[Beagle]

And the usual hype is constructive?
I bought a pair headphones or two based on hype here only to realise they were utter crap.

That's a no-no. Hope you learned from your error in judgement. It is your ears that matter here. I realize it is difficult in the best of times to be able to audition headphones, but try to find a dealer who will allow a return if you are not satisfied, assuming you cannot listen first. If you must, gather opinions from many different headphone forums and hi-fi mags. There should be an overall theme or common denominator which would potentially help you with your decision.

 

[Hifiearspeakers]

That's a no-no. Hope you learned from your error in judgement. It is your ears that matter here. I realize it is difficult in the best of times to be able to audition headphones, but try to find a dealer who will allow a return if you are not satisfied, assuming you cannot listen first. If you must, gather opinions from many different headphone forums and hi-fi mags. There should be an overall theme or common denominator which would potentially help you with your decision.

Damn Beagle. Why are you making so much sense all of a sudden? Are you feeling ok?

 

[Beagle]

Damn Beagle. Why are you making so much sense all of a sudden? Are you feeling ok?

No. Flu. Aching back muscles. But the drugs appear to be working wonders.

 

[Naim.F.C]

As far as I’m aware nobody here knows what it cost Sennheiser to research and develop this phone nor does anybody know what it costs to produce or how many they would expect to sell at varying pricepoints. Only thing we can be reasonably certain about is that Sennheiser has priced it to make money unless it totally bombs and nobody want to buy it. All else is baseless speculation and nobody has heard the actual selling product so nobody will know what it ends up being.

That is correct, we do not know specifically what it costs, but that does not mean we cannot reasonably discuss value for money or potential costs based on previous releases. The HD800 and HD800S by virtue will have been priced and sold at a profit, so the notion that the HD820 cost twice the amount to manufacture as either previous headphone can easily be challenged on a common sense basis. Generally (though not always), high-end products actually tend to already fall in the bracket of higher markups and margins and I suspect the HD800 was no different.

There are ultimately multi-million-pound firms whose very job is to assume, predict, calculate or guess BoM (bill of materials) and/or manufacturing costs of products, so there is analysis, expertise and data in this field even without specifics. For example, numerous analysis firms have put Beats headphones BoM at around $14-$18 per unit, despite these same headphones actually retailing for a whopping $300. Now we can't know how much Beats spend on marketing and R&D, but right off the bat, it is abundantly clear that the headphones represent a rather terrible value proposition in relation to their manufacturing cost.

I also don't really see what relevance how headphones sound have to the discussion of value proposition compared to actual manufacturing costs or margins. Sonic preference is a very subjective thing, as is value-proposition in a way. The HD820 might be the best sounding headphones in the world for someone, but that doesn't mean they are necessarily worth $20,000, or even double what the previous headphones sold for, or that they represent a good value proposition. Ultimately pricing of headphones coupled with ever-growing margins, really shouldn't be based on some subjective whims. Such a trend is bad for us consumers and is ultimately contributing to us paying more for less.

Based off of the HD800 and HD800S, it's clear that Sennheiser is taking slight advantage of their consumer base with the release and pricing of the HD820 and I'm confident that Sennheiser will be making a much higher margin of profit per unit on the HD820 compared to the previous two headphones.

 

[franz12]

I assume you just bought the Focal Clear?

yes, it is coming wed

 

[nc8000]

That is correct, we do not know specifically what it costs, but that does not mean we cannot reasonably discuss value for money or potential costs based on previous releases. The HD800 and HD800S by virtue will have been priced and sold at a profit, so the notion that the HD820 cost twice the amount to manufacture as either previous headphone can easily be challenged on a common sense basis. Generally (though not always), high-end products actually tend to already fall in the bracket of higher markups and margins and I suspect the HD800 was no different.

There are ultimately multi-million-pound firms whose very job is to assume, predict, calculate or guess BoM (bill of materials) and/or manufacturing costs of products, so there is analysis, expertise and data in this field even without specifics. For example, numerous analysis firms have put Beats headphones BoM at around $14-$18 per unit, despite these same headphones actually retailing for a whopping $300. Now we can't know how much Beats spend on marketing and R&D, but right off the bat, it is abundantly clear that the headphones represent a rather terrible value proposition in relation to their manufacturing cost.

