[ljcii]

I think it boils down to music preference eventually.
Perhaps some like musicality or perhaps some prefer the detail-centric sound of the armatures.

 

[dookiex]

Amen

 

[elnero]

Quote:

Originally Posted by dookiex /img/forum/go_quote.gif I definitely excluded the Shure e530s from my argument as they do come very close to the sound of a pair of full sized phones.

So what other high-end universal IEM's have you heard?

Quote:

Originally Posted by dookiex /img/forum/go_quote.gif Elnero, I pose this question to you, I've been going to jazz clubs and rock shows for 20 years. How does ANY of that live music sound ANYTHING remotely like a pair of SA6?

I'm almost 38, I've played cello, bass (both stand up and electric), piano and sang in orchestras, bands and choirs for a good portion of my life and I can safely say the SA6 satisfy me enormously when I'm listening to them. Are they perfect? Nope, but they do a lot of things right. If you don't like them that's your prerogative, I'm not going to argue with you over that because in the end it's meaningless, there's just too many variables to consider.

A little story, quite a while back there was a young violinist that came round here and he swore the HD600's were the closest he'd ever come to hearing instruments reproduced faithfully, personally I couldn't disagree more. In my view neither one of us was wrong it's personal preference based on experience. Now the funny thing is, we would have had similar experiences playing classical instruments in orchestras and such yet we had very different ideas on what sounded "right" when it came to music reproduction.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dookiex /img/forum/go_quote.gif haven't heard the Image X10 yet but if the sound signature is similar to Custom-2s, then I'm not missing anything.

You might want to refrain from making assumptions about things you've never heard. In my experience the Image X10's can sound rather pedestrian with most tips but with the bi-flanges there's a certain magic that happens with them that's very addictive. This brings about a big issue with IEM's, how they couple with your ear has a fairly dramatic effect on the overall sound, the Image's have the most variation I've heard but every IEM's I've owned or tried has had a fairly malleable sound depending on tips. Do they sound anything like the other Klipsch models? I have no idea and wouldn't want to speculate because I've never heard the others and the X10's design is quite different from the custom series.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dookiex /img/forum/go_quote.gif Basing your assumption that just because human hearing is not measurable for under 20hz and over 20khz it does not mean that they do not impact the sound. The extended range in both the low end and the high end indeed does have impact on the overall body of the sound.

I won't deny that there has been some psycho acoustic research that suggests that frequencies outside our range of hearing may have some effect on our perception of music the fact of the matter is it really doesn't play into your argument. Like I said, in order to reproduce anything that could be perceived through feel below the limits of our hearing you'd need to be moving a serious amount of air. Plus, again repeating myself here, there are VERY few instruments that reproduce fundamentals down to that range. I know there's a few but the only one I can think of off the top of my head is a pipe organ.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dookiex /img/forum/go_quote.gif Another question for elnero, what full sized phones do you actually have? I'm basing my comparisons to my Ultrasones Pro 650s and ProLine 2500s. I also still have a pair of HD595s, owned HD600s, and have a pair of V6s. Guess why I kept all of these and why these are highly rated, BECAUSE THEY HAVE THE FEEL OF LISTENING TO SPEAKERS along with the added bonus of having very good clarity. Because honestly, if you do much of your listening with full sized phones, it's a night and day difference when you compare the in-ears with full sized. From testing the Shure e530s they come remarkably close to full sized but they are RETAIL AT OVER FOUR HUNDRED DOLLARS. The next step are the RE1s and the EX700s but the EX700s wins due to the fact that they are amazingly easy to drive.

All you have to do is look in my profile to see what I've owned but I'll list them here for you. Full-sized headphones I've owned are Sennheiser HD280's, HD580's, HD600's, Audio Technica W100's, W1000's and Grado RS-1's. Others that I've heard are Sennheiser HD650's, Grado SR60's, GS1000's, PS-1's, Beyerdynamic DT880's, AKG K501's, K701's among others. Even though I don't own any full-sized headphones of note at the moment I have access to a good portion of these at any time.

