[883dave]

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilS /img/forum/go_quote.gif This thread is becoming a nice example of the problem I identified at the beginning of the thread. This thread is not intended to be a discussion about whether cables make audible differences. It is intended instead to be more of a discussion about "procedure," for lack of a better word, i.e., what guidelines or structures, if any, should be employed to address the problems identified in my initial post -- which problems have been observed by many others. Please, let's not make this yet another thread with discussions about whether cables make an audible difference. If you want to discuss that, I'd ask that you start another thread -- hopefully in the Sound Science forum. And I think it is possible to address the "procedural" issue without delving into the "audible difference" issue, which will only start fights. Thanks for your understanding.

I wonder if anyone felt the wind, when this post went right over their heads?

 

[null_pointer_us]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aimless1 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Agree or not, many people simply do not care about the science, DBT, logic nor proof. They do care about what they hear. Therefore it simply does not matter if they are right or wrong as it relates to proof, from their POV.

You're assuming they can hear differences in a digital cable. That's not possible. None of the "open-minded" people who disagree with me will actually address this claim. One would think they'd jump at the chance to expose something they claim to believe is so logically flawed, but they don't. Always the same straw man and insulting language.

Analog cables invariably alter the information as it is being transferred from one side to the other. That's a fact. The debate, between believers and skeptics, is whether those differences are actually audible. However, a digital cable does not alter the information as it passes through the cable, in a way which could cause anything other than random distortion. That is also a fact; something that's true regardless of who happens to accept it. Therefore, any claim regarding hearing SQ differences between digital cables is false and misleading, even if it wasn't intended as such.

I'm not demanding proof. I'm asking people to understand that posting information about digital cables should be done with, and not apart from, the understanding that false information may well be exposed as such. There's nothing in PhilS's suggestion which denies the possibility for this. You certainly seem to be acting as if there was.

Quote:

They simply want the ability to post unmolested by those who believe otherwise. IF someone begins a thread requesting no discussion of the science behind cables, should they do so without be challenged, harrassed and harrangued? I've noticed many skeptics think this is unacceptable for what appears to me (a cable skeptic) self righteous reasons. I believe otherwise. I believe they should have that right.

Again, I'm not advocating people be "molested," harrassed, and harrangued.

There is a saying about limited rights that I think is applicable here. "The right to swing your fist ends where the other person's nose begins." The point being, that to confer or protect one person's right, invariably entails limiting or removing someone else's right. Therefore, it's not just a matter of granting rights to be "unmolested" -- which is loaded language in itself, but will probably end up being true seeing as how both sides "molest" each other with reckless abandon -- but a question of that "solution" is worth taking away others' rights to state that there is no possibility of a difference in sound quality between digital cables.

Quote:

For them subjective opinions are valuable and meaningful. Logic, DBT and scientific facts have no bearing for them, nor should it be part of the discussion when asked not to include it.

Subjective opinions, that are categorically impossible, are not useful to anyone. They would achieve something vastly more useful to themselves, than an infinite number of posts containing subjective opinions about the SQ of digital cables, if they simply started a discussion (in the appropriate forum) about digital cables and whether they do or do not affect the sound quality. Ask questions, get answers, and draw conclusions. These endless debates about who is to be censored when are ... unproductive, to put it mildly.

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Many here seem to believe if it is wrong (as defined by them) then the opinions should not be allowed to stand unchallenged. Again, I disagree with what to me is an extreme position. To me, this is akin to the NRA (National Rifle Association) and their politics in action. My way or the highway is what I hear.

That's true of some people on both sides. However, everyone must listen to reality. If you jump off a high cliff and explode into a bloody mess on the ground at 100 kph, it doesn't matter whether you believed you'd be alright. People who disagreed with you (before the jump

) wouldn't be close-minded, either. Where beliefs (including skeptical beliefs) and reality collide, reality wins. No one was willing to even discuss the factual claim I've made. They just act like it's false, and paint me as being close-minded.

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I seem to recall the pendulum had swung towards the cable believers originally. Now it has swung to the cable skeptics. IMHO it needs to swing back to neutral ground where both sides can express their views individually, freely without hassle from the other "side". There will no doubt be many threads where both are welcome to post.

Expressing the view that digital cables have varying SQ would be fine, but what you're advocating is that view be encoded into the forum rules such that no one could point out, in any thread where the OP requests, that such claims are inherently impossible. That would degrade those threads into nothing more than a breeding ground for delusion, not a valid exchange of opinions and useful information.

 

[PhilS]

Quote:

Originally Posted by 883dave /img/forum/go_quote.gif I wonder if anyone felt the wind, when this post went right over their heads?

Probably not. It's almost funny -- in a tragic sort of way.

Frankly, I'm just about ready to give up. But then, on the other hand, I keep thinking that the more certain people talk, the more this provides evidence of the extent of the problem.

But, my gosh, some of the recent posts are especially tedious.

 

[keesue]

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilS /img/forum/go_quote.gif Probably not. It's almost funny -- in a tragic sort of way. Frankly, I'm just about ready to give up. But then, on the other hand, I keep thinking that the more certain people talk, the more this provides evidence of the extent of the problem. But, my gosh, some of the recent posts are especially tedious.