I also don't really see what relevance how headphones sound have to the discussion of value proposition compared to actual manufacturing costs or margins. Sonic preference is a very subjective thing, as is value-proposition in a way. The HD820 might be the best sounding headphones in the world for someone, but that doesn't mean they are necessarily worth $20,000, or even double what the previous headphones sold for, or that they represent a good value proposition. Ultimately pricing of headphones coupled with ever-growing margins, really shouldn't be based on some subjective whims. Such a trend is bad for us consumers and is ultimately contributing to us paying more for less.

Based off of the HD800 and HD800S, it's clear that Sennheiser is taking slight advantage of their consumer base with the release and pricing of the HD820 and I'm confident that Sennheiser will be making a much higher margin of profit per unit on the HD820 compared to the previous two headphones.

Value and hence value proposition is always going to be individual and subjective, there is no univarsal objective way of defining the value of a given object. I find the Sony Z1R (similar price to HD820) to be great value as it gives me huge pleasure for many hours a week and I expect it to continue to do so for many years to come. Others will certainly not consider it to be great value.

Price on the other hand is totally objective and is calculated based on research and development cost, production cost, marketing cost, distribution cost plus markup at the various levels in the sale chain and we can be sure the Sennheiser are pricing them to make profit at each level, but how big that profit is we don’t know (or if anybody here does know I doubt very much that they are allowed to tell).

 

[QueueCumber]

Subscribed hoping to hear more early impressions from CES. I didn’t expect to get spammed with bickering...

 

[dontfeedphils]

Subscribed hoping to hear more early impressions from CES. I didn’t expect to get spammed with bickering...

Welcome to the internet! You must be new here.

 

[raypin]

Mm...it will die down once the 820 is released in the wild (in good numbers)..... Same type of bickering happened when the Focal Utopia was revealed. So, just relax, eat some popcorn and enjoy the occasionsal fireworks.

 

[QueueCumber]

Mm...it will die down once the 820 is released in the wild (in good numbers)..... Same type of bickering happened when the Focal Utopia was revealed. So, just relax, eat some popcorn and enjoy the occasionsal fireworks.

Just turned off persistent email notification. Now it should be better. I was getting an email anytime anyone responded to the thread and it was clogging my inbox.

 

[headr]

Generally (though not always), high-end products actually tend to already fall in the bracket of higher markups and margins and I suspect the HD800 was no different.

This isn't even true, especially when you get to the flagship absolute most expensive products. Famous high end flagship loss leaders are everywhere, including the original Chevrolet Corvette. The Lexus LFA was priced at 375,000 and Lexus lost money on each one. Is Sennheiser even making a profit with the Orpheus at 50,000 ? Hard to say, it's a statement product. Paying Axel Grell and a team even a couple months of salaries to research and develop it, not to mention the custom manufacturing line required, probably means they have to sell more than their capacity just to make up for the operating and capital expenditure.

Headphones and most other manufactured goods benefit the most from economics of scale. If Sennheiser can sell more, they make more profit, because their manufacturing chains are more optimised. Considering the most common usage of gorilla glass at the moment is cell phones, and they are manufacturing a custom glass exclusively for the HD 820, you can bet that has huge effect on the profit margins of the product, and also speaks to the no compromise design goal of the HD 820 in the first place. The price is a happy medium between selling units and maintaining a profit margin. If Sennheiser could price it for less, they would sell much more units, could order the gorilla glass in higher bulk quantities (along with other components) and potentially make even more profit. That's how this generally works.

As I've said the entire thread, Sennheiser has already proven themselves to respect the price to performance ratio for their customers. Each subsequent headphone release tends to maintain the same or even lower prices compared to previous versions. The most rational expectation to have regarding the HD 820 is that they will continue this tradition, unless they prove otherwise.

It really does come across as many people are hoping this headphone fails, either because they have already determined it is too expensive before even listening to it based on wild assumptions, or that they have an ingrained prejudice against closed headphones and hate the thought that a closed headphone occupies the top spot of Sennheiser's line up.