My last full-sized headphone I owned was the Grado RS-1's. While I love those headphones I sold them in part because they weren't getting much use after I got a pair of Shure E500's, even at home when I had the choice I ended up reaching for the Shure's most of the time. That they retail for over $400 is moot as they're available much cheaper, in fact the Grado RS-1's retail for $700 and are rarely available new for much cheaper so in my opinion the Shure's are a bargain.

Personally I don't want my headphones to sound like speakers, I prefer the presentation of headphones to that of speakers. The two are obviously vastly different so if you're expecting one to be like the other you're setting yourself up for disappointment.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dookiex /img/forum/go_quote.gif Lastly, I pose this question, like bloody hell recorded music is going to sound like live music. But they do have their own sound. All this talk about listening to your music the way it's supposed to sound, isn't that all for naught if you are not hearing the music the way it was recorded? You're stating that I'm on a high horse when I'm restating what MANY people actually come on this forum, read all this hogwash, and then scratch their heads when they listen to a pair of UE or SA6 that they just bought due to recommendations. Scratching their heads going "Hmmmm, these sound kind of flat and boring, so THIS is what this CD is supposed to sound like?" Let's be honest with ourselves, we get lost on a lot of hogwash and lose sight of musicality and instead run with the rest of the herd and proclaim the detail-centric sounds of armatures.

Yes, you're on high horse because you are proclaiming what's right and what's wrong and that we should all bow down to you're knowledge, albeit seemingly rather limited knowledge, when really it comes down to personal preference.

These same arguments can be made for speakers, planar vs. dynamic, ribbon vs. tweeter. I've heard a few Wilson speakers in my time, including Watt Puppies and Grand Slamms and you know what? On a technical level they can be impressive but to me they sound boring and unmusical. Does that mean they're not worth the price of admission? does that mean no one else should like them? No, it's a personal preference, we all hear things differently and we all perceive what we hear differently.

The fact of the matter is, this all come down to personal experience and preference because unless you were actually in the studio with the engineer at the time of the recording there's really no way to know how a recording is supposed to sound. Every aspect of the audio chain is going to color the sound in form or another, it's up to us to choose the shade we prefer.

 

[dookiex]

don't you find it funny how I've states what in my experience sounded optimal yet you ultimately try to debunk my views and then stating in the end that it ultimately falls on preference? Apparently your preference is the "right" preference? How ironic. I'm not going to argue any further as it would be moot because it really is ultimately folks jumping on the bandwagon. Much like how the Beats were trashed based on the brand an artist association. High horse I certainly am not but stating the obvious like many others on these boards wish to state, but they do not because they feel inferior after reading a lot of hogwash on these boards, that I am. Honestly, you can't name a single album that's been produced commercially because the fact of the matter is, they are mixed for speakers. They are mixed for speakers first and then auditioned on lower end speakers as well as headphones later to make sure that the mix sounds good. You being a celloist does not make you the authority on what proper music sounds like. Having witnesses live rehearsals, headphones are used for monitoring purposes, you would be nuts to try to seriously mix with them if you already have a excellent set of studio speakers.

Also, to answer your first question, on the high end side of in-ears I have heard the UM2s, Shure 210, 310, e530 (obviously), Atrios, SA6 (rubbish, very flat and the bass and treble tubes truly do not make enough impact other than as marketing gimmicks), Custom 3s (even Klipsch says that these are of better SQ than the Images, even then, the Custom 3s are way too warm which veils the high end, not a very good balance, but great for jazz, I also own the Custom 2s), ER-4S (great for monitors, but really not what music is supposed to sound like, this is one of the biggest reasons that Shure became so popular, because of their warmth while still retaining the details, but this has only really been successfully achieved with the Shure 500/e530s), UE Triple.fi 5EB (way too bass heavy which veils the highs even more than the Klipsch, boomy bass as well). Look Mr. Celloist headphone supremus. I don't feel that my comments are the be all and end all but right now, this whole argument is still in a attempt to basically say that I'm wrong and you're right and armatures sound better than dynamics. Give people blind A/B tests, anything other than e530s, maybe the Custom 3s (but the Shures kill them in the details department while still retaining the warmth), RE1s, or EX700s end up sounding a bit flat. Armatures are made differently and moving air is a BIG part of how sound reaches our ears. Armatures many of times try to EMULATE that sound but they usually end up sounding quite a bit off. Also, I really am curious to know what albums have been mixed with headphones, seriously. I am very very very curious because having visited rehearsals and tapings, I have not ONCE seen headphones used outside of their primary monitoring function. Telling me to read that article on mixing with headphones, which I did read, was a bit bogus as it was mostly theory and no concrete solid fact in that article.

