[robm321]

Quote:

Originally Posted by linuxworks /img/forum/go_quote.gif if you want to be taken seriously, you do have to prove or support this silly assertion of yours. else, its just some Internet Guy(tm) ranting about stuff that makes no sense at all. you may think you do, but that's not the same as actually having improvement in the gear due to this snake-oil approach of yours. if this phenomenon is real, there should be more than 'my ears say so'. so, is there more than that? some of us need a lot more than personal anecdotes that are unverifyable. sorry if bringing logic to the discussion bothers you

You posted something logical? Where?

 

[tosehee]

With limited testing I've done so far, software and transport used (SPDIF) does make a difference ON my setup which is listed on my profile/signature.

You can take it however you want, but I don't think bit perfect output alone makes up the sound as is. You can read up on the Amarra discussion for one. There are non-believers and there are believers. I was nonbelievers for awhile until i got it to work somehow on my mac pro, and after doing 4 hours of AB testing, I believe the hype.

Now, they say it outputs the bit perfect, just like iTunes. But, if bit perfect is bit perfect, how can I hear the difference? The explanation to that is either..

1. Eith amarra or itune is not outputing bitperfect or one of them are lying.
2. The jitter or whatever Amarra is doing makes the sound better, regardless how subtle that is.

The point is not about the software, but the implication that it brings to the table, which is that the actual transport and software used makes up the difference that end users perceive.

On that note, I also did the 2+ hours AB testing using different machine (PC vs. Mac Pro) using optical and coaxial, and I also hear a slight difference, albeit nearly negligible. IMO, PC using Foobar with Wasapi -> Mac Pro using iTunes. But then, that's my opinion so far. I have been a Mac advocate when it comes to music playing, but after a bit of testing on my own, it has changed my opinion.

 

[markw51]

Does everyone know that a DAC also has an analog section?

Perhaps many of you here are too young to remember when CD players first came out. They were 'perfect sound forever' and could not be improved on, according to engineers and other bean counters.

Well we all found out that wasn't true, but anyone who argued against them they considered stupid.

Go have a conversation some day with an ENT doctor. They will tell you that human hearing is complex beyond our current knowlege and that measurments can't explain everything we hear.

 

[vcoheda]

i have yet to hear a cpu-based setup that sounded as good as the better cdp- or vinyl-oriented systems.

 

[markw51]

Quote:

Originally Posted by vcoheda /img/forum/go_quote.gif i have yet to hear a cpu-based setup that sounded as good as the better cdp- or vinyl-oriented systems.

Yes I'm sure that's true. But scientifically, it should not be true - a digital system will 'measure' far better and should sound far superior, but it doesn't.

 

[MaZa]

Quote:

Originally Posted by markw51 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Does everyone know that a DAC also has an analog section?

And your point is? Of course it has analog section. Thats the job of DAC, convert digital signal (which is just information, not sound) to analog which can be amplified louder and listened, things which cannot be done with digital information. But the converted signal is again suspectible to all kinds of signal shaping be it intentional or caused by unwanted electric noise. Music what you can actually hear coming from your computer rig is analog signal.

 

[markw51]

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaZa /img/forum/go_quote.gif And your point is? Of course it has analog section. Thats the job of DAC, convert digital signal (which is just information, not sound) to analog which can be amplified louder and listened, things which cannot be done with digital information. But the converted signal is again suspectible to all kinds of signal shaping be it intentional or caused by unwanted electric noise. Music what you can actually hear coming from your computer rig is analog signal.

I'm talking about an external DAC.

 

[DoYouRight]

the Musiland sounds great but there is a new M2Tech device talked about here:
http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f46/us...75/index2.html

It will have Linux and Mac drivers and has quartzx2 oscillators to reduce jitter. Plus has no usb cord so it cuts out one possible degrader in the signal path!

24/192! and bypasses windows/mac audio mixing completely to go from HD thru foobar to DAC.

 

[linuxworks]

Quote:

Originally Posted by markw51 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Does everyone know that a DAC also has an analog section?

so? and how does vibration this d/a conversion?

or, are you going to try to use the 'microphonics' argument in line-level cables? at that point, all cables are 'in the sound room' and so what are you going to DO about this?

do pro studios 'isolate' cables like so many anal audiophiles think they need?

