Shure SE846 Impressions Thread
Nov 6, 2016 at 5:31 PM Post #16,606 of 22,945
What I meant about the Mojo is that it simply doesn't pair well with the 846. I haven't had any luck plugging the extremely efficient 846 with an amp. The Mojo is great with my headphones. It overdrives the 846. The sub-bass suffers the most (for me).
 
Nov 6, 2016 at 9:40 PM Post #16,607 of 22,945
What I meant about the Mojo is that it simply doesn't pair well with the 846. I haven't had any luck plugging the extremely efficient 846 with an amp. The Mojo is great with my headphones. It overdrives the 846. The sub-bass suffers the most (for me).

I have a Mojo on the way and the comments on the past couple of pages have me worried...
 
What do you mean by "overdrive"? Noticeable distortion?
 
It sounds like I will have to use the Mojo in conjunction with my O2 amp (the SE846 pairs very will with that little amp).
 
Nov 6, 2016 at 10:12 PM Post #16,608 of 22,945
What I meant about the Mojo is that it simply doesn't pair well with the 846. I haven't had any luck plugging the extremely efficient 846 with an amp. The Mojo is great with my headphones. It overdrives the 846. The sub-bass suffers the most (for me).
I have a Mojo on the way and the comments on the past couple of pages have me worried...

What do you mean by "overdrive"? Noticeable distortion?

It sounds like I will have to use the Mojo in conjunction with my O2 amp (the SE846 pairs very will with that little amp).


Many users like the Mojo with the SE846. There's no way it will 'overdrive' the IEMs when you set the volume to a reasonable listening level. I really don't understand 'overdrive' the comment actually.
 
Nov 6, 2016 at 10:46 PM Post #16,609 of 22,945
Quote:
  I have a Mojo on the way and the comments on the past couple of pages have me worried...
 
What do you mean by "overdrive"? Noticeable distortion?
 
It sounds like I will have to use the Mojo in conjunction with my O2 amp (the SE846 pairs very will with that little amp).

 
Don't worry until you have something to worry about. When the Mojo arrives, sit back and relax while enjoying some of your favorite tunes. Then and only then can you decide if the 846 & Mojo is a good match for YOU. Everyone has a different idea of what sounds best to them. You decide for yourself. Here's a quote from this thread a couple weeks ago, so.......
 
  846+mojo=heaven....It seriously is insane how good this pairing is

 
Nov 6, 2016 at 11:24 PM Post #16,610 of 22,945
  Quote:
 
Don't worry until you have something to worry about. When the Mojo arrives, sit back and relax while enjoying some of your favorite tunes. Then and only then can you decide if the 846 & Mojo is a good match for YOU. Everyone has a different idea of what sounds best to them. You decide for yourself. Here's a quote from this thread a couple weeks ago, so.......
 

Yup!
 
Either way, the O2 hook-up would solve any issues with impedance the Mojo "may" have.
 
Nov 7, 2016 at 4:40 AM Post #16,611 of 22,945
That the output impedance climbs to ~ 2 Ohms in the higher ranges was stated in a review from www.hifinews.co.uk (in a printed/digital paper magazine, not online), along with backing up the Mojo's great measured performance that has already been proved by other magazines and sources with pro-grade measurement equipment.



Yep, those are some unloaded and loaded measurements done by me on my German site in my four-part Mojo review (I'm too lazy to structure and translate it into English but my résumé is that the Mojo is an excellent device and while it doesn't do everything perfectly and could also be a bit more "aggressive" at times, it is darn good overall, somewhat addictive and I'm mainly using it as a DAC only for most IEMs with an additional low impedance, low noise Amp for various reasons, whereas I use it to directly drive some full-sized head-phones; and finally I wrote that if I had to rate it, it would get ~ 4.5 out of 5 stars from me), however I've also uploaded them here on Head-Fi: http://www.head-fi.org/t/800208/the-rmaa-rightmark-audio-analyzer-source-and-audio-device-measurement-thread-measurements-in-post-3-tutorial-in-post-2/45#post_12803183

 
[rule]

Here are some measurements by another member months before I bought my Mojo, asking why there was some FR deviation under load: http://www.head-fi.org/t/784602/chord-mojo-the-official-thread-please-read-the-3rd-post/4320#post_12058168
 
...
 
and Rob's answer to that matter: http://www.head-fi.org/t/784602/chord-mojo-the-official-thread-please-read-the-3rd-post/4320#post_12058437
(and I definitely disagree to the quoted statement before Rob's reply that this behaviour is "definitely audible" with every in-ear, as it definitely is not, especially with those where the deviation starts above ~ 9 kHz.)
The relevant links are in the spoiler above (I linked them here because they might still be interesting/helpful for some people after all given how popular the SE846 and Mojo are). :beerchug:

Anyway, the FR deviation in the treble when connecting the SE846 to the Mojo is nothing drastic compared to what devices some people are using with the Shure that have got a higher overall output impedance and not only in the treble and skew the FR more and also more audibly because the deviation would start earlier and already in the lower mids.


Something just didn't seem right to me so I asked Rob and provided the link to the measurements for him.