Also, please don't refer back to the issue being the other components of the audio chain, ultimately most of the audio sources today are well and very capable of producing excellent SQ. The problem usually comes down to what you put on your head or in your ear as well as the quality of the files.

 

[elnero]

If you're posts had been made on the premise of personal preference then we wouldn't be having this discussion, the difference here is you stated your "views" as absolute truth which they clearly are not. I think you've clearly missed the point.

 

[dookiex]

and so did yours and CieOS. But still, very curious. What recordings have been made via headphones? Fact of the matter is a lot of our preferences in musicality has been shaped by hype being read on these forums and not nearly enough of actually using equipment. This is some what proven by ClieOS's belief that music is being mixed with headphones and then pointing out that guide which did not hold water to what is actually being used in recording studios.

 

[elnero]

You really do seem focused on that mixing argument. I personally could care less what was used to mix albums and it really has nothing to do with conversation we've been having regarding your statements to the supposed inferiority of armatures. You're jumping around like a jack rabbit, a valiant attempt to deflect I guess.

Again, you've apparently missed the point. Here, let me spell it out for you, other than to point out a few flaws in your logic, the whole premise of what I've been posting here is based on the idea that there isn't an ideal, it's personal preference. It's you who have been dealing in absolutes, that armatures are inferior to dynamics, although you then go on to exclude the Shure E530's and now maybe the Custom 3's as well so I don't really see how you're argument holds much water.

I'm not saying you're wrong, it's your prerogative to believe whatever you want but you need to realize that it's just that, personal belief and just because it's your belief it does not make it an absolute truth.

 

[dookiex]

I don't exclude the Custom-3s. If you read my earlier statement, I've kept my Custom-2s (I don't own the Custom-3s but have borrowed them for extended audition) due to their warmth and that they are quite good with jazz. I do tend to jump around but that is the way I talk. I try hard to be cohesive though. My fault if I feel like I jump around topics.

Now, I truly do emphasize mixing because in real world listening, the mix and how it is mixed dictates what the music is supposed to sound like. What do you think full sized headphones have been trying to do all these years? They have been trying to faithfully reproduce what is already there via speakers. What do you think is happening with in-ears? Same thing, they are trying to reproduce the full size headphone sound via a smaller form factor. With the in-ears trying to reproduce full size phones which in turn are trying to reproduce sound coming from speakers, how in the bloody hell does it justify the fact that armatures sound so far away from how even full size phones are supposed to sound? You brought up the point yourself, the chains in your setup all plays a role, ultimately your source music dictates everything that follows. If you've read my earlier posts, what I have tried to point out is that armatures at this point do not reproduce the sound of full sized phones as closely as dynamics do. I'm not quite sure what future armature implementations would yield but to this date, they are just quite frankly not there yet thus they are at this point inferior to dynamics. Even the Shure e530s makes a bigger compromise more than dynamics do and they certainly are at top of the heap when it comes to the amount of $$$ needed up front for a pair.

Your arguments are not the absolute truth as well as mines. Your comments trying to discredit mines however ironically makes you contradict your entire view of "I'm not saying that I'm right and you're wrong or vice versa." When you try to say that somebody else is trying to claim absolute truth while you are neutral and then go ahead to try to explain that what you are saying is the absolute truth (because honestly, there is bias in your comments thus far) is ridiculous.

