[Shanling]

Thank you for the speedy response!

However, I'm not sure if this is the case. Yes, Bluetooth does add some latency (this is clearly felt especially in games where there is a noticeable pause between a key press and almost immediate video response and a somewhat slower audio response), but not as much as here, I've never experienced such a delay that I noticed out-of-sync videos almost immediately and this is the reason why I started comparing...

Moreover, the Avantree Leaf acts as a really "dumb" DAC - it doesn't even have own driver (nor any other custom software) and uses Microsoft drivers, in the same way as, for example, Fiio E10 - plug it in, it works immediately with default Windows "USB Audio" drivers. And while delaying the video to match up with delayed audio is a possibility and many video players offers this option (VLC, PotPlayer, ...), this cannot be done the other way around - playing the sound sooner than the computer sends it out - as in every other use case: YouTube videos in browser, user interface mouse clicks, games, etc., where other options doesn't experience the M0's lag. Even if the Avantree's USB stick actually did some compensation for delayed BT sound in videos, it cannot do such in clicks etc. and play the sound sooner than the computer generates it.

Meanwhile I've done some more testing:

• Sony WH-1000XM3 (Bluetooth) on Galaxy Note 4 (AptX confirmed by Sony app, sadly no LDAC for older Androids): almost spot on
• Sony WH-1000XM3 (Bluetooth) paired directly to PC (unknown codec - hopefully AptX, Qualcomm Atheros QCA61x4A chip on motherboard): almost spot on
• Sony WH-1000XM3 (jack-jack cable) on Shanling M0: spot on

So it seems the delay:

• really occurs within the M0 device/drivers (since it doesn't occur [to such a truly noticeable extent] on Avantree's USB stick, PC's on-board Bluetooth, phone's Bluetooth),
• but it is localized to M0's Bluetooth system only (since it doesn't occur when headphones are connected to the M0 directly via cable). Isn't there some in-built buffering or something like that?

Can you please investigate further?

Apart from using aptX Low latency, there will always be some lag. Standard apt-X has latency around 160-200, so if are are hearing no latency on Avantree, but hear it on M0, it means it's more than the 200 ms for M0.

Will try to look further into it on M0, will see if I can get some measurements on latency.

 

[TLDRonin]

The app was mentioned from the get go. They just had no set time frame for its release. Then it was, we have a beta, but it's for the China market for whatever they like to do with it. I don't remember. And then (the other day), we finally have the feature set for it, and it's off to the design team. But they actually had a pretty well designed app in the HiBy one to use for reference in designing theirs, but a year and a half later it's parameters just got set, and now it's going to the design team. And then its mentioned, well it's not just getting designed. We have a beta already out there. Yeah, the one that was strictly for one market and only geared towards a couple specific features for that market. So nothing at all like the app everyone is expecting.

And my Cowon players are older. Haven't used one in years since I bought their app that works much better on the phone, and I have a G7 that sounds better than either of their players I have. And their OS was fairly mature, just like their app is well polished and gets regular updates. In fact many android apps that are worthwhile get constantly updated. My DocsToGo app has been getting updates for a decade plus now.

This OS isn't there yet. Not mature yet. They're still tweaking, refining and what not. So to think M0 could be abandoned in less than a year doesn't make much sense. Can only imagine when they do finally introduce the app, and there are issues with it interacting with the M0 next year. Sorry, we're at our two year limit. Upgrade to our M0S. What about the guy that gets an M0 for Christmas only to find out he's not getting anymore updates months after receiving it. Would you buy any product knowing you most likely won't get any updates or see any improvements within the year?

Are you comparing smartphone app updates to a dap firmware update.....? That is apples to oranges

The current M0 does everything it was advertised to do. Buying a $100 dap with the expectation that everything you want will be added is fundamentally flawed. Thats not to say DAP companies shouldn't update their product's firmware, but the people shouldn't act entitled to receive 3-4 years of constant updates for all the features they want. Buy the product for what it is, not what it could be with future updates that aren't set in stone. Its wishful thinking to want companies to cannibalize their own sales of newer products so that people can stay happy with their older DAPs.


Again, the M0 has received 6 updates with more presumably to come. What is this idea that there are no updates or improvements coming from?

