[_daRK]

Another great update. May be I will forget all these previous months without bringing any useful feature Thank you!

 

[neodante]

Another one waiting for some sort of bookmark / remember position.

I don't care about Audible and other formats, and rewind/ffwd 30 seconds et al, but a proper resume that remembers last position would make this DAP perfect for podcast listening.

As it is, I still carry my iPod Nano everywhere.

Yeah! A proper resume that remember exactly the last position would be a great new add ( I listen a lot of podcasts ) Please @Shanling , tell about this petition to the Shanling developers

 

[fzsrv]

Ugh! I'm bricked! How do I get it back?

 

[gavranpero]

It's possible, but it's not easy.

 

[mlbSoft]

Hello everyone, long time reader, first time poster. I brought my new M0 home today and I must say I'm impressed, this tiny device going for 100 EUR has the best price/performance ratio of any electronic device I had in my hands in the last 10 years (DAP, DAC, LDAC, transmitter, receiver, you name it...). I primarily bought it to upgrade from trusty old Avantree Leaf USB Bluetooth transmitter (supports only AptX) to use it as LDAC DAC, since there are surprisingly no other devices for this purpose. I was afraid of using an DAP as DAC for usability reasons (do I have to go into menu every time? etc.), but it works far better than expected, automatically turns on by being plugged in, automatically pairs and so on. The range in LDAC is on par with Avantree Leaf in AptX. Thanks Shanling for such an amazing device!


However... There seems to be a significant audio delay when being used as BT USB DAC.

And I'm not talking about FPS gaming (that is always obvious on Bluetooth, maybe not in AptX LL, but never had headphones with LL codec). It is annoying even in videos where lip sync is approx. one spoken word behind; when pausing/seeking a video, the sound audibly continues for a while until it changes; click sounds in UI are audibly delayed. Haven't done any hard data recording yet, but to bring at least some science into it and rule out issues with headphones, PC, etc., using this

• old Sennheiser RS180 (proprietary wireless) on a PC soundcard: feels spot on (I'm using a somewhat slow monitor [29 ms input lag], so if there is any audio latency here, I guess it matches up to the display latency, this variable is the same in other cases below)
• Sony WH-1000XM3 on Avantree Leaf (AptX): almost spot on
• Sony WH-1000XM3 on Shanling M0 (AptX): approx. 200 ms
• Sony WH-1000XM3 on Shanling M0 (LDAC HQ): approx. 200 ms, seemed up to 300-400 ms after few hours continuous use

Is this normal/expected?

• I'm using "Minimum Latency" in Buffer Settings > USB Streaming Mode in M0's DAC driver (Driver v2.29.0, Device revision v3.31, Windows 10 17763.529).
• I'm on FW 3.0, upgraded straight from 2.1 out of the box, because BT USB was AFAIK added only in later versions.

Can anybody else check please? @Shanling ? Any settings to improve this? Seen a comment about DAC lag many pages back, but haven't found any replies to that and there was "Improved USB DAC mode, reducing lag" in FW 2.5... Is this still an issue?

 

[thefifthgiant]

Greetings. It has been a while since I chimed in, but I have been monitoring this thread closely as I continue to enjoy my m0 in hopes of updates. I just wanted to add to the list a few items that I previously mentioned (a while ago), that I don't want to be lost/forgotten among the requests for more flashy features.

Greetings, and happy new year!

1. Various issues with punctuation. The is an extra space after apostrophes in titles. (ex: 'Paul's Boutique' shows up as 'Paul' s Boutique'). Diacritical marks (accent marks) on vowels don't seem to work correctly, and show up as Chinese characters. This isn't consistent though, because the artist 'Bj◌̈rk' is messed up, but 'Mot◌̈rhead' is fine.
2. Speaking of external playlists, it would be nice if these showed up in the 'playlists' menu with the rest, rather than having to look through folders to find them. Can this be added to the 'update music' function?
3. As others have mentioned, replay gain support is really needed on this device. It would be nice to put the m0 in my pocket and stop messing with volume.
4. Also, it would be nice to have an option to add a wheel shortcut to lock the volume. I have had issues with the volume changing when moving around too much and I don't want to have to do this in the settings menu all the time. This would essentially serve the purpose of a "hold switch"
5. I would also like to see an option to exclude folders from the 'update music' feature. I have a lot of audio books that I don't want showing up or shuffling with everything else. I don't mind having to manually navigate to these files when I need them, and this might be an easier option to implement than full-blown audio book support.