It amounts to a bunch of negative nancy wishful thinking, which is absurd considering the headphone is only in prototype form, all initial impressions have been extremely positive, and Sennheiser as a company have proven themselves over and over.

The entire negative nancy atmosphere that some are perpetuating has no place in the conversation here, in my opinion. We should focus on the initial impressions, and stick to the facts we already know. Some excitement about Sennheiser releasing a new flagship is justified, IMO, but pages and pages of complaining about price, assuming this headphone is a rip off, wild assumptions about the lack of product development, and so on, are just thread pollution.

It's impossible to talk about any theoretical value proposition before the headphone is even released. If 2500 is more than you care to spend on headphones, which is completely understandable, perhaps you shouldn't be entering a conversation about $2500 headphones. Plenty of people have spent more and are completely satisfied. No one is forcing anyone to buy anything.

 

[franz12]

This isn't even true, especially when you get to the flagship absolute most expensive products. Famous high end flagship loss leaders are everywhere, including the original Chevrolet Corvette. The Lexus LFA was priced at 375,000 and Lexus lost money on each one. Is Sennheiser even making a profit with the Orpheus at 50,000 ? Hard to say, it's a statement product. Paying Axel Grell and a team even a couple months of salaries to research and develop it, not to mention the custom manufacturing line required, probably means they have to sell more than their capacity just to make up for the operating and capital expenditure.

Headphones and most other manufactured goods benefit the most from economics of scale. If Sennheiser can sell more, they make more profit, because their manufacturing chains are more optimised. Considering the most common usage of gorilla glass at the moment is cell phones, and they are manufacturing a custom glass exclusively for the HD 820, you can bet that has huge effect on the profit margins of the product, and also speaks to the no compromise design goal of the HD 820 in the first place. The price is a happy medium between selling units and maintaining a profit margin. If Sennheiser could price it for less, they would sell much more units, could order the gorilla glass in higher bulk quantities (along with other components) and potentially make even more profit. That's how this generally works.

As I've said the entire thread, Sennheiser has already proven themselves to respect the price to performance ratio for their customers. Each subsequent headphone release tends to maintain the same or even lower prices compared to previous versions. The most rational expectation to have regarding the HD 820 is that they will continue this tradition, unless they prove otherwise.

It really does come across as many people are hoping this headphone fails, either because they have already determined it is too expensive before even listening to it based on wild assumptions, or that they have an ingrained prejudice against closed headphones and hate the thought that a closed headphone occupies the top spot of Sennheiser's line up.

It amounts to a bunch of negative nancy wishful thinking, which is absurd considering the headphone is only in prototype form, all initial impressions have been extremely positive, and Sennheiser as a company have proven themselves over and over.

The entire negative nancy atmosphere that some are perpetuating has no place in the conversation here, in my opinion. We should focus on the initial impressions, and stick to the facts we already know. Some excitement about Sennheiser releasing a new flagship is justified, IMO, but pages and pages of complaining about price, assuming this headphone is a rip off, wild assumptions about the lack of product development, and so on, are just thread pollution.

It's impossible to talk about any theoretical value proposition before the headphone is even released. If 2500 is more than you care to spend on headphones, which is completely understandable, perhaps you shouldn't be entering a conversation about $2500 headphones. Plenty of people have spent more and are completely satisfied. No one is forcing anyone to buy anything.

I have been beaten twice by senn, IE800 ($800) and HD800S ($1700). Since then, I am wary of senn's high-end products. Though, I do think senn's low-end products have good values (hd598 ~$100 and hd6xx ~$200)

 

[Beagle]

This isn't even true, especially when you get to the flagship absolute most expensive products. Famous high end flagship loss leaders are everywhere, including the original Chevrolet Corvette. The Lexus LFA was priced at 375,000 and Lexus lost money on each one. Is Sennheiser even making a profit with the Orpheus at 50,000 ? Hard to say, it's a statement product. Paying Axel Grell and a team even a couple months of salaries to research and develop it, not to mention the custom manufacturing line required, probably means they have to sell more than their capacity just to make up for the operating and capital expenditure.