PhilS, don't give up. I found your post suggesting civil procedure in both the literal and quasi-legal senses of the word clear and I think your proffering the notion for discussion is good. The idea of civility in the procedural sense is healthy to the discussions. It is unfortunately, very hard to avoid the trap of 'I'm right/you're wrong' followed by 'you are a <insert insult here> if you...'

I have found that audio is a passion, and as such, stirs emotion in the soul which can preempt the mind. Hey, they were ready to fist-fight that day!

Good posts, here. I'm steppin' outta da the wind stream now. <end of dribble>

 

[number1sixerfan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilS /img/forum/go_quote.gif This thread is becoming a nice example of the problem I identified at the beginning of the thread. This thread is not intended to be a discussion about whether cables make audible differences. It is intended instead to be more of a discussion about "procedure," for lack of a better word, i.e., what guidelines or structures, if any, should be employed to address the problems identified in my initial post -- which problems have been observed by many others. Please, let's not make this yet another thread with discussions about whether cables make an audible difference. If you want to discuss that, I'd ask that you start another thread -- hopefully in the Sound Science forum. And I think it is possible to address the "procedural" issue without delving into the "audible difference" issue, which will only start fights. Thanks for your understanding.

Agreed, and the proof is in the pudding. Some of the same people who go around trolling the forum now, are the ones who have turned this thread sour. This should be proof enough that certain people need to be warned about their behavior.

It is impossible to have a conversation about fixing the problem without talking about the nature of the problem, but as you can see some people cannot agree and disagree with respect or hear differentiating opinions and that IS the main root of the problem.

 

[olblueyez]

Later Fellows, I am ditching my cable thread subscriptions. Good Luck.

 

[number1sixerfan]

This is exactly what happens. Someone makes a personal insult, and then the thread completely turns disrespectful. Something needs to happen. Either people need to grow up(which we should assume that not everyone will) or more strict moderation needs to happen.

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Originally Posted by olblueyez /img/forum/go_quote.gif Its my opinion that you create useless post after useless post to gain attention because you don't have much of anything to say and your desperate need for attention gets you the rejection that fuels your pathetic need for attention. I see you re-cabled your headphones, had some money that you wanted to set fire to?

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Originally Posted by BIG POPPA /img/forum/go_quote.gif olblueyez, these guys just kill me with zero proof of their own to prove their point. Why is it on the guy's on the other side of the fence? Mmbd2884 has never proven his point. Just made opinion!

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Originally Posted by Dr. Strangelove /img/forum/go_quote.gif Your methods of argument seem highly flawed, lack respect, and are quite laden with prejudice... Tell tale signs of ad hominem I would say.

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Originally Posted by upstateguy /img/forum/go_quote.gif I would like to suggest that when you can see the cable you're listening to, you most certainly hear what you hear, but under conditions where you cannot see the cable, you may actually not hear what you hear. USG

Quote:

Originally Posted by haloxt /img/forum/go_quote.gif Look at how these anti-cable people have derailed this thread. There is no way in hell I will ever do a real post in a cable thread so long as these jokers are around. Seriously, just give pro-cable people a private thread where we can cuss and vent out our frustration. Not to mention, didn't you say you noticed a difference from the audio-gd power cable, mbd2884? Or you changed your mind?

Need I quote anymore? This thread got completely derailed on page six because once one person enters with an insult, others follow and the attitude of disrespect braces the entire thread.

It is not realistic to think you can have a discussion about this issue without talking about the nature of cables themselves; because that determines the bases of argument for pro or con of PhilS's original idea.

But what you saw prior to page 6, is people agreeing or disagreeing with a common respect for each other. Once that is broken, all hell will break loose. Every single time....and it's just not fair to censor everyone because of the disrespect and immaturity of others.

*And I apologize if I quoted someone, I am simply proving a point. I am not saying that these are repeat offenders. Everyone can come to their own conclusions about that.(and fyi, the quotes are in the exact order they appear in the thread, I simply chose the problem spot)*

 

[haloxt]

See? We need a thread where pro-cable people can cuss their lungs raw or until their ulcers swell down. Now olblueyez is just sad blue eyes, the only way he'll ever come back to cable threads is if it is a private anti-anti-cable cussing thread. If I open a usergroup can I have it granted unlimited profanity/slander/pornography?

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/group.php?groupid=85

 

[null_pointer_us]

IMO p0rnography is not a viable solution to the problems here. -_-'

/humor

 

[PhilS]

IMO, though, it is not just the insults and acrimony that is the problem. It is also that you cannot discuss subjective impressions, or even ask a question about a cable, without getting the objectivist position statement over and over (and I'm not suggesting that the position does not have some merit). In other words, it is not just a matter of how people say things.

If I want to discuss what tubes to use in an amp, and people keep interrupting constantly with statements about how SS amps are better and don't color the sound, I don't care that they do so with courtesy and tact. It's still, IMO, not really on point, and amounts to thread krapping.