This was his reply:


Rob Watts
Yesterday at 11:18 pm
......

Yes all the DAC's have a rising OP Z, its just that Mojo was more significant due to short circuit and power dissipation issues. In reality it is only an issue with 8 ohm loads, which are very rare, and even then the roll off at 10 kHz is tiny - a minor -0.3dB. Once you get to 16 ohms it is just -0.1dB.

It categorically is not the reason why Mojo sounds dark and smooth compared to Hugo, that's down to other things.

....


Rob Watts
Today at 1:08 am

Oh boy. I have no idea what he is doing, I don't get anything like the changes he is seeing.

And the flat response is completely wrong, Mojo at 20kHz is dead flat, not -2.5dB down.

I suspect the measurements are flawed by not taking into account the large latency of Mojo. This will give you faulty measurements.

Rob


and


Rob Watts
Today at 1:21 am

... it will most likely be due to the filter latency giving incorrect numbers on measurements. You can't use the normal way of doing frequency response, you have to adjust the delay settings so that the test gear acquires the right amplitude at the correct frequency, as the OP is delayed by 25 mS.

Cheers Rob
 
Nov 7, 2016 at 4:56 AM Post #16,612 of 22,945
Something just didn't seem right to me so I asked Rob and provided the link to the measurements for him.

This was his reply:

and

 
That's awesome info mate, thanks! Can't wait for tomorrow when my Mojo will arrive 
etysmile.gif
 
 
EDIT: For what it's worth, once we have our lab setup again, I'll be doing tons of measurements on the SE846 mods, Mojo, etc...
 
Nov 7, 2016 at 5:01 AM Post #16,613 of 22,945

 
That the output impedance climbs to ~ 2 Ohms in the higher ranges was stated in a review from www.hifinews.co.uk (in a printed/digital paper magazine, not online), along with backing up the Mojo's great measured performance that has already been proved by other magazines and sources with pro-grade measurement equipment.



Yep, those are some unloaded and loaded measurements done by me on my German site in my four-part Mojo review (I'm too lazy to structure and translate it into English but my résumé is that the Mojo is an excellent device and while it doesn't do everything perfectly and could also be a bit more "aggressive" at times, it is darn good overall, somewhat addictive and I'm mainly using it as a DAC only for most IEMs with an additional low impedance, low noise Amp for various reasons, whereas I use it to directly drive some full-sized head-phones; and finally I wrote that if I had to rate it, it would get ~ 4.5 out of 5 stars from me), however I've also uploaded them here on Head-Fi: http://www.head-fi.org/t/800208/the-rmaa-rightmark-audio-analyzer-source-and-audio-device-measurement-thread-measurements-in-post-3-tutorial-in-post-2/45#post_12803183

 

Here are some measurements by another member months before I bought my Mojo, asking why there was some FR deviation under load: http://www.head-fi.org/t/784602/chord-mojo-the-official-thread-please-read-the-3rd-post/4320#post_12058168
 
...
 
and Rob's answer to that matter: http://www.head-fi.org/t/784602/chord-mojo-the-official-thread-please-read-the-3rd-post/4320#post_12058437
(and I definitely disagree to the quoted statement before Rob's reply that this behaviour is "definitely audible" with every in-ear, as it definitely is not, especially with those where the deviation starts above ~ 9 kHz.)
The relevant links are in the spoiler above (I linked them here because they might still be interesting/helpful for some people after all given how popular the SE846 and Mojo are). 
beerchug.gif


Anyway, the FR deviation in the treble when connecting the SE846 to the Mojo is nothing drastic compared to what devices some people are using with the Shure that have got a higher overall output impedance and not only in the treble and skew the FR more and also more audibly because the deviation would start earlier and already in the lower mids.


Something just didn't seem right to me so I asked Rob and provided the link to the measurements for him.

This was his reply:
 
Rob Watts
Today at 1:08 am

Oh boy. I have no idea what he is doing, I don't get anything like the changes he is seeing.

And the flat response is completely wrong, Mojo at 20kHz is dead flat, not -2.5dB down.

I suspect the measurements are flawed by not taking into account the large latency of Mojo. This will give you faulty measurements.

Rob


and
 
Rob Watts
Today at 1:21 am

You can't use the normal way of doing frequency response, you have to adjust the delay settings so that the test gear acquires the right amplitude at the correct frequency, as the OP is delayed by 25 mS.

Cheers Rob

 
 
There is no 2.5 dB roll-off, that's for sure but also obvious by looking at the graphs - my interface only records flat until ~ 18 kHz, which can also be obviously seen on the graph(s) (all of my measurements will have a steep cut-off above 18 kHz, as you can also see in my RMAA thread).
 