Quote:

Go have a conversation some day with an ENT doctor. They will tell you that human hearing is complex beyond our current knowlege and that measurments can't explain everything we hear.

that has nothing to do with the subject at hand. this is not, at all, an 'ear perception' problem but one of 'where IS the vibration going to change sound inside a dac' problem.

so, which components are being 'shaken' and how is going to change the sound?

lets start with SOME proposed theory. you believers must have some theory to support this assertion of yours, right?

I'll start off: the only item I can think of (at extreme cases) is the local oscillator crystal (if there is one; some don't have local timebases that are crystal based). I have seen some 'strange' dacs try to rubber isolate the crystal subsystem. I laughed, a lot, when I saw that. its not a recognized concept or you'd see more of that going on (its EASY to do and so why don't others do this? answer: it does not help anything and only adds cost).

vibrations in the audio freq are orders of magnitude lower than crystal timebases. so even if your subwoofer is moving things around too much, the crystal 'counted' hundreds or thousands of its own local 'vibrations' during that one subwoofer cycle.

when you talk about mechanically connected things (laser tracking of a cd, perhaps; tonearms and stylii, etc) then I'll buy into the 'vibration matters' camp.

for digital, there's not a shred of explanation (that floats) that could explain what you guys *think* you hear 'due' to vibration in the dac.

 

[tosehee]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DoYouRight /img/forum/go_quote.gif the Musiland sounds great but there is a new M2Tech device talked about here: http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f46/us...75/index2.html It will have Linux and Mac drivers and has quartzx2 oscillators to reduce jitter. Plus has no usb cord so it cuts out one possible degrader in the signal path! 24/192! and bypasses windows/mac audio mixing completely to go from HD thru foobar to DAC.

I believe when I see the drivers for linux and Mac. It's been said for Musiland, but I didn't see any progress on that front. Maybe this device/company is more active on that development.

This device looks like a solid implementation for those who believes in the SPDIF transports DO matter.

 

[Sherwood]

For what it's worth, Tosehee, "Bit-Perfect" is a term not widely understood.

All that "Bit Perfect" implies is that the digital signal generated by a piece of software is passed in its entirety, without modifications, through the digital output of that system. Amarra modifies the signal before it is outputted.

Both iTunes and Amarra can output bit perfect digital, but that does not necessarily imply that it's the same. Amarra processes the signal further, and outputs that processed signal "bit perfect".

 

[grawk]

I have heard lots of computer setups that sound better than lots of cd based and turntable based setups. In fact, there are a couple of respected members (jp11801 and tyrion) have switched from analog phonostages to using DSP based RIAA. Given that they're using very high end turntables, and had multi-thousand dollar analog phonostages, I think that's fairly telling.

 

[MaZa]

Quote:

Originally Posted by markw51 /img/forum/go_quote.gif I'm talking about an external DAC.

I still dont understand the point. There is no difference between internal and external DAC other than one is inside something and other is outside something.

Internal DAC, often meaning the final part of the soundcards output, is in very hazardous enviroment. There is a lot of electric noise inside the computer case. Thats why external DACs are used, the digital signal gets taken outside of the noisy case and analog conversion can be done there instead. Added bonus is that external DAC can be made better because there is no size limit and dedicated PSU's can be used.

 

[tosehee]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sherwood /img/forum/go_quote.gif For what it's worth, Tosehee, "Bit-Perfect" is a term not widely understood. All that "Bit Perfect" implies is that the digital signal generated by a piece of software is passed in its entirety, without modifications, through the digital output of that system. Amarra modifies the signal before it is outputted. Both iTunes and Amarra can output bit perfect digital, but that does not necessarily imply that it's the same. Amarra processes the signal further, and outputs that processed signal "bit perfect".

I thought the bit perfect includes no mixing + no processing of the signal. Meaning..

If the music has ABCDEF0123456789 (in hex for easy comparison), then it should output ABCDEF0123456789 through the output device.

If Amarra modifies the signal and returns something other than above data, is that still consider bit perfect? I notice that it's not mixed by the mac's Core Audio and such, but it's basically been mixed by amarra itself.

 

[grawk]

Bit perfect means the bits that are on the media come out of the digital out. Nothing else. Amarra sends exactly the same bits from the cd to the dac that anything else does. Any change in the sound isn't a change in the audio data.