[PhilS]

It seems that every time someone posts a question about cables on this forum -- no matter what the precise question is that is being posed -- the folks who do not believe that cables make an audible difference (hereinafter, the "skeptics," for short) respond with their opinions that cables do not and cannot make an audible difference. Sometimes these responses are arguably called for the OP's inquiry. But many times, they are not.

I respect people's rights to believe what they want to believe about cables, pro and con, and to post their opinions about such matters when it is fairly called for by the initial question. But many times, the OP is asking a question that is related to cables in some way, but the fair import of the question does not call for yet another lengthy and acrimonious battle between the "believers" camp and the "skeptics" camp about the audible differences issue. And yet it is an all too-frequent occurrence that some of the anti-cable folks intrude on every cable-related thread to post their opinions about the lack of audible differences between cables, and thereby divert the thread. Many of these threads, of course, end up in the same old arguments and name calling.

I think it would be a good idea to create a sticky for all of the anti-cable arguments to be set forth in one place. This thread could put forth all of the arguments about cables being snake oil, about cables bring overpriced, how people who buy them are idiots, how the skeptics are advancing anti-cable information to help newbies and save them from wasting money, etc. Indeed, the skeptics could say whatever they want in the sticky.

Then, when the OP asks a question like: "What's a good place to buy a replacement cable for my XKY-123 headphone?" -- for example -- the skeptics can just reply once with a link to the sticky (because, in their view, there's no good place to buy such a cable because they're all a rip off). Then the people who want to address the fair import of OP's post can discuss that topic.

I know there are a few folks will not like this idea, because they want to intrude on every thread. That's how they get their jollies. But it seems to me that some sort of sticky would save a lot of space on the cable forum, result in fewer argumentative threads, reduce the number of threads that are interrupted by comments that are arguably not relevant to the OP's inquiry, enable people to more readily find threads that contain the information they are searching for (since threads will generally contain the information set forth in the thread title), increase the efficiency of the search function, and reduce the need for the moderators to moderate threads in the cable forum.

P.S. It is not my intent to have a discussion in this thread about whether cables make a difference. Please, let's not do that here. I started this merely to make a suggestion, and so would invite comments on the proposal for creating a sticky, or some other solution to the problem. Thanks if advance for your cooperation.

 

[deaconblues]

Is there a problem? Is the assertion that there's no audible difference between cables so offensive that it needs to be censored and sequestered in within a single thread? Do you have to hear a difference before being allowed to make a post about cables?

 

[PhilS]

Quote:

Originally Posted by deaconblues /img/forum/go_quote.gif Is there a problem? Is the assertion that there's no audible difference between cables so offensive that it needs to be censored and sequestered in within a single thread? Do you have to hear a difference before being allowed to make a post about cables?

You obviously did not read what I wrote (or else you just want to set up straw men). I did not say either of those things.

 

[elrod-tom]

Quote:

Originally Posted by deaconblues /img/forum/go_quote.gif Is there a problem? Is the assertion that there's no audible difference between cables so offensive that it needs to be censored and sequestered in within a single thread? Do you have to hear a difference before being allowed to make a post about cables?

Yes, I think that there IS a problem. I also think you might be missing PhilS's point - and, interestingly enough, you're also helping him make it.

One of the reasons that we opened the Sound Science forum was to let those who want to discuss whether cables do in fact make a difference sonically have a seat at the table. I would tend to agree that we are still having more of the sort of arguments that PhilS speaks of than I'd like outside of the Sound Science forum. Unfortunately, I fear that this is because a lot (though not all) of the folks who want to have that discussion are more interested in having an argument, and insist on intruding into pretty much any thread where someone suggests that cables can vary sonically. That the Sound Science forum exists makes no difference to these folks...they are specifically looking to mix it up with folks who want to have a discussion about cables and sonic differences without the nonbeliever skunk at the picnic making his all-too-predictable uninvited visit.

People who want to have a discussion about sonic differences cables can make ought to be able to have it without the intrusion of unwelcome parties looking for a fight. I'm not exactly sure that this is the best way to handle it, but I'm sympathetic to PhilS's concerns.

 

[number1sixerfan]

I think part of the problem comes from the fact that when new people ask about cables, more seasoned people like to inform them that they can get more bang for the buck by upgrading other parts of the system first(especially because newer people tend to have less hi-fi gear).

Either way, I do agree that certain things should be left to the sound science forum. But I can't admit this without pointing out that certain "cable believers" are just as eager to start an argument as "cable doubters". A sticky would be a band-aid at best, but maybe a needed one.

 

[vcoheda]

re cables, this part of the forum should be for impressions only. all other inquiries should go in the sound science section.

my 02 cents.

 

[elrod-tom]

Quote:

Originally Posted by vcoheda /img/forum/go_quote.gif re cables, this part of the forum should be for impressions only. all other inquiries should go in the sound science section. my 02 cents.

Make that $0.04...I would tend to agree.