 

[roebeet]

The app was mentioned from the get go. They just had no set time frame for its release. Then it was, we have a beta, but it's for the China market for whatever they like to do with it. I don't remember. And then (the other day), we finally have the feature set for it, and it's off to the design team. But they actually had a pretty well designed app in the HiBy one to use for reference in designing theirs, but a year and a half later it's parameters just got set, and now it's going to the design team. And then its mentioned, well it's not just getting designed. We have a beta already out there. Yeah, the one that was strictly for one market and only geared towards a couple specific features for that market. So nothing at all like the app everyone is expecting.

And my Cowon players are older. Haven't used one in years since I bought their app that works much better on the phone, and I have a G7 that sounds better than either of their players I have. And their OS was fairly mature, just like their app is well polished and gets regular updates. In fact many android apps that are worthwhile get constantly updated. My DocsToGo app has been getting updates for a decade plus now.

This OS isn't there yet. Not mature yet. They're still tweaking, refining and what not. So to think M0 could be abandoned in less than a year doesn't make much sense. Can only imagine when they do finally introduce the app, and there are issues with it interacting with the M0 next year. Sorry, we're at our two year limit. Upgrade to our M0S. What about the guy that gets an M0 for Christmas only to find out he's not getting anymore updates months after receiving it. Would you buy any product knowing you most likely won't get any updates or see any improvements within the year?

I'm all for years of firmware updates, don't get me wrong. But three years was fairly rare even ten years back - two years was more the average from my recollection - two examples from my own collection are the Sandisk Sansa with two years of updates (a closer price point the M0 btw) and the Gigabeat F was only about a year of updates. Cowon was more the exception than the rule - although if you bought the D2+ as a "new" device you only got I believe one or two updates before it was abandoned...it was just a rebadged D2 but was still being sold as a new device, technically.

And there are plenty of older devices that were abandoned with an OS that could have used future improvements or feature enhancements. Usually when I buy a device I buy it for what it does today and not necessarily what it might do with a possible future feature enhancement.

 

[depp.jones]

I totally agree with the benefit of constant updates, but it's just not, what I expect from a DAP. I expect it to work out of the box as advertised. If there are issues with it, they have to be solved. That's it. Adding features, polishing the UI, including users wishes - nice to have and a bonus for the company it offers, but I don't care if they don't come.
From what I experienced with the M0, Shangling does a good job, compared with some others. I got a FiiO that now seems abandoned with a firmware that is a mess (but still usable). My Archos DAP 15 years got three firmware updates shortly after it was out, but then nothing more. But that did mostly everything as it should right out of the box.
I think the problems arise, when companies push out devices too early and try to fix things with firmware updates afterwards.

 

[jeanolivier]

Apart from using aptX Low latency, there will always be some lag. Standard apt-X has latency around 160-200, so if are are hearing no latency on Avantree, but hear it on M0, it means it's more than the 200 ms for M0.

Will try to look further into it on M0, will see if I can get some measurements on latency.

Hi Shanling .
How to send you a personal message on this thread?
Thanks

I'm not sure where problem could be. I tested with our MW100, using aptX and all EQ changes were clearly audible.

Anybody else experienced such problem?



Will talk to them about white cover art.

Regarding icons, you have icons on all levels to indicate different things, not sure if it would be possible to have only some of them removed.

We actually took it as advantage, you can quickly jump into now playing screen just with two taps of wheel. And quick panel, I was talking with designer team about putting it into now playing screen and overall adjusting it to be more useful. Will see how it evolves.



It's still the same old EQ system, just with added customization.



Unfortunately no update at this time.



Fixed 10 bands.



We are now mainly looking into possibility to change EQ using wheel, which would improve accuracy.





Our core market is still China and apparently they like these things...

And quick panel, I was talking with designer team about putting it into now playing screen and overall adjusting it to be more useful. Will see how it evolves.
For some reason it's different from quick panels on M2S and M5s, where you swipe from lower edge, he it's simple swipe up. So while it works in main menu and should work as good on now playing screen, it's not possible to put it into submenus, where it would be interfering with scrolling.



Good point and something that should be fixed.




Hmm, 4 years of firmware updates? That's quite a lot, not even google and their Nexus/Pixel phones get that. Not even mentioning other manufacturers.



As I posted previously, any user with these problems should PM me, dealing with them directly and getting devices fixed.



On older players, it was different system.

OPUS is still on list of things to add, but since it's pretty unknown and not widely used format( and Youtube downloads are not really something we expect to change it), I'm not sure when software team will get to it.



Please send me PM.