These are all still true for me as of fw2.5, and I am holding of on updating to 3.0 until the issues with the update have been sorted out, so I can't confirm if these problems still exist on 3.0 at this time. I didn't see these addressed in the release notes.

I went ahead and updated yesterday without reading and it went fine. Dunno if it was the updated file or not tho.

Of note, i really like the swipe up quick menu with the Bluetooth button. I can't access it from the now playing screen for some reason. Yh, the Bluetooth animation does seem a bit much but the rest of the UI changes were generally for the better - it had to be said. Especially in the dark, as someone mentioned before. Patiently waiting for ReplayGain and app to complete the trifecta. One down two to go. Choo choo motherlovers!

Is there a way to stop the m0 from automatically powering on when plugging into charge? In turn, it automatically pairs to my phone almost every time i plug it into the wall. Annoyance level: yellow (let's leave the mountains and moles out of this, lol)

I agree with all of these points, and I know others have expressed these opinions as well. The new UI looks very promising, but slightly over the top in regards to a few things like the bluetooth animation, new icons, etc. I prefer things clean and minimal but it really isn't a deal-breaker. And yes, the quick menu should be accessible at all times, including during playback. If people don't want to use it they don't have to. Last but not least, replay gain is still my top request, just like everyone else.

Hi Shanling
My Shanling M0 is still stuck following the update. And I'm not the only one. News for ' unbricking ' it?
In case you could not do anything, a commercial gesture would be appreciated.
I remember a COWON who had blocked a few years ago. I found on the net a small software that corrected the problem.
Many thanks .

This worries me, and will prevent me from even trying to use the new firmware until Shanling properly addresses it. I see little reason to risk my device with no apparent fix for bricked units, and on top of that it sounds like that the big ticket item for this update (custom eq) is not working. Can anyone confirm that they have actually been able to get this eq function working?

I would also like to throw another request on the pile if it hasn't been mentioned yet: the ability to use "Album Artist" instead of "Artist" when updating the music database. It is much more practical when searching for music to do it this way, so you don't have to sort through multiple artists on collaborative tracks.

Sorry for the negativity, I am still very happy with my purchase but I felt like it needed to speak up once more. On a positive note, I recently splurged for the leather case and I have to say it is very nice looking and a good fit for the m0.

 

[Shanling]

Hello.

Many thanks for the update, was waiting for the custom EQ since the beginning!

However, not sure if doing something wrong but the presets or any changes, even turning the EQ on or off doesnt make any change to sound. Just doesnt work.

Tried editing presets, switching to other, turning the EQ on and off, pausing the track and doing the same all over again etc., no use.

Using Sennheiser PXC550 with aptX.

Please, lets fix this.

I'm not sure where problem could be. I tested with our MW100, using aptX and all EQ changes were clearly audible.

Anybody else experienced such problem?

Could you please pass the dev team to remove that one super bright white random thumbnail? I use my Shanling at night and I use dark theme. These random album arts are generally okay since they are dark as well, but one of them isn't. That one burns my eyes randomly.

Btw I installed the newest firmware and I'm glad you guys moved the icons away from the borders of the device. It's much easier to press them now. Aesthetically this update is great as well. However, MP3 and FLAC icons have still the same color (so if you want to find some FLAC quickly, good luck with that) and there is still no option to turn these icons. Many of us would rather see more text than the extension of each file.

