[keesue]

PhilS,

In reading further, I realized I emphasized the civility aspect of the discussion in my discourse, because for me, it is hard to get past the lack of it - I simply lose the plot. I didn't mean to ignore your main point. I am new here but not new to audio or to logic.

Mea culpa.

 

[pabbi1]

Let's cut through some of the crap, shall we?

If a person posts about cables, and wanting to know about an option for a cable, say a Sennheiser after market option, is it, or is it not, a complete thread crap / troll post to interject that cables don't matter?

So, it is all a binary issue - 1 or 0.

That, in my opinion, is the whole debate.

Yes, or no.

The rights of people to discuss cables (implying some level of belief), is completely snuffed by 'non-believers'. Thus, better than a mod deleting posts - the 'freedom to express contrarian views' has been allowed to completely choke debate of any sort - other than believe / don't believe, black / white, 1/0.

Which, at the end of the end of the day, completely defeats the purpose of the forum itself - do discuss cables. NOT that they are irrelevant.

 

[null_pointer_us]

Quote:

Originally Posted by pabbi1 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Oh, it is absolutely the debate itself. A new poster innocently asks for opinions about cables, as in what is available, and what do the options sound like to people who have, you know, actually heard them. The self righteous demand to save them from the folly of even thinking cables might make a difference. Thus, it always is, and will be. So, this thread is the manifest example of the problem, and, why it cannot be solved. Thus, I contend it is poisoned beyond repair, with this thread as the empirical evidence, that none shall ever engage without becoming inflicted. It is simply not worth the inevitable thread crap / dump / fuhmitts that ensue, to any further participate in this forum.

Most of the people in this thread, myself included, have no problem with people posting subjective impressions about analog cables, without being "molested" (as it has been termed here) by people who insist that everyone accept that all cables make no difference.

I'm not sure if you are referring to my posts. The only thing I've been pointing out about cables, as a matter of fact, is that digital cables are not subject to the same SQ issues that make analog cable discussions useful and proper. I enjoy reading the analog cable threads, myself, and have no wish to see them disrupted.

But it's unfortunate that the constant back and forth has made this issue so confusing. I guess it's easy to see long posts and constant false accusations of close-mindedness and then just assume that's what's being advocated here.

Quote:

I do know if this ever cropped up in either the headphone OR amp forum ("protecting" newbies from the evils of opinions), it would be stomped out immediately. But, not here - because, in the end, cables really don't matter, ironically, except, I guess, to those of us who can no longer stand to post in this forum

Well, in other forums, people would have no problem dealing with facts they don't like. Here, people cannot accept the possibility that the issues affecting analog cables might not be applicable, as an entire class of observations, about digital cables, and therefore anyone who questions this "fact" is close-minded. Not one of them will discuss it as a factual claim -- not via PM or elsewhere -- all they can do is lie about what I've claimed.

I wish you well, and I hope that you return once things have "settled" here.

 

[PhilS]

Quote:

Originally Posted by keesue /img/forum/go_quote.gif PhilS, In reading further, I realized I emphasized the civility aspect of the discussion in my discourse, because for me, it is hard to get past the lack of it - I simply lose the plot. I didn't mean to ignore your main point. I am new here but not new to audio or to logic. Mea culpa.

No mea culpa necessary. My recent comment was not really directed at your comments. It was really directed at the some of my objectivists friends who might be failing to appreciate the extent to which many of us would really like to be able to discuss cables without the the ubiquitous "all cable sound the sound" type of comments.

 

[null_pointer_us]

Quote:

Originally Posted by yotacowboy /img/forum/go_quote.gif "it is not what you say that is important, it is what people hear that is important"

If they're not trying to hear what I've said, and instead act as if they heard from me what they wanted to hear, and then continue insulting me on the basis of that misrepresentation, AND mislead other people into thinking that was my position, then they have some serious problems with ethics and maturity. It's one thing to disagree with someone, and another to think they have the right to engage in smear tactics to avoid what was really said. I welcome disagreement; should you actually address what I did say, I would be happy to discuss it with you.

 

[keesue]

Thanks for that, PhilS. I want to be in good standing. I enjoy reading about the differences in various cables, configurations and impressions, which is why I joined this forum, as I find it fascinating and at the very heart of my love for this hobby. I came to love tubes and ribbons reading about them in Stereophile. After an audition, I was convinced they were for me; but hey, SS and cones work for me too. I have both and I remain open to listening to what others hear.

I hope youse guys continue posting your impressions...