200 ms is standard for aptX and LDAC, to get lower latency you either need to use aptX LL or there must be some delay set in software, there is no other way around it. Likely Avantree had some build in software that was setting this delay automatically. You would need to look into sound setting on your computer and change the sound delay to offset this native problem of Bluetooth.

Hi Shanling .
How to send you a personal message on this thread?
Thanks

 

[endgame4]

Hi Shanling .
How to send you a personal message on this thread?
Thanks

Hi Shanling .
How to send you a personal message on this thread?
Thanks

You click on the little envelope icon next to his name.

 

[jeanolivier]

You click on the little envelope icon next to his name.

Many Thanks.

 

[ColdsnapBry]

I always wait a few days before updating firmware then check the forums first, glad I did! Thanks for continuing to support the M0! I don't really like the new UI design, as I had the dark theme on before and I thought the presentation was modern and tasteful. I find the new one to be a bit adolescence and also the icons are just sort of bad. BUT the front menu is faster and I can see the quick access menu being useful. I don't really have use for the EQ, but I can see a lot of people being happy with that. I've had many great moments listening to this DAP with my setup!

 

[J Kelley]

Well this isn't a phone. This is a very specific device as you've been quick to point out in the past (especially when people have asked for certain features.) And android is a rather mature OS at this point. Yours? Not so much. And as you also have pointed out, you cater quite a bit to a Chinese audience which the vast majority of us are not. Taking all that into
consideration along with not even having the app up and running, I would easily expect 3yrs of firmware updates until your OS is extremely stable, free of bugs and quite mature before you even think of abandoning this device, and that includes the app along with a worldwide market firmware and not a Chinese catered one. As you said, they like certain things, and as you can see from responses here, we don't seem to like what they do. And I wasn't even thinking that was the reason (outside of language) why many of these China made devices have separate firmware for China and the rest of the world. Even games I've played are designed differently for the Chinese market (of course to get them to spend money as they value things differently so the games are designed accordingly). Safe to say, you catering to that market and expecting everyone else to be ok with it doesn't seem to make a lot of sense. I don't think anyone buying this went into it knowing you were steering the design of your firmware towards the Chinese market.

And instead of comparing to phones, why not compare it to actual MP3 players of old. My Cowons got years of support with updates. When I think back, I think my Rio's and Neuros were about the same. Anything less, and you just feed into the environmentally unfriendly trend of things becoming disposable way before their useful life is over. And using Google as an example is not good because Google is going to have their hands full at some point as more and more of their chromebooks get EOL'd with updates. People dropping hundreds of dollars on a chromebook that has a 4yr life span when their windows laptop is six plus years old and still receiving regular updates. And that doesn't matter when you bought it. You could buy a chromebook yesterday that was made three months before, but if its initial release date was three years ago, you could be SOL with updates in a year's time. How's that for a kick in the twigs and berries?


I've been a big fan of MX Player and VLC for correcting lip sync latency issues. You can either whine about it, or just take matters into your own hands and correct it yourself. I've got three different TWS buds, and all seem to have slightly different latency with my devices. Two acceptable without correction and one that needs correction (of course my favorite ones to use otherwise). And my IconX's that had no latency issues on any device got stolen. Honestly, who takes something off of your stuff while you're refilling your drink?

Go buy a new Ford and after taking ownership demand they create a custom interior just to please you. You bought a $100 DAP and you think you set on the board of directors. Sell it!

 

[chasolla]

new firmware works fine for me.
Seems nippier.
I like to listen to a podcast or programme once and then delete it straight away, it might be my imagination but it seems a lot less hit and miss/easier hitting the correct part of the screen to delete files now.

I'd like to speak up for this little machine for podcasts/audiobooks.
It is the first machine that I've ever had that remembers your place after you connect it to a computer, even when flashing software, so, for me, it means that I can load it up every morning, listen to stuff in the car and start from just where I last finished.
However, I can only listen to one thing at a time.
I really need bookmarking and then I would also use it for music at work and be able to pick up easily on spoken word programmes for commuting.
My only other request is fast forward so that I can zip through the boring bits/adverts.

These two features would allow the M0 to be my only digital companion.

 

[Rafs]

Our core market is still China and apparently they like these things...

And quick panel, I was talking with designer team about putting it into now playing screen and overall adjusting it to be more useful. Will see how it evolves.
For some reason it's different from quick panels on M2S and M5s, where you swipe from lower edge, he it's simple swipe up. So while it works in main menu and should work as good on now playing screen, it's not possible to put it into submenus, where it would be interfering with scrolling.

