[JayB18]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drubbing /img/forum/go_quote.gif Look at it this way: He gets heaps of people lobbing onto his forum or calling him up and saying "I want the 650, I've heard its the most awesome headphone going from places like Head fi, and I'm only going to be playing on my PC or portable player without an amp, but it's a really top notch headphone, so, like, it'll really make my player sound super awesome, right? Oh, and I only ever listen to hard core techno and rap. Ok, I'm exaggerating somewhat, but he does get stuff like this all the time. Is he going to recommend the 650? No, because he's giving personalised advice. He gets plenty of people wanting a particular phone - usually a Sennheiser, because it's the best known brand to joe average, not even thinking whether it will suit the choice of music or environment they'll be plugging it into. So he recommends something that will suit them. He would in fact recommend the 650 for someone like yourself who listens to Classical or Jazz. It works. He has a loyal and returning customer base. Not only that, his opinions are also based on what customers tell him, and what products they return for exchange, and why. It's in his business interest to consider what people will like. The difference between his opinion and a forum collective, is he's listened and knows his whole stock. While it's still subjective and certainly not the ultimate authority, it has one person as a fixed reference, as opposed to here, where 50 opinions of 100 different phones are based on any number of permutations of ancillary gear that they've been played on. But this is all great discussion about the Evil Marcus, it sure detracts from the whole point of the thread - which is Senn's grip on the testicles of small Australian retailers.

Yeah. His bashing of Sennheiser comes from both his opinion and other customers as well when both he and the customers have compared them to other headphones. Simply put Sennheisers are not a very good value for the money in Australia and many of there models probably actually sound like crap. People just don't know any better since its all they heard. As for the higher end Sennheisers that are usually positively regarded here, he simply feels they aren't a good value for the money and/or they are mostly only good for jazz,classical,etc.

He will recommend headphones that suit the individual and are a good value in their pricerange. That is great customer service right there.

 

[Ruffle]

I am not surprised...

Headphonic's owner is very open about his dislike for Sennheiser and always referring to them as overrated. I've read rants from him even going as far as saying the build quality of Sennheiser headphones being awful, which I personally think is ludicrous and just full of animosity, not objective at all.

What did he expect? He openly glorifies Alessandro and AT headphones over Sennheiser constantly. I also noticed his attitude toward Sennheiser has spread to his "customer base" that frequent his forums. So in essence he manages a forum where he fosters a mass hatred for Sennheiser.

So yeah in other ways if they said they won't miss him as a dealer, I'd agree with them. It's not as if he is helping to sell their products.

I personally don't think his dislike for Sennheiser is purely rooted in the design or sound of Sennheiser headphones. I think he is just tired of the general public's view of Sennheiser as being the echelon among headphones. He does whatever he can to put them down and glorify the smaller headphone companies. That's his business and if that's the way he wants to run his busiiness, of course he's going to receive attitude from the manufacturers. He gives them attitude as a headphone dealer.

I personally much prefer the reviews of HeadRoom over Marcus, only because Marcus can be too blatant and flat out disrespectful and rude about some headphones. HeadRoom stays more on topic about describing the headphones than spending time giving their biased opinions. HeadRoom doesn't spend enormous amount of time classifying, ranking headphones and determining their overall value as Marcus does. They just tell it how it is and let the users and customers decide for themselves how to rank the headphones.

 

[Ruffle]

On a different note:

I wouldn't be surprised if Sennheiser is just tired of some online retailers selling their products at incredible discount prices. I know two Sennheiser authorized dealers (not-online dealer) referred by Sennheiser USA that sell the HD650 at $499, much closer the the $599 MSRP pricing on Sennheiser USA website. But JR Audio and even HeadRoom sell for $350 or less. Granted price fixing is illegal, but I'm sure a Sennheiser is frustrated with their products being sold online for almost half of the suggested price and far less than the stores. And likewise these stores who do not use a website and just warehouses with no overhead costs that stores suffer from are frustrated also. How can they compete with $350 with free shipping vs $499? I'm guessing the $499 price isn't to rip off the customer, but that's the price for the store to make a decent profit.

Plus these low prices are hurting the perception of these headphones. Head-Fi is a great example of some users referring to HD650 and K701/K702 as mid-fi due to their prices. But since RS1 and GS1000 have such enormous prices they are referred to as audiophile. If I was AKG I'd be pretty miffed and upset. They probably want to do what Grado does, ensuring their authorized dealers only deal within their own country and maintaining the MSRP pricing. Reduce the number of authorized dealers to those who will honor their MSRP pricing and eliminate the discount retailers. Denon it seems has begun to do this as been reading lately of price increases or lack of stock at the discount stores. Guessing Denon told JR hey you want to sell D7000 at $550, then we don't want you as our dealer, or you can sell at the prices we want.