Headphones and most other manufactured goods benefit the most from economics of scale. If Sennheiser can sell more, they make more profit, because their manufacturing chains are more optimised. Considering the most common usage of gorilla glass at the moment is cell phones, and they are manufacturing a custom glass exclusively for the HD 820, you can bet that has huge effect on the profit margins of the product, and also speaks to the no compromise design goal of the HD 820 in the first place. The price is a happy medium between selling units and maintaining a profit margin. If Sennheiser could price it for less, they would sell much more units, could order the gorilla glass in higher bulk quantities (along with other components) and potentially make even more profit. That's how this generally works.

As I've said the entire thread, Sennheiser has already proven themselves to respect the price to performance ratio for their customers. Each subsequent headphone release tends to maintain the same or even lower prices compared to previous versions. The most rational expectation to have regarding the HD 820 is that they will continue this tradition, unless they prove otherwise.

It really does come across as many people are hoping this headphone fails, either because they have already determined it is too expensive before even listening to it based on wild assumptions, or that they have an ingrained prejudice against closed headphones and hate the thought that a closed headphone occupies the top spot of Sennheiser's line up.

It amounts to a bunch of negative nancy wishful thinking, which is absurd considering the headphone is only in prototype form, all initial impressions have been extremely positive, and Sennheiser as a company have proven themselves over and over.

The entire negative nancy atmosphere that some are perpetuating has no place in the conversation here, in my opinion. We should focus on the initial impressions, and stick to the facts we already know. Some excitement about Sennheiser releasing a new flagship is justified, IMO, but pages and pages of complaining about price, assuming this headphone is a rip off, wild assumptions about the lack of product development, and so on, are just thread pollution.

It's impossible to talk about any theoretical value proposition before the headphone is even released. If 2500 is more than you care to spend on headphones, which is completely understandable, perhaps you shouldn't be entering a conversation about $2500 headphones. Plenty of people have spent more and are completely satisfied. No one is forcing anyone to buy anything.

I certainly don't want it to fail and I expect it to be excellent. I don't think Sennheiser has ever put out a weak product on a price/performance ratio. And they are always consistent and generally maintain excellent quality control. I've heard several HD600's (and other Senn models) and they all had the same sound and consistency of matching channels.

Perhaps the main quibble is that it sometimes seems that very expensive headphones are now in vogue and every manufacturer is coming forth with "here is our offering" for that price bracket, without substantial sonic improvement justification. But again, it's subjective...and what you want to spend, and if you feel your got value for your money.

 

[Hifiearspeakers]

I certainly don't want it to fail and I expect it to be excellent. I don't think Sennheiser has ever put out a weak product on a price/performance ratio. And they are always consistent and generally maintain excellent quality control. I've heard several HD600's (and other Senn models) and they all had the same sound and consistency of matching channels.

Perhaps the main quibble is that it sometimes seems that very expensive headphones are now in vogue and every manufacturer is coming forth with "here is our offering" for that price bracket, without substantial sonic improvement justification. But again, it's subjective...and what you want to spend, and if you feel your got value for your money.

I agree with this too! But I’d add that Hifiman and Audeze are more guilty here than Sennheiser. Time will tell though.

 

[mochi01]

Flagship headphone prices have skyrocketed lately, I don't remember which manufacturer started this trend, but things have really gone out of hand. I remember when I bought my first "high-end" headphones almost twenty years ago (1999 if I remember well), Sennheiser HD600, which were their flagship product, and I paid the equivalent to 180 euros for them. They are still in good shape as of today after exchanging pads and headband and I still enjoy them very much.

Now dynamic/planar flagships range from 1000€ to 4000€, making something like the HD800 almost seem cheap. HD820 seems nothing more than a nice looking closed back variant with cool touches like the glass covers, but these highlight the current trend of ever increasing prices for minor (if even present) improvements in sound in the headphone enthusiast market.

Just think about what speakers can be bought for less than 2000€ (per pair), for example Focal Aria, for even less B&W 683, and these are offerings from well known manufacturers, there are good and cheap offerings from lesser known brands, so you can get a very nice pair of speakers and receiver/amplifier for 2000€.

Compare the required materials and effort required to build such speakers to that of headphones, and give it a thought. I understand that over 1000€ headphones are more of a niche product, but even then in my opinion the performance/price ratio is ever decreasing with the current trend of prices.