll regarding armatures vs. dynamics and the majority preferred armatures which flies in the face of what you've been arguing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dookiex /img/forum/go_quote.gif So, I come on this board, pointing out the fact that dynamics have a sound that is closer to speaker than armatures

The problem is it's not a fact, it's your opinion, you've offered no compelling evidence proving otherwise. This is really the ONLY thing I've had a problem with. You seem to be under the delusion that I'm trying to change you're mind, the fact of the matter is I could care less what your opinion is but when you present you're opinion as absolute truth that's where the problems start.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dookiex /img/forum/go_quote.gif So basically, you're right and I'm wrong because you're bias for armatures hold more water supposedly?

No, I've never said you're opinion was wrong, see my statements above they apply here as well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dookiex /img/forum/go_quote.gif But of course, this is all subjective opinions, so non of this should be fact except that your opinion is right and mines is blatantly wrong because I have the cajones to point something out that has bothered me for quite some time except due to fear of backlash, not many have stepped up to the plate to voice their honest belief.

Yet again, see my previous comments above.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dookiex /img/forum/go_quote.gif Thanks oh great headphone supremus (based solely on post counts, not by actual qualification, nor am I technically a professional at this, but I do like to voice my opinion to let others who may be intimidated by the likes of you, if anything, just to let them know that they can voice their opinion as well instead of going "If these seemingly pros says so, they must be right, and if I feel otherwise, I must be going deaf").

You seem to be taking this rather personally, I suggest you take a step back and take a deep breath. Again, see my previous comments.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dookiex /img/forum/go_quote.gif I gotcha. That's why we don't see many arguments for dynamics on these boards, because they will get backlashed by the masses who are in turn following the herd because the industry basically ended up with a trend for armatures.

This seems like a rather silly statement to me, you yourself linked to quite a few discussions on the issue. There's only so much something can be talked about and in the end, as has been said before it comes down to personal preference because there doesn't seem to be any compelling evidence to suggest otherwise.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dookiex /img/forum/go_quote.gif Thank goodness that these boards don't actually affect the industry or else Sennheiser would not be releasing in-ears using dynamic drivers. I should have expected to have gotten backlash from both you elnero and especially ClieOS (as I have searched through old posts in regards to armatures and dynamics, ClieOS is pretty vocal with his/her bias for armatures).

I have no idea why Sennheiser chose to go the dynamic route, the only thing I vaguely remember reading was something about them wanting to work with the technology they knew. Seeing as they're not even available yet I would suggest you reserve judgment on just how good they are until you're able to hear a pair for yourself.

Again, you seem to be under the delusion that I have a bias towards armatures, I don't, I like what I like regardless of what technology is used. There's always going to be examples of good design and poor design no matter what the technology. You can continue to try to put words in my mouth and make arguments where none existed but in the end it's like I said, aside from pointing out a few flaws in your posts, my only issue has been that you were presenting your opinions as absolute truth.

In conclusion, I'm sick of repeating myself, you seem intent on arguing for the sake of arguing even if it means putting words into peoples mouths or twisting the meaning to make arguments up to try to drag people in so go right ahead, I'll let this and my previous posts speak for themselves but I'm not going to feed the troll and derail this thread anymore than I already have.

 

[ClieOS]

elnero, you have done a far better job than me on organizing your thought and writing them down, I just wish my English is as good as yours. Please allow me to borrow those words as my closing as well. Thank you.

To dookiex: My replies of all IEM related comments, as well as yours, are opened for all to read. People who have the time to carefully read through them shall know who has the biased opinion here. Peace. (VV What ever you said below... haha.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by elnero /img/forum/go_quote.gif Again, you seem to be under the delusion that I have a bias towards armatures, I don't, I like what I like regardless of what technology is used. There's always going to be examples of good design and poor design no matter what the technology. You can continue to try to put words in my mouth and make arguments where none existed but in the end it's like I said, aside from pointing out a few flaws in your posts, my only issue has been that you were presenting your opinions as absolute truth. In conclusion, I'm sick of repeating myself, you seem intent on arguing for the sake of arguing even if it means putting words into peoples mouths or twisting the meaning to make arguments up to try to drag people in so go right ahead, I'll let this and my previous posts speak for themselves but I'm not going to feed the troll and derail this thread anymore than I already have.

 

[dookiex]

Yes oh great leaders of the Head-Fi community, I bow down to you with my "total lack of experience and expertise."

It's alright, I'll just leave it at this and let others read and interpret what has come before. I don't understand why you would bother with quoting and rebutting my statements so adamantly if I am so wrong on my views. Keep up the great work oh great purveyors of armature technology ;D

I especially like how you're sick of repeating yourself yet find a need to "prove" your points. I'm honestly writing this just to point these things out and find it needless for myself to repeat what I have said and hold true in earlier posts. I have held on to what I have said adamantly while you seem to go back and forth on the fact that music produced have been mixed for speakers (speakers are not the way to go, however that is subjective, but listening to things based off of what speakers should sound like is wrong, but that is a opinion, etc. etc.). Yes oh mighty one

You have all admirably proved... nothing other than the fact that you are basically stating that I am wrong and you are right but on the same side of the coin that you are not right because what you state is opinion (great way to cover both bases) but it's just the right opinion thus I am in the end... wrong. So thank you for proving... not much.

 

[Rednamalas1]

I don't know why, but this thread contains artificial flavors not described on the label.

Thread-crapping is bad

 

[tacitapproval]

Quote:

Originally Posted by dookiex /img/forum/go_quote.gif You have all admirably proved... nothing other than the fact that you are basically stating that I am wrong and you are right but on the same side of the coin you are not right because what you state is opinion but it's just the right opinion thus I am in the end wrong. So thank you for proving... not much.

Pardon the ad hominem attack, but after reading this (what does this say about me?), I have come to the conclusion that you are an idiot. Dookie, indeed.

 

[dookiex]

It certainly does Rednamalas1, it certainly does. It has been fun though and should provide some members a colourful read