But unloaded, the Mojo has got a minor 0.5 dB roll-off (kind of like a mild slow roll-off filter) towards 20 kHz. This has been proven on numerous occasions, and I think is also intentional. @shigzeo's measurements (http://ohm-image.net/data/audio/rmaa-chord-mojo-24-bit) show the same, and he has got a pro interface that can also measure the other parameters besides the pure FR extremely well.
And as you can see, Nathan's measurements also show (indirectly) that the Mojo does not have a flat impedance response and will therefore not measure 100% flat up to 20 kHz with low impedance in-ears that don't have a flat impedance response. By how much the treble will be altered will of course depend on the specific in-ear and the Shure is hyper-critical in this regard. Rob himself has even confirmed that: http://www.head-fi.org/t/784602/chord-mojo-the-official-thread-please-read-the-3rd-post/4320#post_12058437
 
As to my and RMAA's general testing method: the Mojo's delayed output doesn't matter at all in this regard because the recording interface and the playback interface (that feeds the RMAA test file to the Mojo) are separated (e.g. the Mojo is connected to my iBasso DX90 or any other portable source that is not my computer which gets only the audio input from the Mojo and SE846/any other IEM), and then the test signal that is played back is recorded and exported, and then analysed with RMAA. So there is no latency/sync signal/whatever error which might probably indeed happen if I used a loopback measurement which I am obviously not doing. 
wink.gif

 
 
What's to be said is that the SE846 (and a few other IEMs) are extremely picky beasts when it comes to the source output. ANd while the Mojo is good in this regard, it is not perfect for the Shure (but (sometimes a lot) better than many other players and amps).
 
Nov 7, 2016 at 5:05 AM Post #16,614 of 22,945
I'm just the messenger. Rob is aware of the SE846 with the Mojo and he doesn't see the same results. The designer of the product seems to indicate that the latency does affect the measurements and I'll go with what he says, and then again he only said it's likely the cause and has no idea why these measurements look the way they do. Also, the measurements in the link provided indeed show a steep drop to around -2.5 dB around 20kHz in the flat graph. I have no skin in the game, just passing on info.

Edit: And to be clear, I don't think Rob or anyone is debating the SE846 is picky with gear. Yes he confirmed it, but also just confirmed it's much more minor than those measurement indicate.
 
Nov 7, 2016 at 5:09 AM Post #16,615 of 22,945
Also, the measurements in the link provided indeed show a steep drop to around -2.5 dB around 20kHz in the flat graph.

 
As I said, my interface cuts the audio off above 18 kHz, that's why there appears to be a 2.5 dB drop around 20 kHz. But imo this is quite obvious to see. If you follow the line (or look at Nathan's measurements) in your mind, you will see that it is only about 0.5 dB which is normal.
 
Nov 7, 2016 at 5:11 AM Post #16,616 of 22,945
As I said, my interface cuts the audio off above 18 kHz, that's why there appears to be a 2.5 dB drop around 20 kHz. But imo this is quite obvious to see. If you follow the line (or look at Nathan's measurements) in your mind, you will see that it is only about 0.5 dB which is normal.


I know. I just was interested in Rob's take on the provided measurements and he was surprised at the variance. To him it's much more than what he has measured and he doesn't know what's going on with those graphs. That's all.

:beerchug:

Edit: Never mind about the drop @ 18kHz. He says the SE846 should only measure -0.3dB at 10kHz, not -1dB.....

This was the graph that surprised him most

 
Nov 7, 2016 at 5:26 AM Post #16,617 of 22,945
I know. I just was interested in Rob's take on the provided measurements and he was surprised at the variance. To him it's much more than what he has measured and he doesn't know what's going on with those graphs. That's all.

:beerchug:

Edit: Never mind about the drop @ 18kHz. He says the SE846 should only measure -0.3dB at 10kHz, not -1dB.....

This was the graph that surprised him most



Yeah, what's even stranger about that curve is that the SE846 impedance curve actually starts rising again in the highs. That doesn't make sense with what is shown here on the measurement. It should be a dip, not a shelf.
 
Nov 7, 2016 at 5:39 AM Post #16,618 of 22,945
Well, in the end it's our ears that prefer the sound or not. To me different measurements and measurement methods are a good guide but there's bound to be variance between measuring devices and methods. I was simply curious as to what Rob had to say, and posted his response (with permission). I know he uses the APx555 to measure his gear. It's all interesting to me but it's nothing more than that. Both results simply confirm that the Z of the Mojo's output messes with the frequency response of the SE846. Apparently some methods measure less and some measure more of the effect. The interesting curiosity is why the difference.
 
Nov 7, 2016 at 6:03 AM Post #16,619 of 22,945
I have a Mojo on the way and the comments on the past couple of pages have me worried...

What do you mean by "overdrive"? Noticeable distortion?

It sounds like I will have to use the Mojo in conjunction with my O2 amp (the SE846 pairs very will with that little amp).


Don't worry, this is nitpicky stuff. The Mojo sounded better with the 846 to me than the DX90 and maybe slightly better than the Sony ZX1. So, it's not a bad purchase. I just like it sweeter sounding with great tonality and the full range from sub-bass to highs.

And yes, if you attach a 100 watt amp to 20 watt handling speakers, you can turn the volume down to prevent it from being overdriven. But, why bother connecting it in the first place?
 
Nov 7, 2016 at 7:00 AM Post #16,620 of 22,945
Given that Apple's dongle has a Zout of 0'33 ohms, FR wise it drives better the SE846 than the Mojo.
 
May be somebody can ask Rob what is the Mojo's output impedance...
 

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