And the last thing - Whenever you wake up the device, you are teleported back to the playback screen, no matter where you were before. It was always like that and I was "ugh, okay" with this. But the newest update released new quick panel which is kinda useless because of this "always-go-back-to-the-playback-screen" feature.

Will talk to them about white cover art.

Regarding icons, you have icons on all levels to indicate different things, not sure if it would be possible to have only some of them removed.

We actually took it as advantage, you can quickly jump into now playing screen just with two taps of wheel. And quick panel, I was talking with designer team about putting it into now playing screen and overall adjusting it to be more useful. Will see how it evolves.

Thank!
Tell me please.
Is this equalizer the one that coded was designed to Shanling from scratch for your products ??
Or is it all the same linux mplayer equalizer with a customization interface added for m0 ??

It's still the same old EQ system, just with added customization.

@Shanling Frankie - any news or update with regards to audiobook / podcast support?
I am still optimistic........ (and hopeful)

Unfortunately no update at this time.

Any info on the eq implementation? Is it fully customizable/parametric or just 10 fixed bands with customizable dB value?

Fixed 10 bands.

If we add in the equalizer the output of the current numerical value for each band, the convenience of tuning will increase by several times.
When adjusting, the setting slider is completely closed with a finger and it is impossible to see whether a change has occurred or not.
Move to a small value in the right direction is now almost impossible.
It is impossible even visually to determine by eye whether the point has shifted down or to the top.
Outputting the current value will make everything much more convenient.

We are now mainly looking into possibility to change EQ using wheel, which would improve accuracy.

Everything is animated without any benefit to the user. Why does the bluetooth background need to be so distracting? Why does it need the animated circle around the battery while charging. Cluttering the UI just for the sake of having useless animations seems strange to me. Before it looked more professional.

@Shanling
I have to agree with most comments. Bluettoth and Battery charging icons and animations look strange when compared to the rest of the UI.
I think they looked cleaner before. All other changes are welome, though.

After using it for a bit, I have some issues/suggestions:
-This is subjective, but the bluetooth screen animation looks a little too "extra". I think the charging screen animation is the right amount of animation.

-I also think it would be nice to be able to bring up the quick access menu from any screen. It would be nice to be able to change to bluetooth/change brightness on the music screen instead of having to go back to the main menu to do it. The play/pause/skip and shuffle parts would be redundant but being able to bring it up on any screen would be a QoL improvement.

Our core market is still China and apparently they like these things...

And quick panel, I was talking with designer team about putting it into now playing screen and overall adjusting it to be more useful. Will see how it evolves.
For some reason it's different from quick panels on M2S and M5s, where you swipe from lower edge, he it's simple swipe up. So while it works in main menu and should work as good on now playing screen, it's not possible to put it into submenus, where it would be interfering with scrolling.

What is the point of showing that the player in "line out" mode if you can't see it on the now playing display where the play,pause,next, previous, playback mode and favorites can be seen? You still have to exit that screen to see the status.

Good point and something that should be fixed.

Older devices? It's a year old and still in its infancy with a brand new in house homegrown OS. They better have updates for the next three years easy. And the phone app hasn't even dropped yet.

Hmm, 4 years of firmware updates? That's quite a lot, not even google and their Nexus/Pixel phones get that. Not even mentioning other manufacturers.

Hi Shanling
My Shanling M0 is still stuck following the update. And I'm not the only one. News for ' unbricking ' it?
In case you could not do anything, a commercial gesture would be appreciated.
I remember a COWON who had blocked a few years ago. I found on the net a small software that corrected the problem.
Many thanks .

As I posted previously, any user with these problems should PM me, dealing with them directly and getting devices fixed.

@Shanling

Please add support for OPUS codec for M0

If I download music from youtube it is typically encoded in OPUS

You already added OPUS support to older models, so it should not be very difficult I think:

Currently I get this error message on firmware v2.3 when opening ogg-opus file:

On older players, it was different system.

OPUS is still on list of things to add, but since it's pretty unknown and not widely used format( and Youtube downloads are not really something we expect to change it), I'm not sure when software team will get to it.