Frankly, you feeling that the Images sound excellent and then trying to place the Shure e530s in the same class is total hogwash as the difference is night and day. Trying to throw the SA6s into the mix is even more ridiculous as the SA6s are quite frankly very gimmicky and a similar sound could be had for much less (thus the reason I sold them). IF my suspicion that the Images have a similar sound signature to the Customs (and I feel that my suspicion might be very very true since even Klipsch themselves says that the SQ on the Custom 3s are better than the Image). Can someone on these boards that have heard both the Custom-3s AND the Image confirm this? If my suspicion are confirmed to be drastically wrong, then I indeed will try to demo a pair of Images.

 

[dookiex]

With that, I call truce to all as we are really straying far far far away from the topic

Partly my fault.

 

[elnero]

Quote:

Originally Posted by dookiex /img/forum/go_quote.gif If you've read my earlier posts, what I have tried to point out is that armatures at this point do not reproduce the sound of full sized phones as closely as dynamics do. I'm not quite sure what future armature implementations would yield but to this date, they are just quite frankly not there yet thus they are at this point inferior to dynamics.

This is what I'm saying, you present this as if it's an absolute fact, no argument necessary, yet it's not an absolute fact, it's your belief, you're quite welcome to that belief but it should be presented as such. Based on my experience and preferences I believe otherwise, I've stated as much in this thread, the difference is I don't think anywhere in my posts have I presented my belief that armatures are not inferior as being absolute truth.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dookiex /img/forum/go_quote.gif Frankly, you feeling that the Images sound excellent and then trying to place the Shure e530s in the same class is total hogwash as the difference is night and day.

Who's talking hogwash here? I've owned both, I've heard both side by side, you on the other hand haven't even heard the Images so you have no basis to say anything in regards to how they sound in comparison to the E530's.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dookiex /img/forum/go_quote.gif Trying to throw the SA6s into the mix is even more ridiculous as the SA6s are quite frankly very gimmicky and a similar sound could be had for much less (thus the reason I sold them).

These same types arguments have been made in the full-sized headphones forums for years. You get some know it all declaring Grado or Sennheiser sucks, there's no comparison, yadda, yadda, yadda. The reality is neither sucks and neither is the be all or end all. They both give a different perspective on the music, which one prefers will be a personal preference. I personally prefer Grado but that doesn't mean I don't appreciate what the Sennheisers bring to the table.

The same thing can be said here of your declaration that the SA6's are inferior to the E530s. Again, although you've stated it as such, it's not an absolute truth, only your personal opinion. I feel differently. When I bought the SA6's I had E530's, ultimately I sold the E530's not solely because I felt the SA6's were superior sonically but because I felt they played in about the same league, the SA6's gave up some things the E530's did well but the SA6's also did some other things better than the E530's. The choice came down more to flexibility, versatility and comfort which the SA6's brought more of to the table. That you don't hold the same appreciation for the SA6's as I do matters not, I could care less what you think of them.

 

[ClieOS]

Quote:

Originally Posted by dookiex /img/forum/go_quote.gif ... This is some what proven by ClieOS's belief that music is being mixed with headphones and then pointing out that guide which did not hold water to what is actually being used in recording studios.

Album that is mixed mainly for headphone listener:
[Headphone test] by canartic
[Headphone People] by Eotribe

Album that is recorded in binaural and only for headphone listener:
[HEADPHONES REQUIRED] by Studio Voodoo Binaural
[Waves - The Sound of Anna Maria Island] by Rolf Bertram (also come with normal recording for speaker playback)

I am sure these^ are just the starter and you can find hundreds, if not thousands of recording that are either aiming for headphone user, or mixed, mastered and produced sorely for headphone user (a.k.a. binaural recording, especially in some classical music production. In fact, you can find >15 binaural album in the link <<), so please don't be ignorance and assume I don't know what I am talking about.

Quote:

Originally Posted by elnero /img/forum/go_quote.gif I'm not saying you're wrong, it's your prerogative to believe whatever you want but you need to realize that it's just that, personal belief and just because it's your belief it does not make it an absolute truth.

Bravo! Couldn't say it better myself.

To dookiex: I have back up my opinions and statements with science, reasoning, and examples now, what say you?

