[ubs28]

@x RELIC x I did say in some posts "If it's good enough for you, then that's what matters"

 
I looked at the measurements and even a cheap $300 Sennheiser HD600 had better treble extension than $1000 balanced armature IEM's (I haven't seen measurement of the JH Layla or Angie, so they might be different beasts). 
 
So upgrading an IEM to an other IEM for more treble extension to me, is like upgrading a laptop to run better games (it's limited by heat so the performance still won't be good).
 
But let's agree to disagree. 

 

[diamondears]

Neutral or natural treble extension (and overall frequency curve) would show at an FR graph as downward tilting, not flat. So, Shure 846's FR curve is actually the correct one (and that of Shure SE215). Reason is that lower frequencies are omni-directional, higher frequencies are uni-directional, as pointed out by Paul S. Barton.

If anyone hears this kind of curve as lacking treble extension, dark, warm or "lacking treble details", its your eardrums; they've become insensitive to treble. And its scientifically proven that our eardrums become less sensitive to treble as years go by.

So the disagreements actually are due to different age of our ears, and, even of same age, different degree of insensitivity to treble. This is why kids generally prefer bass cans. Its actually the true neutral. Their eardrums are new.

So the current FR graphs are actually misleading, they should be compensated by the Harman-Olive curve (right-downward tilting).

 

[SomeGuyDude]

  @x RELIC x I did say in some posts "If it's good enough for you, then that's what matters"

 
I looked at the measurements and even a cheap $300 Sennheiser HD600 had better treble extension than $1000 balanced armature IEM's (I haven't seen measurement of the JH Layla or Angie, so they might be different beasts). 
 
So upgrading an IEM to an other IEM for more treble extension to me, is like upgrading a laptop to run better games (it's limited by heat so the performance still won't be good).
 
But let's agree to disagree. 

 
"Better" is a bad term to use with graphs, bruh. I own the HD600 and the SE846 and okay, congratulations, you have more "extension" in the treble but the overall sound isn't even a contest. All that means is it is capable of making frequencies at that area, it says nothing about how it sounds or how tonally balanced everything is.
 
Here you are, the $10 Skullcandy Smokin' Buds have more "extension" than the $1000 se846. 
 

 
Actually let's have some more fun. Still with the Skullcandy...
 

My goodness, those Skullcandy headphones must be on par with the HD650s!!
 
See the problem?

 

[diamondears]

I have the Shure SE215 and I'm amazed at hiw accurate it is compared to live sound (like a trio playing right in front of you) and speakers in a room.

 

[johnwamp55]

He prefers the new toy, lets see how that goes in 6 months.

 

[diamondears]

"Better" is a bad term to use with graphs, bruh. I own the HD600 and the SE846 and okay, congratulations, you have more "extension" in the treble but the overall sound isn't even a contest. All that means is it is capable of making frequencies at that area, it says nothing about how it sounds or how tonally balanced everything is.

Here you are, the $10 Skullcandy Smokin' Buds have more "extension" than the $1000 se846. 




Actually let's have some more fun. Still with the Skullcandy...



My goodness, those Skullcandy headphones must be on par with the HD650s!!

See the problem?

That is actually too much treble. If you're not hearing this, your ears are slightly deaf. This can be confirmed easily in hearing tests if you see a hearing doctor or ENT.

 

[SomeGuyDude]

That is actually too much treble. If you're not hearing this, your ears are slightly deaf. This can be confirmed easily in hearing tests if you see a hearing doctor or ENT.

 
Not sure you followed my point. Going by freq charts is misleading because something like the HD650 and the Skullcandy charts nearly identical. Would ANYONE say those two sound the same?

 

[olddude]

He prefers the new toy, lets see how that goes in 6 months.

True.  But the 846, when I first got it, was clearly a bit deficit (for me) in treble.  When I was thinking of getting it, Loquah suggested it might not suit me.  I tried it anyway, and it was close.  With modded filters and a balanced cable it was... almost where I wanted it.  
 
The UERM is clearly spot on for treble from the git go.  Everything I was having to reach for in the trebles with the 846 is there with the UERM without my concentrating to hear it.
 
Do I have some slight hearing loss?  Sure- I came of age in the mid-60's in San Francisco.  Lots of loud music.  I had my hearing tested recently and there is some roll-off in the trebles of both ears, though a bit more in the right ear.  But I can clearly hear trebles in my car stereo and I can clearly hear trebles with my Fidue A83 and my Altone200.  So loss or not, the 846, for me (always for me) had just a little less treble than I would like.  Just as some bass-heads find certain iems or cans too bass light, I find the 846 a bit treble light.  
 
