[null_pointer_us]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aimless1 /img/forum/go_quote.gif I actually happen to agree with the science on this one. BUT I don't have a problem with someone who disagrees with me or with the science.

Same here. But, regarding digital cables, it's not science; it's logic. There's no chance that a claim that's logically impossible will suddenly be made possible and debatable by future discoveries. Perpetually pretending something is possibly true, when it's been shown to be logically impossible many times, is just lying to yourself and to others.

Quote:

I learned a long time ago that disagreement can lead to better understanding. I WANT to hear the other side of things. Actually, what I really want is to be challenged by the other view.

If you really wanted to be challenged by the other view, you would at least have tried to address it, instead of ducking questions, moving to other threads, and posting veiled insults against people who try to point out the problems with the claims you're reading.

Quote:

If the OP requests no cable debates or wished to ignore 1s & 0s, that's fine by me and I'm happy to leave them be. Otherwise, it is sanctimonious thread crapping, much like the religious Crusades.

Pretending that something is subjective, when it's not, is a rather petty and dishonest way of avoiding addressing conflicting viewpoints. On a public forum, no one has the right to ignore reality and post false information that's been exposed as such. Repeatedly ignoring criticism, while claiming to be open-minded, is unethical for the same reasons. Acting as if all that's somehow magnanimous is even worse.

Quote:

Science and scientific evidence is not final, not necessarily true and time has shown that so called facts are many times blurry as best.

If you had any interest in "science and scientific evidence" on the subject of digital cables, you would've discussed it when you were presented with numerous opportunities to do so in other threads instead of just coming here and mischaracterising the people you disagreed with.

Quote:

Cable believers deserve their time in the sun, unmolested if so requested. If you have a closed mind or believe your way is the only correct answer, then of course you don't want someone to have a right to state a differing viewpoint without direct confronatation and challenge. I simply am not that insecure.

Here, again, you present veiled personal attacks and lies while pretending to be open-minded. It's called an ad hominem argument. You ignore the point you don't want to deal with; instead, you focus on posting vague insults directed at nobody in particular. Future posts along these lines will be exposed as such on the forums and reported to the moderator.

Given your self-proclaimed open-mindedness, security, and eagerness to be challenged; I look forward to the day when you will begin to directly address the point I have been trying to make, whether you do that here, via PM, or in some discussion thread specifically seeking knowledge about USB cables.

 

[yotacowboy]

This debate (subjective vs. objective) is the reason I (tho i'm guessing there's many more) have stopped visiting the cables forum (and head-fi in general). it's pointless to post most of anything here, and the majority of the threads devolve into the same regurgitated drivel. From the perspective of creating a welcoming and informative BB - this particular forum leaves much to be desired.

Only when both sides realize that they have much to learn from each other, and that "truth" and "fact" reside in neither doctrine, constructive discourse *might* be possible.

 

[null_pointer_us]

Philosophy rivals economics for sheer volume of time willingly invested in faulty premises.

Without getting too far off-topic, subjectivism vs. objectivism is an example of a debate based on a faulty premise. The question of whether everything is subjective or everything is objective is irrational. The truth is that some things are subjective while other things are objective, simply because that's the reality in which we happen to exist.

yotacowboy, I'm not sure whether you were addressing my posts, or it just happened to look that way to me, but the only thing I can offer in my defense of my long posts across multiple threads on the same subject is that people keep ignoring what I've said and rewriting my opinions in an offensive manner.

When people say something that's false, about me personally or about the discussion itself, to the point of being very misleading to others, I feel obligated to respond.

 

[nick_charles]

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheAttorney /img/forum/go_quote.gif My mini subjective review will be about 1 interconnect cable and 1 power cable. They are to arrive later this week, so I don't know how this review will end up. But I do expect to give an introduction about my previous experiences, views and prejudices - so that observers can get an idea if my results are in any way worthy of consideration. The review itself will be very short (there's only so much one can rattle on about brilliant highs and deepest lows). I'll also do a conclusion and disclaimer to make sure that no newbie rushes off and blows $2.5k on a piece of wire just because a complete stranger has given the most amazing, gushing review.

A very measured response to my post and very civil, a pleasant change these days ... sigh.

Quote:

BTW, I await with interest your cable tests and I'm glad that someone is genuinely trying to match subjective and objective results. But let me state my views/prejudices: I don't believe in A-B testing or measurements for determining subtle-but-important differences in sound quality. For me, the only reliable test is to not change my system for months, then insert the new component, then just listen to music. There, I've just said some things that are red rags to a troll. These things could be interesting to debate - but in the sound science forum please!

We do not have the same world view and we clearly differ about the meaning of the phrase reliable test, but that is for somewhere else...

As for my testing, I am more or less finished, I am going to be quite busy for a few months and I might return to it in late August. I will just say one thing in my cable testing *I* have not been able to reliably hear differences between cables, however *I* have (reliably) been able to hear small differences between my 4 CD players. The differences between cables (I have tested) are orders of magnitude smaller than the differences between my CD players.

 

[Audio-Omega]

I hope I won't get filled with heaps of "scientific" explanations the next time I ask for cable recommendation. All I want to know is which is better in sound and build quality, warranty, customer service and delivery time.