 

[dookiex]

So, are you stating that we should all only listen to binaural recordings then? I believe that binaural recordings are a bit of a niche market. I don't believe that binaural recordings are a basis for anything now is it? Are you trying to imply that these recordings will be the norm? If so then definitely headphones are the way to go but unfortunately studio albums are far from going binaural as a standard. Again, your basis for your claim that headphones are a viable means for mixing is flawed, especially considering that what you pointed out have been all indie labels. Heck, I do some audio editing and I use headphones, would I ever do that with a studio mix? Hell no if there are decent studio speakers available. I've had enough of this thread as ultimately it's another thread regurgitating what people have read from other threads (aside from the celloist, but still, he must have some very sensitive ears if he prefers the very flat sound of the SA6s to the full bodied sound of the e530s).

 

[ClieOS]

Quote:

Originally Posted by dookiex /img/forum/go_quote.gif So, are you stating that we should all only listen to binaural recordings then? I believe that binaural recordings are a bit of a niche market. I don't believe that binaural recordings are a basis for anything now is it? Are you trying to imply that these recordings will be the norm? If so then definitely headphones are the way to go but unfortunately studio albums are far from going binaural as a standard.

If you haven't notice yet, I am replying to your comment on post #36, as you said:

Quote:

Originally Posted by dookiex /img/forum/go_quote.gif ..What recordings have been made via headphones? ...This is some what proven by ClieOS's belief that music is being mixed with headphones and then pointing out that guide which did not hold water to what is actually being used in recording studios.

Why must you exaggerate my rely and put your assumption and implication on my answer? HOW STRANGE! If you can't take my answer as it is, it certainly is NOT my fault!

REMEMBER: It is you who claim that there isn't any recording that is mixed or mastered by/for headphone, and it is you who challenge me to provide you with proof. Yet when I come up with those records, all you did is evading my answer with more assumptions and implications..

On extra notion: Who in h*ll cares about what the norm or niche is ? Your claim is NO ONE EVER USE HEADPHONE FOR MIXING / MASTERING!!! Go back and read your own words:

Quote:

Originally Posted by dookiex /img/forum/go_quote.gif ...NOBODY in the recording industry uses headphones to MIX. The FINAL MIX is always done via STUDIO MONITORS a.k.a. stereo speakers. Name one album that has ever came out that is mixed using headphones...

Mate, you got nothing on me.
Quote:

Originally Posted by dookiex /img/forum/go_quote.gif Again, your basis for your claim that headphones are a viable means for mixing is flawed, especially considering that what you pointed out have been all indie labels. Heck, I do some audio editing and I use headphones, would I ever do that with a studio mix? Hell no if there are decent studio speakers available.

I don't care what you do in your own studio mix, and I certainly don't care whether headphones is, in your opinion, a viable means for mixing or not. All I know is there are people doing it, and you can't deny that. I have pointed out that you are wrong on some of your assumptions (that you are so sure of) about recording and headphone usage in the field, and I have given my reasoning and examples to support my comments, that's it.

*Did you read the wiki link on binaural recording which has classical recording listing in it (as I pointed out on the last post)? Did you know Pearl Jam actually released an album in 2000 called Binaural with several of the songs recorded in binaural, or RadioHead used some binaural recording technique in their latest album in Rainbows? Well, guess not...

Quote:

Originally Posted by dookiex /img/forum/go_quote.gif I've had enough of this thread as ultimately it's another thread regurgitating what people have read from other threads ..

likewise, mate. likewise.

 

[dookiex]

So you throw standards out the window yet are voicing your belief that armatures are superior based on a niche standard? How ironic.

 

[Jabba]

Chill down boys, lets enjoy the music
It doesn´t matter if the recording are made in binaural or not.
I can´t drag around on my home-fi and speakers, or play loud in late evenings.
Like my Grado´s, but I have to play loud! to hear any details or bass while traveling and I´ll annoy my fellow travelers in the process.
Closed cans are an option, but with wet hear in the morning I´ll look silly all day after wearing them.
And my Sony IEM´s isn´t that good, now I´m waiting for the triple.fi VI to arrive

To be honest I´m much more worried about the loudness wars.