There can a lot of useful discussion and impressions offered about which tubes work best with which headphones or which amp. The statement that SS amps perform better and tubes just distort sound (just an example, let's not argue about that now) doesn't need to be set forth a million times by the same people over and over.

To give another example, if I want to talk about what is the best fast food, I think I should be able to do that with other people who want to discuss it, without being interrupted -- even politely -- by well meaning folks who want to keep reminding everybody that fast food is high in cholesterol, high in sodium, tending to lead to obesity, etc.

 

[skiflyer]

8 pages... I only read the first 4 (I have a train to catch). But let me chime in quickly and then read the rest when I get home. I think anyone who reads more than a post or two a day here knows the truth on this topic - there are maybe half a dozen people who cannot discuss anything related to cables. They have made up their minds, and any post they make on cables tends to come across as insulting and close minded. They have, to an individual, never changed anyone's minds and will never have their minds changed on this topic.

In my mind, it's really that simple, it's a few bad apples, it's not the debate itself. There's a lot of interesting discussion in some of those threads. To try and address it from the topic seems like a fool's errand to me, just ban those people, or at least send them a nice email telling them that they've made their viewpoint clear and they can now kindly cease posting.

 

[yotacowboy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by null_pointer_us /img/forum/go_quote.gif Why people keep completely misrepresenting what I'm claiming immediately after I've specifically explained it, for the umpteenth time, is beyond me.

"it is not what you say that is important, it is what people hear that is important"

 

[pabbi1]

Oh, it is absolutely the debate itself.

A new poster innocently asks for opinions about cables, as in what is available, and what do the options sound like to people who have, you know, actually heard them.

The self righteous demand to save them from the folly of even thinking cables might make a difference.

Thus, it always is, and will be.

So, this thread is the manifest example of the problem, and, why it cannot be solved.

Thus, I contend it is poisoned beyond repair, with this thread as the empirical evidence, that none shall ever engage without becoming inflicted. It is simply not worth the inevitable thread crap / dump / fuhmitts that ensue, to any further participate in this forum.

I do know if this ever cropped up in either the headphone OR amp forum ("protecting" newbies from the evils of opinions), it would be stomped out immediately. But, not here - because, in the end, cables really don't matter, ironically, except, I guess, to those of us who can no longer stand to post in this forum.

 

[yotacowboy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by pabbi1 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Oh, it is absolutely the debate itself. A new poster innocently asks for opinions about cables, as in what is available, and what do the options sound like to people who have, you know, actually heard them. The self righteous demand to save them from the folly of even thinking cables might make a difference. Thus, it always is, and will be. So, this thread is the manifest example of the problem, and, why it cannot be solved. Thus, I contend it is poisoned beyond repair, with this thread as the empirical evidence, that none shall ever engage without becoming inflicted. It is simply not worth the inevitable thread crap / dump / fuhmitts that ensue, to any further participate in this forum. I do know if this ever cropped up in either the headphone OR amp forum ("protecting" newbies from the evils of opinions), it would be stomped out immediately. But, not here - because, in the end, cables really don't matter, ironically, except, I guess, to those of us who can no longer stand to post in this forum.

ha!

and thanks!

 

[number1sixerfan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by pabbi1 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Oh, it is absolutely the debate itself. A new poster innocently asks for opinions about cables, as in what is available, and what do the options sound like to people who have, you know, actually heard them. The self righteous demand to save them from the folly of even thinking cables might make a difference. Thus, it always is, and will be. So, this thread is the manifest example of the problem, and, why it cannot be solved. Thus, I contend it is poisoned beyond repair, with this thread as the empirical evidence, that none shall ever engage without becoming inflicted. It is simply not worth the inevitable thread crap / dump / fuhmitts that ensue, to any further participate in this forum. I do know if this ever cropped up in either the headphone OR amp forum ("protecting" newbies from the evils of opinions), it would be stomped out immediately. But, not here - because, in the end, cables really don't matter, ironically, except, I guess, to those of us who can no longer stand to post in this forum.

What you fail to realize is that you have automatically assumed that the other side of the argument is "self-righteous"(which this thread has also proven that there are many people who are anti-cable who aren't self-righteous), thus your own preconceived notions are just as much of a problem as someone barging through a cable thread self-righteously. The defensiveness leads to arguments just as often as someone stating that they don't think there is a difference.

If people don't want to hear opposite opinions repeatedly, then maybe a discussion board is not the best place to talk about anything for these said people, as people have different opinions.

But one thing I definitely agree with you on, is that it is not going to change.
First, people have already labeled each other in their minds, so every post will lead to chaos.

Second, it is the nature of the beast and unfortunately so. If you choose to talk about something(that is by most "cable believers" own admission makes less of a difference than every other part in the signal path), the other side of the argument is bound to come up more often than headphones, which we pretty much agree can have the most drastic affect on sound.

So I agree, censorship/seperation via the science forum is the only guarantee that it doesn't happen.....or, trolls can be moderated(which would cut down on how often the arguments are brought up) and people could be more mature and adult(so that at least when the argument comes up, its tasteful) which would be far from perfect, but far from censorship. But I am starting to realize that the latter is simply asking for too much.

.................I can see why the science forum was the option chosen.