Big deal.  Or at least it seems to have roiled up into one.  

 

[diamondears]

Not sure you followed my point. Going by freq charts is misleading because something like the HD650 and the Skullcandy charts nearly identical. Would ANYONE say those two sound the same?

Agree with you. Its more meant for ubs28, or anyone finding the SE846 lacking treble.

I find FR graphs to be accurate, always. The difference would only be in the sound signature (like one's treble sounds smooth, the other's sounds rough, etc.). But the frequencies are accurate.

 

[johnwamp55]

Olddude, UERM purpose was balsnce neutral for most stlyes of music. The 846 has the Shure sound. When the Shure 530 came out no one had customs and no one complained sbout lacking treble or bass. That was the top IEM. Years later tobs of choices snd underage kids wearing custom IEMS. Now many want more more better different new etc. The UERM us great but cant do everything right and the 846 is great but it cant do evrrything but Shure did try it gave the buyers a way to modify the sound for ones likeing.

 

[olddude]

Have I said anywhere that the 846 is a "bad" iem?  No.  All I've said is it did not suit my purposes no matter how I modded or removed the filters.  Why is this such a problem for anyone to deal with?  I think it's a wonderful iem, and I've said so over and over.  It's not personal, it's not meant to upset people, it's not meant to start flame wars or science discussions.
 
I bought something and it just didn't work out for me.  I'm replacing it with something else that seems to suit my needs better.  
 
Had I bought an A&K 120 and stated that it didn't suit my needs for a sound signature, so I was buying an N6 instead (which met my sound sig needs), would folks be upset?  
 
I'm not insulting anyone here by saying it's not, in the end, the right iem for me.  It's a simple statement based on a user's needs.  

 

[asarin]

Perhaps this has been discussed before, but I just discovered that the yellow foams lift up the treble considerably, revealing more of the high end than the the Shure silicones and a bit more than the olives.  While treble perception is perhaps positively impacted by their attenuation of bass, i do believe that the yellow foams are exposing frequencies that i didn't hear before. In fact, the difference is remarkable enough to convince me that outside of the filter used, the sleeve material (and perhaps insertion depth) impacts the sound signature on the 846s much more so than cables, DACs, etc.   

 

[olddude]

Tips have a great impact on sound.  Silicon vs. foams give a much different sound sig.  I have the Sensaphonic sleeves (silicon) on mine and that's a really nice sound sig.  

 

[james444]

Neutral or natural treble extension (and overall frequency curve) would show at an FR graph as downward tilting, not flat. So, Shure 846's FR curve is actually the correct one (and that of Shure SE215). Reason is that lower frequencies are omni-directional, higher frequencies are uni-directional, as pointed out by Paul S. Barton.

If anyone hears this kind of curve as lacking treble extension, dark, warm or "lacking treble details", its your eardrums; they've become insensitive to treble. And its scientifically proven that our eardrums become less sensitive to treble as years go by.

So the disagreements actually are due to different age of our ears, and, even of same age, different degree of insensitivity to treble. This is why kids generally prefer bass cans. Its actually the true neutral. Their eardrums are new.

So the current FR graphs are actually misleading, they should be compensated by the Harman-Olive curve (right-downward tilting).

 
X2 on downward tilting treble and age related hearing loss, but for the record the 846's response curve above 10kHz isn't anywhere close to diffuse-field or OW target.
 
Just saying...

 

  At last, frequency response data of SE846 from myself, in collaboration with SEEKO. Measured with B&K 4157 (IEC 60318-4) occluded ear simulator at the reference plane:
 

 
As you can tell, the effect of the extra woofer can be well-observed in the low frequency range. SE846's treble extension.. is, unfortunately, as good as that of SE420, if not worse.
 
 
 

 
And here's a comparison between each filters, compensated with a conventional diffuse-field reference on the left, and with Harman's reference target on the right.

 

[Duncan]

B&W P5

That is one seriously dark sounding headphone...

If the SE846 sounded like the P5 I would've returned the Shures, no questions asked...

For balance, I believe there may be two versions of the P5, and my pair I had were from early on in production, I suppose that caveat is important for more than one reason...

I did always like the bass though if the P7 is brighter / cleaner than the P5 might have to grab a listen (for a "throwaround" pair of cans, for if it is raining etc)