<end of dribble>

 

[pabbi1]

For the record, I'll call out a major culprit - Bigshot. I would guess fully 80% of his poste were / are 'Cables don't matter'. Enough to make many give up - he was all but an auto post bot, with regularity, consistency, persistence, and dogma, or maybe just schtick.

I have tarried long enough in this wasteland, where much joy was once had, but never will, again. At least not for me. There are other forums where I can discuss cables at length, with a select crowd on enlightened users, who can express viewpoints from years of experience, with comparable equiptment, without the dogma of, well, inexperience.

SOS - Thanks for reminding why there is no real reason to come to the Cable forum - much less to ever post here. A stroll through the depths of this ocean will scarcely get your feet wet these days.

 

[Happy Camper]

Bigshot. There is a piece of work. He usually has good information on material. He was offered to have nice cables and power cords sent to review and he refused. Selective ignorance is bliss. He has his piggies following his song though.

Believers can go to our social groups. The anti-anti cable group is looking for a few good members.

 

[PhilS]

Quote:

Originally Posted by pabbi1 /img/forum/go_quote.gif For the record, I'll call out a major culprit - Bigshot. I would guess fully 80% of his poste were / are 'Cables don't matter'. Enough to make many give up - he was all but an auto post bot, with regularity, consistency, persistence, and dogma, or maybe just schtick.

LOL.

That brings back some memories. I got so sick of his repeated dogma about cables being snake oil, all CD players sounding the same, all audiophiles being idiots, etc., that I left Head-Fi completely for a time. It was just less fun, because his "schtick" was everywhere.

I started visiting Head-Fi more regularly again when I saw that he did not appear to be around much anymore (although he does have a clone who, fortunately, is not as prolific) and I noticed that the Sound Science forum was capturing a lot of the more disagreeable threads. But now, the virus has re-emerged and is spreading in the cable forum once again.

And if it isn't resolved, I'll follow you in abandoning the cable forum.

 

[number1sixerfan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by pabbi1 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Let's cut through some of the crap, shall we? If a person posts about cables, and wanting to know about an option for a cable, say a Sennheiser after market option, is it, or is it not, a complete thread crap / troll post to interject that cables don't matter?

No, it is not a thread crap. It entirely depends on the way it's done. Why? Because it is a fact that some people think they don't matter, just as it is a fact that some people do think they matter.

Is it a thread crap when some OP starts a thread about one headphone, and how it was an upgrade to another can, then someone comes in and completely states that it is a complete downgrade from that can? No, it is a differing opinion, and it happens every single day.

The difference here is that it occurs more often(which I can understand would be annoying for a pro-cable person) AND that people are waayyyyyy to emotional about it. Why are they too emotional? Well I can see why pro-cable people would be, when the other side of the argument lables then as imaginative and being ripped off, as well as the fact that it happens so often due to the fact that cables *do* come in lowest on the totem pole in regards to the rest of the system. This leads to some being strongly, strongly defensiveness.
And people on the anti-cable side of things are also sort of tired of being labeled "noobs" for not hearing the difference..or being told that they haven't spent enough money to hear it, and being told they they shouldn't talk about it. This leads to some being strongly aggressive in posting their view.

But stating it in a normal way is not a thread crap, it is a relevant opinion. It becomes a thread crap, when the same person is doing it over and over in a rude, overbearing and annoying way(i.e trolling).

 

[QQQ]

Quote:

Should There Be A Skeptics' "Cables Make No Difference" Sticky?

There're already whole "cables" subforum for those who excited to be fooled, and the rest of head-fi subforums for others.

 

[sacd lover]

Quote:

Originally Posted by null_pointer_us /img/forum/go_quote.gif I'm not sure if you are referring to my posts. The only thing I've been pointing out about cables, as a matter of fact, is that digital cables are not subject to the same SQ issues that make analog cable discussions useful and proper. I enjoy reading the analog cable threads, myself, and have no wish to see them disrupted.

Just to let you know, what you keep pointing out and asserting as true regarding digital cables is clearly not my experience. I have several dacs and awhile back I tried some Blue Jeans digital coax cables. With all the newer jitter rejection technology, improved clocks etc... I didnt expect some vast difference between cables. Furthermore, with all the assertions cables make no difference I constantly read

I thought why not give the BJ coax a try. In fact, I ordered two types of BJs digital coax.