 

[BIG POPPA]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Audio-Omega /img/forum/go_quote.gif I hope I won't get filled with heaps of "scientific" explanations the next time I ask for cable recommendation. All I want to know is which is better in sound and build quality, warranty, customer service and delivery time.

X2

 

[PhilS]

Quote:

Originally Posted by null_pointer_us /img/forum/go_quote.gif When people say something that's false, about me personally or about the discussion itself, to the point of being very misleading to others, I feel obligated to respond.

You've responded very articulately and defended yourself admirably. Can we try to return to the main focus of this thread, and not divert ourselves further with philosophical issues or other somewhat tangential issues? Thanks much.

 

[yotacowboy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by null_pointer_us /img/forum/go_quote.gif Philosophy rivals economics for sheer volume of time willingly invested in faulty premises. Without getting too far off-topic, subjectivism vs. objectivism is an example of a debate based on a faulty premise. The question of whether everything is subjective or everything is objective is irrational. The truth is that some things are subjective while other things are objective, simply because that's the reality in which we happen to exist.

Fortunately, you could be wrong - and there lies the issue. "Faulty premise" or not, everyone might be wrong sometimes and we may even be wrong more often than not. Some people are aware of this, and post using terms such as "YMMV," or "IMHO." I've yet to see similar compassion towards the complexity of reality in many posts claiming to bear a "truth" or a "fact". Remember, our scientific constructs are inherently estimations, and therefore inherently incomplete. Clinging only to "rationality" as a predictive tool or argumentative device is worthwhile, but is, too, inherently incomplete.

Please, feel free to call this a pedantic, irrational philosophical premise.

Unfortunately, when topics such as these are presented to the novice (or even the seasoned veteran) from an overly didactic posture, and in binary terms e.g. subjective OR objective, philosophic OR scientific, a lack of simple humility with regards to the "real" complexity rubs many people raw.

In other words: it's likely not as simple as you think.

 

[olblueyez]

I was at a meet this weekend and someone had a GSX and we plugged in my 650's with the Equinox and his 650's with a stock cable. I could hear the difference with great ease. The owner of the amp spent about 20 minutes swapping them back and forth and came to the conclusion that there is no difference.

SO,

How bout we have a section for believers and a section for non believers. It would be nice to enjoy some cable talk without the usual group of people who can hear what I hear better than I can, hear what I hear.

This way cable fans can exchange idea's about cables and synergy and the non beleivers can exchange idea's about,,,,,,,,,,,,what ever it is they exchange.

 

[BIG POPPA]

To me some people give the gear too much credit compared to what the cables actually do.

 

[mbd2884]

Only problem I have is when people state their subjective opinions as fact, when it's nothing more than their perception. No proof or evidence but to say in their mind they hear a difference, and then to persuade someone to spend huge dollars based on that perception is just wrong! Great you think you hear a difference, but don't go post stating it as a fact. I percieved the cables in my mind to increase bass impact vs buy these cables, they will increase the bass impact. One is deceiving the inquiring person, the other is just an opinion. Which do you think that gets the skeptics up in arms?

 

[olblueyez]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mbd2884 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Only problem I have is when people state their subjective opinions as fact, when it's nothing more than their perception. No proof or evidence but to say in their mind they hear a difference, and then to persuade someone to spend huge dollars based on that perception is just wrong! Great you think you hear a difference, but don't go post stating it as a fact. I percieved the cables in my mind to increase bass impact vs buy these cables, they will increase the bass impact. One is deceiving the inquiring person, the other is just an opinion. Which do you think that gets the skeptics up in arms?

Its my opinion that you create useless post after useless post to gain attention because you don't have much of anything to say and your desperate need for attention gets you the rejection that fuels your pathetic need for attention.

I see you re-cabled your headphones, had some money that you wanted to set fire to?

 

[BIG POPPA]

olblueyez, these guys just kill me with zero proof of their own to prove their point. Why is it on the guy's on the other side of the fence? Mmbd2884 has never proven his point. Just made opinion!

 

[Dr. Strangelove]

Quote:

Originally Posted by olblueyez /img/forum/go_quote.gif Its my opinion that you create useless post after useless post to gain attention because you don't have much of anything to say and your desperate need for attention gets you the rejection that fuels your pathetic need for attention.

Your methods of argument seem highly flawed, lack respect, and are quite laden with prejudice...
Tell tale signs of ad hominem I would say.

 

[upstateguy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by olblueyez /img/forum/go_quote.gif I was at a meet this weekend and someone had a GSX and we plugged in my 650's with the Equinox and his 650's with a stock cable. I could hear the difference with great ease. The owner of the amp spent about 20 minutes swapping them back and forth and came to the conclusion that there is no difference. SO, How bout we have a section for believers and a section for non believers. It would be nice to enjoy some cable talk without the usual group of people who can hear what I hear better than I can, hear what I hear. This way cable fans can exchange idea's about cables and synergy and the non beleivers can exchange idea's about,,,,,,,,,,,,what ever it is they exchange.

I would like to suggest that when you can see the cable you're listening to, you most certainly hear what you hear, but under conditions where you cannot see the cable, you may actually not hear what you hear.

USG