Ugh! I'm bricked! How do I get it back?

Please send me PM.

However... There seems to be a significant audio delay when being used as BT USB DAC.

And I'm not talking about FPS gaming (that is always obvious on Bluetooth, maybe not in AptX LL, but never had headphones with LL codec). It is annoying even in videos where lip sync is approx. one spoken word behind; when pausing/seeking a video, the sound audibly continues for a while until it changes; click sounds in UI are audibly delayed. Haven't done any hard data recording yet, but to bring at least some science into it and rule out issues with headphones, PC, etc., using this

• old Sennheiser RS180 (proprietary wireless) on a PC soundcard: feels spot on (I'm using a somewhat slow monitor [29 ms input lag], so if there is any audio latency here, I guess it matches up to the display latency, this variable is the same in other cases below)
• Sony WH-1000XM3 on Avantree Leaf (AptX): almost spot on
• Sony WH-1000XM3 on Shanling M0 (AptX): approx. 200 ms
• Sony WH-1000XM3 on Shanling M0 (LDAC HQ): approx. 200 ms, seemed up to 300-400 ms after few hours continuous use

Is this normal/expected?

• I'm using "Minimum Latency" in Buffer Settings > USB Streaming Mode in M0's DAC driver (Driver v2.29.0, Device revision v3.31, Windows 10 17763.529).
• I'm on FW 3.0, upgraded straight from 2.1 out of the box, because BT USB was AFAIK added only in later versions.

Can anybody else check please? @Shanling ? Any settings to improve this? Seen a comment about DAC lag many pages back, but haven't found any replies to that and there was "Improved USB DAC mode, reducing lag" in FW 2.5... Is this still an issue?

200 ms is standard for aptX and LDAC, to get lower latency you either need to use aptX LL or there must be some delay set in software, there is no other way around it. Likely Avantree had some build in software that was setting this delay automatically. You would need to look into sound setting on your computer and change the sound delay to offset this native problem of Bluetooth.

 

[mlbSoft]

200 ms is standard for aptX and LDAC, to get lower latency you either need to use aptX LL or there must be some delay set in software, there is no other way around it. Likely Avantree had some build in software that was setting this delay automatically. You would need to look into sound setting on your computer and change the sound delay to offset this native problem of Bluetooth.

Thank you for the speedy response!

However, I'm not sure if this is the case. Yes, Bluetooth does add some latency (this is clearly felt especially in games where there is a noticeable pause between a key press and almost immediate video response and a somewhat slower audio response), but not as much as here, I've never experienced such a delay that I noticed out-of-sync videos almost immediately and this is the reason why I started comparing...

Moreover, the Avantree Leaf acts as a really "dumb" DAC - it doesn't even have own driver (nor any other custom software) and uses Microsoft drivers, in the same way as, for example, Fiio E10 - plug it in, it works immediately with default Windows "USB Audio" drivers. And while delaying the video to match up with delayed audio is a possibility and many video players offers this option (VLC, PotPlayer, ...), this cannot be done the other way around - playing the sound sooner than the computer sends it out - as in every other use case: YouTube videos in browser, user interface mouse clicks, games, etc., where other options doesn't experience the M0's lag. Even if the Avantree's USB stick actually did some compensation for delayed BT sound in videos, it cannot do such in clicks etc. and play the sound sooner than the computer generates it.

Meanwhile I've done some more testing:

• Sony WH-1000XM3 (Bluetooth) on Galaxy Note 4 (AptX confirmed by Sony app, sadly no LDAC for older Androids): almost spot on
• Sony WH-1000XM3 (Bluetooth) paired directly to PC (unknown codec - hopefully AptX, Qualcomm Atheros QCA61x4A chip on motherboard): almost spot on
• Sony WH-1000XM3 (jack-jack cable) on Shanling M0: spot on

So it seems the delay:

• really occurs within the M0 device/drivers (since it doesn't occur [to such a truly noticeable extent] on Avantree's USB stick, PC's on-board Bluetooth, phone's Bluetooth),
• but it is localized to M0's Bluetooth system only (since it doesn't occur when headphones are connected to the M0 directly via cable). Isn't there some in-built buffering or something like that?