However, the Enigma Audio coax cable I generally use was definitely better. Better how? Well, the BJ cable made the soundstage cramped and the sound as a whole was compressed and bass heavy. This difference was evident on three diffferent transports (Sacdmods Sony 555ES/9100ES and Eastsound E5) using three different type of dacs ( Zap filter analog output stage modded Zhalou 2.0c/ 2.5c and Opus). The difference between the two cables was the difference between totally enjoying the sound with the Enigma Audio and being bothered by the sound quality flaws with the BJ. I gave the BJ cables away.

Maybe there was some other reason but the digital coax cable was the only change. I almost dont want to post this but that is my experience. I didnt even need to look to know what cable was connected. I knew immediately once the music played for a short period of time .... and a quick check would confirm I was correct.

 

[tom hankins]

Quote:

Originally Posted by sacd lover /img/forum/go_quote.gif Just to let you know, what you keep pointing out and asserting as true regarding digital cables is clearly not my experience. I have several dacs and awhile back I tried some Blue Jeans digital coax cables. With all the newer jitter rejection technology, improved clocks etc... I didnt expect some vast difference between cables. Furthermore, with all the assertions cables make no difference I constantly read I thought why not give the BJ coax a try. In fact, I ordered two types of BJs digital coax. However, the Enigma Audio coax cable I generally use was definitely better. Better how? Well, the BJ cable made the soundstage cramped and the sound as a whole was compressed and bass heavy. This difference was evident on three diffferent transports (Sacdmods Sony 555ES/9100ES and Eastsound E5) using three different type of dacs ( Zap filter analog output stage modded Zhalou 2.0c/ 2.5c and Opus). The difference between the two cables was the difference between totally enjoying the sound with the Enigma Audio and being bothered by the sound quality flaws with the BJ. I gave the BJ cables away. Maybe there was some other reason but the digital coax cable was the only change. I almost dont want to post this but that is my experience. I didnt even need to look what cable was connected. I knew immediately once the music played for a short period of time.

This was also my finding when selecting a cable to run between an SCD-1 (as transport) and my Audio Aero prima SE dac.
I started with four Siltech, Kimber, and two from Creative cable. i ended up preferring (and keeping) the Siltech.

 

[pabbi1]

Quote:

Originally Posted by number1sixerfan /img/forum/go_quote.gif No, it is not a thread crap. It entirely depends on the way it's done. Why? Because it is a fact that some people think they don't matter, just as it is a fact that some people do think they matter. Is it a thread crap when some OP starts a thread about one headphone, and how it was an upgrade to another can, then someone comes in and completely states that it is a complete downgrade from that can? No, it is a differing opinion, and it happens every single day. The difference here is that it occurs more often(which I can understand would be annoying for a pro-cable person) AND that people are waayyyyyy to emotional about it. Why are they too emotional? Well I can see why pro-cable people would be, when the other side of the argument lables then as imaginative and being ripped off, as well as the fact that it happens so often due to the fact that cables *do* come in lowest on the totem pole in regards to the rest of the system. This leads to some being strongly, strongly defensiveness. And people on the anti-cable side of things are also sort of tired of being labeled "noobs" for not hearing the difference..or being told that they haven't spent enough money to hear it, and being told they they shouldn't talk about it. This leads to some being strongly aggressive in posting their view. But stating it in a normal way is not a thread crap, it is a relevant opinion. It becomes a thread crap, when the same person is doing it over and over in a rude, overbearing and annoying way(i.e trolling).

Justify thread crap any way you like. The case is now perfectly stated that no thread is off limits (defined in advance, asked for, etc) from 'cables don't matter'. Period. Great job!

Thus the conversation has grown tiresome, and the issue completely defined.

The cable forum is a thread crappers paradise, protected by freedom of expression.

Thus, most with anything to actually discuss regarding cables, other than their physical existance, and the _FACT_ that they do not matter, have voted with their feet.

Buh-bye.

 

[nick_charles]

Quote:

Originally Posted by pabbi1 /img/forum/go_quote.gif There are other forums where I can discuss cables at length, with a select crowd on enlightened users, who can express viewpoints from years of experience, with comparable equiptment, without the dogma of, well, inexperience.

As pointed out elsewhere there are many experienced listeners here and elsewhere with pricey stereos , good ears and taste who have experimented with many different cables and still decided that they do not think cables have an audible effect. To label those who share one view as enlightened and select and suggest that all others are green, is at the very least a misrepresentation. The labelling of those who do not share a particular view as mistaken is just as didactic and dogmatic as the idealogues at the other polar opposite.

I do not discount cable differences completely but 2 months ago I went forth and procured several (7) different cables to test out myself, i.e I tried it myself and just not abstract scientific principles, I think cable differences less likely now than I did before, based on my experiences and not on dogma.