 

[JayB18]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ruffle /img/forum/go_quote.gif I am not surprised... Headphonic's owner is very open about his dislike for Sennheiser and always referring to them as overrated. I've read rants from him even going as far as saying the build quality of Sennheiser headphones being awful, which I personally think is ludicrous and just full of animosity, not objective at all. What did he expect? He openly glorifies Alessandro and AT headphones over Sennheiser constantly. I also noticed his attitude toward Sennheiser has spread to his "customer base" that frequent his forums. So in essence he manages a forum where he fosters a mass hatred for Sennheiser. So yeah in other ways if they said they won't miss him as a dealer, I'd agree with them. It's not as if he is helping to sell their products. I personally don't think his dislike for Sennheiser is purely rooted in the design or sound of Sennheiser headphones. I think he is just tired of the general public's view of Sennheiser as being the echelon among headphones. He does whatever he can to put them down and glorify the smaller headphone companies. That's his business and if that's the way he wants to run his busiiness, of course he's going to receive attitude from the manufacturers. He gives them attitude as a headphone dealer. I personally much prefer the reviews of HeadRoom over Marcus, only because Marcus can be too blatant and flat out disrespectful and rude about some headphones. HeadRoom stays more on topic about describing the headphones than spending time giving their biased opinions. HeadRoom doesn't spend enormous amount of time classifying, ranking headphones and determining their overall value as Marcus does. They just tell it how it is and let the users and customers decide for themselves how to rank the headphones.

He doesn't blatantly hate Sennheiser. He recommends the HD238, H201, and HD215. He even recommends the HD600, HD650 if you have a good amp and listen to mostly classical and jazz. He just feels that with contemporary music they aren't necessarily the best suited,especially in there pricerange (they are way overpriced in AUS, especially after you factor in the price of an amp, source, etc.). His feedback is also somewhat from customers who have heard them alongside other phones.

Id take his and his and customer feedback that have heard many different phones, especially over somewhere like headfi (where people often recommends phones inappropriate for the listener in terms of budget, easiness to drive, etc.)

 

[Ruffle]

Either way I think Grado has been very smart about their relationship with retailers.

Europeans can't buy Grado in US for the lower price. Every authorized dealer I've seen online sell at the same price as the non-online retailers. And because the price of Grados remain at the suggested prices, the perception of the quality and value of Grados remains high among the general public. Maybe some will disagree, but people who may not be as aware of Grado, looking prices will assume they are truly high quality, audiophile grade headphones, as they are regarded by many Grado owners.

And I think overall satisfaction of Grado owners remains high among RS1 and up owners. They spent good money at those prices. And anyone else who wants to own a brand new pair must do so also.

K701 owners who initially paid the $450 + pricing probably not happy that new owners buying at almost $200 less. Not cool don't you think?

 

[estreeter]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ruffle /img/forum/go_quote.gif I've read rants from him even going as far as saying the build quality of Sennheiser headphones being awful, which I personally think is ludicrous and just full of animosity, not objective at all.

And that would be different to the barrage of criticism that Sennheiser have received from Head-Fiers and professsional reviewers over the build quality on a recent headphone release ? Dig up recent threads on the HD800, their most expensive headphone, to see how underwhelmed many are with the finish on these much-hyped phones.

I'm not arguing that Marcus wears his heart on his sleeve, but disagreements over the respective merits of anything in audio seems to be par for the course : the difference is public hype vs private reality. Few resellers are prepared to make their opinions public.

Marcus has posted that he listens to two headphones at home - neither is Alessandro/A-T - but he rarely recommends the K701 or the harder to drive Beyers on his forum simply because he knows what a hornets nest amp recommendations are, and how few of us are willing to spend twice the cost of the headphones on the amp needed to drive them. You can find all of this in various posts on the site.

Finally, this is the experience a consumer gets in most of the chain stores mentioned in Marcus original post:

- walk into store, try to find headphones amidst CDs, DVDs, toasters and cheap Taiwanese CD-Radios...
- find a single column jammed with Skullcandy/Philips and TDK shockers
- next to the column, a miserably small range of Senn phones on the bottom row, seemingly jammed in wherever they will fit
- try to attract the interest of a disinterested salesperson to see if they will come down from the grossly inflated price on the sticker.
- dont bother asking about any model that they dont actually have in the store, and absolutely dont ask for feedback re the performance of the headphones
- the last time I asked for the opportunity to audition a pair of fullsize cans at one of these stores, I was told that it was against Health Department regulations. This is total BS for cans - IEMs are a different story.

All up, I'd rather shop at Target. I dont expect the kids there to have any product knowledge, and I know most of the stock will be crap.