Can you please investigate further?

 

[paddler57]

Hmm, 4 years of firmware updates? That's quite a lot, not even google and their Nexus/Pixel phones get that. Not even mentioning other manufacturers.

Well this isn't a phone. This is a very specific device as you've been quick to point out in the past (especially when people have asked for certain features.) And android is a rather mature OS at this point. Yours? Not so much. And as you also have pointed out, you cater quite a bit to a Chinese audience which the vast majority of us are not. Taking all that into
consideration along with not even having the app up and running, I would easily expect 3yrs of firmware updates until your OS is extremely stable, free of bugs and quite mature before you even think of abandoning this device, and that includes the app along with a worldwide market firmware and not a Chinese catered one. As you said, they like certain things, and as you can see from responses here, we don't seem to like what they do. And I wasn't even thinking that was the reason (outside of language) why many of these China made devices have separate firmware for China and the rest of the world. Even games I've played are designed differently for the Chinese market (of course to get them to spend money as they value things differently so the games are designed accordingly). Safe to say, you catering to that market and expecting everyone else to be ok with it doesn't seem to make a lot of sense. I don't think anyone buying this went into it knowing you were steering the design of your firmware towards the Chinese market.

And instead of comparing to phones, why not compare it to actual MP3 players of old. My Cowons got years of support with updates. When I think back, I think my Rio's and Neuros were about the same. Anything less, and you just feed into the environmentally unfriendly trend of things becoming disposable way before their useful life is over. And using Google as an example is not good because Google is going to have their hands full at some point as more and more of their chromebooks get EOL'd with updates. People dropping hundreds of dollars on a chromebook that has a 4yr life span when their windows laptop is six plus years old and still receiving regular updates. And that doesn't matter when you bought it. You could buy a chromebook yesterday that was made three months before, but if its initial release date was three years ago, you could be SOL with updates in a year's time. How's that for a kick in the twigs and berries?

200 ms is standard for aptX and LDAC, to get lower latency you either need to use aptX LL or there must be some delay set in software, there is no other way around it. Likely Avantree had some build in software that was setting this delay automatically. You would need to look into sound setting on your computer and change the sound delay to offset this native problem of Bluetooth.

I've been a big fan of MX Player and VLC for correcting lip sync latency issues. You can either whine about it, or just take matters into your own hands and correct it yourself. I've got three different TWS buds, and all seem to have slightly different latency with my devices. Two acceptable without correction and one that needs correction (of course my favorite ones to use otherwise). And my IconX's that had no latency issues on any device got stolen. Honestly, who takes something off of your stuff while you're refilling your drink?

 

[TLDRonin]

Well this isn't a phone. This is a very specific device as you've been quick to point out in the past (especially when people have asked for certain features. And android is a rather mature OS at this point. Yours? Not so much. And as you also have pointed out, cater quite a bit to a Chinese audience which the vast majority of us are not. Taking all that into
consideration along with not even having the app up and running, I would easily expect 3yrs of firmware updates until your OS is extremely stable, free of bugs and quite mature before you even think of abandoning this device, and that includes the app. And that includes a worldwide market and not a Chinese catered one. As you said, they like certain things, and as you can see from responses here, we don't seem to like what they do. And I wasn't even thinking that was the reason (outside of language) why many of these China made devices have separate firmware for China and the rest of the world. Even games I've played are designed differently for the Chinese market (of course to get them to spend money as they value things differently so the games are designed accordingly). Safe to say, you catering to that market and expecting everyone else to be ok with it doesn't seem to make a lot of sense.

And since you want to compare it to phones, why not compare it to actual MP3 players of old. My Cowon got years of support with updates.