 

[elrod-tom]

Quote:

Originally Posted by number1sixerfan /img/forum/go_quote.gif I think part of the problem comes from the fact that when new people ask about cables, more seasoned people like to inform them that they can get more bang for the buck by upgrading other parts of the system first(especially because newer people tend to have less hi-fi gear).

I think this is true even for folks who DO believe that cables make a difference. I don't run into a lot of folks who think that cabling is so important that one ought to upgrade it prior to upgrading the source, for example.

Quote:

Originally Posted by number1sixerfan /img/forum/go_quote.gif Either way, I do agree that certain things should be left to the sound science forum. But I can't admit this without pointing out that certain "cable believers" are just as eager to start an argument as "cable doubters". A sticky would be a band-aid at best, but maybe a needed one.

I don't disagree that there are plenty of folks on both sides of the argument who are spoiling for a fight. That said, I don't see nearly so many of the cable believers going into the Sound Science thread as nonbelievers going into the cable discussion threads.

 

[Kees]

I agree with the OP, but I say ban them for trolling. I'm really fed up with them.

 

[number1sixerfan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kees /img/forum/go_quote.gif I agree with the OP, but I say ban them for trolling. I'm really fed up with them.

Fed up with who? People who disagree with you?

 

[deaconblues]

Upon re-reading PhilS's post, I find that I did indeed miss the point. My mind was still stuck on another thread in which I believed there was a place for the "no difference" argument due to the OP's statements about his experiences.

I apologize for my hasty response. PhilS does make a good point about creating a go-to thread for the cable controversy. The argument does have a tendency to spill over and possibly derail some discussions. However, I also think that skeptical voices do occasionally have their place here. When someone asks about what he should listen to in order to be able to discern a difference he has been unable to hear, or when a newcomer asks which cable to put between his HD580 and low end amp, the cable skeptics shouldn't be dismissed.

 

[PhilS]

Quote:

Originally Posted by elrod-tom /img/forum/go_quote.gif That said, I don't see nearly so many of the cable believers going into the Sound Science thread as nonbelievers going into the cable discussion threads.

I've decided recently to stay out of the Sound Science forum, primarily because many of the discussions there tend to be so acrimonious, involving uglier and uglier fights between the "skeptics" and the "believers." And that's one thing that's nice about having a separate forum like that. People who want to "have it out" on whether this or that tweak or whatever makes an audible difference, have a place on Head-Fi where they can do that. And people who want to explore other "sound science" issues can do so, based on the thread topics posted there.

The problem is that, as you suggest and as I pointed out in my initial post, certain skeptics don't want to confine the discussions to that forum. This is somewhat of an exaggeration, but it's like if you have a bunch of bullies in the corner of the school yard, they get impatient when nobody comes over to pick up fight. So they come over to your side of the school yard to challenge you to a fight. (And, of course, people on both "sides" can act like bullies.)

Anyway, I agree that the cable forum should be for impressions only. The alternative I suggested (a "sticky") was less drastic than that, since it would allow the "debate" to continue in this forum in response to the appropriate thread. I made my suggestion with the idea that many would cry "censorship" to any suggestion that discussions should be confined to the Sound Science forum. But, indeed, that is the most practical solution to the problem.

And if some are concerned that newbies might buy an expensive cable as a result of "impressions" posted in the cable forum, a skeptic could refer the newbie to the Sound Science forum, or to a particular thread in that forum, and advise them to read up on whether cables make an audible difference.

 

[Kees]

Quote:

Originally Posted by deaconblues /img/forum/go_quote.gif Upon re-reading PhilS's post, I find that I did indeed miss the point. My mind was still stuck on another thread in which I believed there was a place for the "no difference" argument due to the OP's statements about his experiences. I apologize for my hasty response. PhilS does make a good point about creating a go-to thread for the cable controversy. The argument does have a tendency to spill over and possibly derail some discussions. However, I also think that skeptical voices do occasionally have their place here. When someone asks about what he should listen to in order to be able to discern a difference he has been unable to hear, or when a newcomer asks which cable to put between his HD580 and low end amp, the cable skeptics shouldn't be dismissed.

I agree, of course they should have the freedom to voice the fact that they believe there is no difference and that there can be no difference.
The problem lies in the derogative and arogantly insulting way they formulate their beliefs.

 

[number1sixerfan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kees /img/forum/go_quote.gif The problem lies in the derogative and arogantly insulting way they formulate their beliefs.

The same is true for a lot of people who are pro-cables...

 

[number1sixerfan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by elrod-tom /img/forum/go_quote.gif I think this is true even for folks who DO believe that cables make a difference. I don't run into a lot of folks who think that cabling is so important that one ought to upgrade it prior to upgrading the source, for example. I don't disagree that there are plenty of folks on both sides of the argument who are spoiling for a fight. That said, I don't see nearly so many of the cable believers going into the Sound Science thread as nonbelievers going into the cable discussion threads.

Honestly, I believe that is because a lot of people don't visit the sound science forum...

It is better to try and get people to coexist rather than trying to split them apart(just my $.02...not like it matters)...just like Phil, I doubt many "cable believers" are going to visit the sound science forum in the first place. Obviously more "cable doubters" will...