 

[estreeter]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ruffle /img/forum/go_quote.gif K701 owners who initially paid the $450 + pricing probably not happy that new owners buying at almost $200 less. Not cool don't you think?

Seriously, do you work for AKG, or are you more concerned with the 'status' implied by owning expensive goodies ? Those sentiments are similar to some of the crap I see from Mac owners who have paid Apple's RRP only to see that someone else got a better deal elsewhere, and then bleat about the 'dimunition of a premium product' !

Unless they are selling fake/refurb/faulty headphones at a discount, anyone who can provide the consumer with a cheaper price is doing us all a favour *if* they are prepared to honour returns and assist with warranty claims : that is one area where the established retailers may have a valid issue with some of the fly-by-night internet operators, but there are hundreds (if not thousands) of Head-Fiers who happily by from e-bay every day of the week, stating that even if you do have a bad experience you are still coming out ahead over time. AKG/Sennheiser/Grado still get their initial sale price, but you arent paying for the multitude of costs borne by a brick and mortar retailer. There is absolutely nothing, AFAIK, to stop AKG or Sennheiser establishing their own electronic store : Apple certainly dont seem to have a problem competing with their own resellers.

As for the snob value of owning a pair of K701s, please get over yourself. Compared to the money consumers routinely drop on things like flatscreen TVs and HT amps, the 701s are dirt cheap : the pain comes when you realise that the amp needed to do justice to them isn't quite so cheap.

 

[Currawong]

Quote:

Originally Posted by estreeter /img/forum/go_quote.gif Seriously, do you work for AKG, or are you more concerned with the 'status' implied by owning expensive goodies ? Those sentiments are similar to some of the crap I see from Mac owners who have paid Apple's RRP only to see that someone else got a better deal elsewhere, and then bleat about the 'dimunition of a premium product' !

10 points for your flame-war-starting effort.

Apple were clever and saw the writing on the wall early. As soon as online retailers became a reality, they dropped retailer margins to 8% to prevent a price war starting on their products (forcing retailers to make a profit by selling accessories or AppleCare) and opened their own online and physical stores to overcome sometimes major problems with how their products were being sold by retailers. By the way, you forget that you're paying for the operating system when you buy Apple, not just the computer.

Now, of course, this kind of thing wouldn't work with headphone manufacturers the same way, so they are forcing dealers into agreements that stop the discount wars.

The situation in Australia is one of retailers not catching up with the internet + little interest in high-end headphones. For example, there's a whole one thread on headphones on Stereo Net Australia, with very occasional other threads, but overall, next to nothing. Add up the exchange rate, low sales, little interest and high shipping costs and you have a close to dead market in high-end cans.

 

[Drubbing]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ruffle /img/forum/go_quote.gif Headphonic's owner is very open about his dislike for Sennheiser and always referring to them as overrated. .

You just don't want to get it, do you?

Sennheiser prices in Aus are inflated by virtue of distance and reluctance of Senn to provide price breaks to a smaller market. We pay more.

So a number of Senn's well regarded products are less VFM than other options that can be had for more competitive prices.

It's like the Grado/Alessandro thing; Why would I fly 5 hours to Australia's only Grado dealer to pay $300 for a SR125, when I can get an MS1 delivered for less than half of that?

I've met Marcus and we've chewed the fat on this. He doesn't hate Sennheiser (and while their sound isn't his thing, he'll recommend them for someone who will like them), that idea is perpetuated by forum's like this that get all protective about the warm fuzzy feelings they have about Senn.

 

[chinesekiwi]

Well, we do have representatives from Sennheiser UK and Sennheiser US on these forums ('TheDeliveryMan' being the representative for Sennheiser US) so maybe they can shine some light / PR repair.

Shameful really. I have little doubt as well that this will affect prices her ein NZ as well.

 

[Thrawn7]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drubbing /img/forum/go_quote.gif So a number of Senn's well regarded products are less VFM than other options that can be had for more competitive prices.

Yes, like..

Beyer DT880 for $600
AKG K701 for $580

Those don't look competitive to me... Though AD900 is the one exception that seems to be price competitive in Australia (but not really in the same class as HD600/650 either, totally different phones).

I fully agree we get ripped off in Oz, but the fact is that it is not limited to Senns.. its for most things. I don't think its particularly fair to single out Senns specifically (price wise anyway, price fixing is another matter).

As for me, I pretty much don't buy anything locally/new because of this.

 

[estreeter]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thrawn7 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Yes, like.. Beyer DT880 for $600 AKG K701 for $580 Those don't look competitive to me...