Ok on the animations. Guess I'll get used to them anyway. They have a bit of a vibe to early cyanogenmod bootanimations on android, haha.
Quick panel on Now Playing screen would be cool to have, but then the play mode would be showing double (maybe changing the play mode button to EQ or something of the sort could solve it).
Any plans to bring the quick scroll from the far right to folder view?

 

[Test222]

Regarding icons, you have icons on all levels to indicate different things, not sure if it would be possible to have only some of them removed.

But changing their color shouldn't be a problem.

 

[georgelai57]

The most expensive DAP I have ever bought was around USD1,000 and for just one-tenth the price, I have no real complaints about the three MO’s I have.

 

[Shanling]

Well this isn't a phone. This is a very specific device as you've been quick to point out in the past (especially when people have asked for certain features.) And android is a rather mature OS at this point. Yours? Not so much. And as you also have pointed out, you cater quite a bit to a Chinese audience which the vast majority of us are not. Taking all that into
consideration along with not even having the app up and running, I would easily expect 3yrs of firmware updates until your OS is extremely stable, free of bugs and quite mature before you even think of abandoning this device, and that includes the app along with a worldwide market firmware and not a Chinese catered one. As you said, they like certain things, and as you can see from responses here, we don't seem to like what they do. And I wasn't even thinking that was the reason (outside of language) why many of these China made devices have separate firmware for China and the rest of the world. Even games I've played are designed differently for the Chinese market (of course to get them to spend money as they value things differently so the games are designed accordingly). Safe to say, you catering to that market and expecting everyone else to be ok with it doesn't seem to make a lot of sense. I don't think anyone buying this went into it knowing you were steering the design of your firmware towards the Chinese market.

And instead of comparing to phones, why not compare it to actual MP3 players of old. My Cowons got years of support with updates. When I think back, I think my Rio's and Neuros were about the same. Anything less, and you just feed into the environmentally unfriendly trend of things becoming disposable way before their useful life is over. And using Google as an example is not good because Google is going to have their hands full at some point as more and more of their chromebooks get EOL'd with updates. People dropping hundreds of dollars on a chromebook that has a 4yr life span when their windows laptop is six plus years old and still receiving regular updates. And that doesn't matter when you bought it. You could buy a chromebook yesterday that was made three months before, but if its initial release date was three years ago, you could be SOL with updates in a year's time. How's that for a kick in the twigs and berries?

We are small company, dwarf compared to even the smallest phone companies. And that unfortunately limit our resources. I would love to be publishing updates for M0 in 3 years, but at the same time, I understand we will have new devices, new problems, new features demanded by customers to add, that will simply take over by that time. But for now M0 is still going strongly, getting regular updates alongside its bigger brothers.

I think nobody is buying any modern smartphone with expectations that it will be updated for 4 years to come(maybe iPhone?). And there we are talking about devices that need security updates, that needs updates otherwise apps stops working, crucial services stops working, etc. If we stop updating M0 tomorrow, it will still work fully for years to come, satisfying needs of vast majority of users.

Regarding Chinese market, it's simply our biggest market. Also Shanling is all Chinese company, me being only foreigner here, so that can also show in approach of our designers and software team. So yes, some small elements of system will be following little bit more local trends, some features demanded only by few users on international market will be little bit delayed, but otherwise I don't think there are any significant differences. Right now all this talk is just about look of few icons and two animations.

Ok on the animations. Guess I'll get used to them anyway. They have a bit of a vibe to early cyanogenmod bootanimations on android, haha.
Quick panel on Now Playing screen would be cool to have, but then the play mode would be showing double (maybe changing the play mode button to EQ or something of the sort could solve it).
Any plans to bring the quick scroll from the far right to folder view?

We will be playing more with the quick access panel, definitely want to integrate it into now playing screen and adjust items in it.

EQ enabling is one possibility, another is USB mode or gain. These seems to be the more used settings, that are needed more often and can be integrated in this simplified menu. I was personally thinking how could we put there Sleep timer.

But changing their color shouldn't be a problem.

Currently colours for all formats are the same. I told designer to look into possibility to have them separated by format.

 

[Zachik]

Regarding Chinese market, it's simply our biggest market. Also Shanling is all Chinese company, me being only foreigner here, so that can also show in approach of our designers and software team.

Thanks for the tip Frankie - I guess the strategy would be to show your engineers the wonders of audiobooks and podcasts