Jesus, the entitlement

 

[paddler57]

Jesus, the entitlement

Damn straight. Maybe you want to live in a disposable world. Maybe you're fine with companies abandoning their devices after a couple years. Sorry, I don't share that sentiment. It's a disposable way of thinking. This OS didn't even exist in a commercial product until this was introduced last year. And that same OS is running on their newer products. It is not unrealistic to think 3yrs of updates should be normal. And as mentioned, they don't even have their app up and running. And as we find out, many of the firmware changes cater to one audience as the current form of the app does. I think it's a bit shortsighted to not expect a seamless product before they wash their hands of it. And since it is running the same core OS as their newer devices (less than a year newer mind you), that improvements should trickle down to the M0.

Maybe I'm channeling my inner Fish. I don't care. People need to hold these companies to higher standards instead of expecting you to upgrade to the next best thing every couple years.

 

[mlbSoft]

I've been a big fan of MX Player and VLC for correcting lip sync latency issues. You can either whine about it, or just take matters into your own hands and correct it yourself.

Yes, you can lipsync video files easily, PotPlayer even has keys mapped for that, tap SHIFT+> three to four times (-0.15 to -0.2 sec) and Bob's your uncle. But you cannot sync everything other, e.g. mouse click sounds and other sound responses in programs – when the click sound plays, the next screen is already loaded and shown (!); watching an online presentation with sound playing a full spoken word later than speaker's mouth is moving; or watching proprietary locked streams. Right now it seems that the option is to use M0 for sound quality (LDAC) with music (lag doesn't matter) and local videos (lag compensated with lip sync settings) and switch back to another USB stick/onboard BT for everything else and everyday PC use, but that is super inconvenient, shuffling USBs around constantly (or keep them plugged in and shuffle connected Bluetooth devices)...

 

[TLDRonin]

Damn straight. Maybe you want to live in a disposable world. Maybe you're fine with companies abandoning their devices after a couple years. Sorry, I don't share that sentiment. It's a disposable way of thinking. This OS didn't even exist in a commercial product until this was introduced last year. And that same OS is running on their newer products. It is not unrealistic to think 3yrs of updates should be normal. And as mentioned, they don't even have their app up and running. And as we find out, many of the firmware changes cater to one audience as the current form of the app does. I think it's a bit shortsighted to not expect a seamless product before they wash their hands of it. And since it is running the same core OS as their newer devices (less than a year newer mind you), that improvements should trickle down to the M0.

Maybe I'm channeling my inner Fish. I don't care. People need to hold these companies to higher standards instead of expecting you to upgrade to the next best thing every couple years.

Its a $100 mini DAP.

I don't know why you are putting this issue of update cycles on shanling. It's an industry/business practice. Its fair to not like it, but expecting shanling to be the one not to practice it when it turns even less profit than bigger companies is too much.

Can you link where shanling promised to deliver a phone app for the m0? I saw posts of them having it planned and releasing some alpha for android, but by the way your wording it sounds like shanling is breaking a promise. I too would love an app and would be disappointed if it didn't pan out.

You say we should hold shanling to the same standards as other mp3 players, but use only cowon as an example. What other mini DAPs have had multiple updates every year for 3-4 years? The cheapest cowon dap I can find is the Plenue D (which is huge compared to the m0 and $80 more), and I can only find 2 updates in a 2 year span on their website.

And as for saying we aren't getting improvements, we've had 6 updates since release with more presumably to come. Calling that "washing their hands of it" seems... narrow-minded.

 

[paddler57]

Yes, you can lipsync video files easily, PotPlayer even has keys mapped for that, tap SHIFT+> three to four times (-0.15 to -0.2 sec) and Bob's your uncle. But you cannot sync everything other, e.g. mouse click sounds and other sound responses in programs – when the click sound plays, the next screen is already loaded and shown (!); watching an online presentation with sound playing a full spoken word later than speaker's mouth is moving; or watching proprietary locked streams. Right now it seems that the option is to use M0 for sound quality (LDAC) with music (lag doesn't matter) and local videos (lag compensated with lip sync settings) and switch back to another USB stick/onboard BT for everything else and everyday PC use, but that is super inconvenient, shuffling USBs around constantly (or keep them plugged in and shuffle connected Bluetooth devices)...