Thrawn, I have bought headphones from Marcus and I have bought headphones elsewhere - I dont expect him to have the cheapest prices on everything he stocks - but overall I think his prices are very good for Oz. The MS-1 is particularly attractive, as are the DJ1 and the Shures : Head-Fiers from other countries would look at our prices and faint, but compared to the markup we are subjected to elsewhere (particularly in brick-and-mortar stores), I find his prices a lot more palatable.

Personally, I have very little interest in either of the phones you quote above, but I'm confident that I will be able to find any number of high-end phones in Singapore when I visit in December. Marcus doesnt have a Luger aimed at anyone's private parts - I cant say the same for Syntec.

 

[pp312]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drubbing /img/forum/go_quote.gif Ok, I'm exaggerating somewhat, but he does get stuff like this all the time. Is he going to recommend the 650? No, because he's giving personalised advice. He gets plenty of people wanting a particular phone - usually a Sennheiser, because it's the best known brand to joe average, not even thinking whether it will suit the choice of music or environment they'll be plugging it into. So he recommends something that will suit them. He would in fact recommend the 650 for someone like yourself who listens to Classical or Jazz. It works. He has a loyal and returning customer base.

The real problem with Marcus' opinions is that they're not confined to the forum; they're right there plastered on his product description like fact rather than opinion. His assessment of the 595 is odd to say the least; I have not read anything like it anywhere, even from users. The 595 harsh? No way, not on any type of music. But how many potential buyers have gone to his website to check his 595 price, read that "review" and decided on something else? No wonder Sennheiser aren't in love with him. I'm surprised they haven't sued him for defamation of Sennheiser character.

 

[chinesekiwi]

^

To defend Marcus, who I have a lot of respect for, that opinion is based off a lot of people's opinions. Also, since when aren't we allowed to post honest opinions on products?

Also pp312, don't be a lawyer. Stick to your day job.

If you actually read the actual thread @ Headphonic....

Here:
Headphonic Forums | Australian Headphone Forums • View topic - Sennheiser Shenannigans

Don't want to stir the pot but really Marcus is right, the FOTM of Head-fi can get silly at times:

Quote:

Also, for the record, my product descriptions are often modified, or written, after customer feedback. If I get a lot of people making similar comments about a model, I often mention it in product descriptions. Fact: the HD650 is dark, laid back and detached sounding. Out of all the readily available high end headphones, the HD650 is the NUMBER ONE model we have people come into the store to try and upgrade/enhance or make sound "more interesting and less boring". Fact: We've had multiple people, including a sound engineer for a large label, and various producers, describe the HD595 bass to sound like "an incorrectly ported subwoofer" on some tracks. Not my words, theirs. These comments came unprompted, but I did in fact agree with them. Fact: After reading glowing reviews for the AKG K271S and thinking that I may have had a faulty unit based on how my first pair sounded, I sent them back and got a new pair from the supplier which sounded exactly the same, so for several months I asked each customer who came into the store to tell me what they thought of them, before and after trying other models. Not one person liked the way they sounded. The majority of people that ordered them sent them back unhappy with their performance (again after buying them based on reviews from Head-Fi). Anyway, it's beside the point - I don't care if people disagree with my assessment or views of a specific model, my job is to TRY and recommend something without people even hearing it, so I do my best job of doing so and I don't always get it right, but if I don't get it right first time at least it gives me a point of reference for future recommendations. I'm surprised that people think it's BAD that I don't just "go with the flow" and say "just buy the best Sennheiser model you can afford" like a lot of people do, or "just buy X model because that's what I bought" which is what goes on a lot at Head-Fi, or "buy the brand new latest model from X because it blows everything out of the water" (this month) etc. Geeze, how DARE a reseller actually try to give people honest advice and recommendations! The nerve

If I were to 'take sides', it would be Marcus'.

 

[Thrawn7]

Believe it or not, i also have bought a headphone from Marcus (and happy with the service provided).

I fully agree that Marcus' prices are among the cheapest in Oz (but not the world, due to most Oz distributors).

I was just commenting that Sennheisers nearest competitors are pretty much equally overpriced, so you can't really claim that Senns suck based on the Oz price 'mark-up'.

By the way, I don't think the HD-650 is the best thing since sliced bread. Too much pros and cons of different sets, each is good at different things. HD-650 isn't even my favourite at the moment, its too coloured and hard to control. The difference is that I can say this publicly and nothing will happen (as a non Syntec affiliate). With Marcus, he's in a conflict of interest and I see no problem with Syntec refusing to deal with him further unless his behaviour changes.

There has been comments in this thread pointing out that Marcus is within his rights to say whatever he wants about any product (true or not) and the distributor should just grin and bear it. I don't think thats true.

I don't want to repeat myself anymore.. so this is the last post I'll put on this topic.