And outside of some shuffling or switching for a teleconference, the need for an outboard DAC for a conference call is necessary why? Are you saying you can't understand the speaker with the device's built in bluetooth or even corded? And granted there's always situations where there isn't a simple fix. But you know what? Bluetooth just inherently sucks. It was never meant to be used the way we use it now. It's a standard, but there is nothing standard about it. All devices have different bluetooth stacks. There are always bluetooth devices that don't seem to work with some products and work fine with others. Some have no lag with one device but lots of lag with others. Heck, my MPOW T5's would pair but give no sound on my Pixelbook for many many months. Finally, with whatever update they did, they finally paired and had sound. Of course the latency sucks, and whatever limitation there is in the android apps, I can't do any lipsync/latency correction in MX Player. Not to mention you have one fairly universal codec, that by design is not bad. SBC is actually a decent codec, as capable as AAC, yet not one mfg implements it to the best of its abilities. They treat it like crap, and that's how it sounds generally in comparison to AAC, AptX and LDAC. AptX is another bag of worms. Companies have to pay for it. They have multiple codecs and not all will even work with some devices. Some are hardware specific. Then you have devices that work great on one product and suck on another one. Companies don't like to place blame on their own products either and constantly place the blame on the BT product you're using or the BT product company will blame the device you're pairing it to.

Definitely one reason why I'll never buy a product that isn't firmware upgradeable. Especially any device with BT.

 

[paddler57]

Its a $100 mini DAP.

I don't know why you are putting this issue of update cycles on shanling. It's an industry/business practice. Its fair to not like it, but expecting shanling to be the one not to practice it when it turns even less profit than bigger companies is too much.

Can you link where shanling promised to deliver a phone app for the m0? I saw posts of them having it planned and releasing some alpha for android, but by the way your wording it sounds like shanling is breaking a promise. I too would love an app and would be disappointed if it didn't pan out.

You say we should hold shanling to the same standards as other mp3 players, but use only cowon as an example. What other mini DAPs have had multiple updates every year for 3-4 years? The cheapest cowon dap I can find is the Plenue D (which is huge compared to the m0 and $80 more), and I can only find 2 updates in a 2 year span on their website.

And as for saying we aren't getting improvements, we've had 6 updates since release with more presumably to come. Calling that "washing their hands of it" seems... narrow-minded.

The app was mentioned from the get go. They just had no set time frame for its release. Then it was, we have a beta, but it's for the China market for whatever they like to do with it. I don't remember. And then (the other day), we finally have the feature set for it, and it's off to the design team. But they actually had a pretty well designed app in the HiBy one to use for reference in designing theirs, but a year and a half later it's parameters just got set, and now it's going to the design team. And then its mentioned, well it's not just getting designed. We have a beta already out there. Yeah, the one that was strictly for one market and only geared towards a couple specific features for that market. So nothing at all like the app everyone is expecting.

And my Cowon players are older. Haven't used one in years since I bought their app that works much better on the phone, and I have a G7 that sounds better than either of their players I have. And their OS was fairly mature, just like their app is well polished and gets regular updates. In fact many android apps that are worthwhile get constantly updated. My DocsToGo app has been getting updates for a decade plus now.

This OS isn't there yet. Not mature yet. They're still tweaking, refining and what not. So to think M0 could be abandoned in less than a year doesn't make much sense. Can only imagine when they do finally introduce the app, and there are issues with it interacting with the M0 next year. Sorry, we're at our two year limit. Upgrade to our M0S. What about the guy that gets an M0 for Christmas only to find out he's not getting anymore updates months after receiving it. Would you buy any product knowing you most likely won't get any updates or see any improvements within the year?