Sennheiser HD820
Jan 15, 2018 at 9:36 PM Post #601 of 4,357
To me, it looks like a new (or old) strategy from a large manufacturer like senn and focal. Offer a new product with a high mark-up and sell a first few thousands to people who can't wait, and recoup whatever r&d costs and win. Think about focal utopia, which sold at a deep discount after a year.

Indeed, there are some people who are impatient enough who found themselves taking a substantial loss after a year. Of course, costs are no object for some people with deep pockets. Well, we might need to learn to be patient including myself, otherwise we will be broke.
I suppose it can be a potential win-win for non-early adopters. If a new costly flagship sells in a large quantities, there will be a good number of them on the used market over time. If it does not sell well but is manufactured in fairly large numbers, there will be lots of them eventually discounted by retailers so they can make room for it's replacement.
 
Jan 15, 2018 at 10:27 PM Post #603 of 4,357
You can bet that it was a very bad decision by "the worlds best headphone manufacturer" to include gorilla glass in the HD820's design and that regardless of how the headphone sounds, it will be an epic failure financially for Sennheiser, in the long run.
They could've just designed a normal closed-back headphone that would've cost less to make whilst possibly sounding better, but no, Sennheiser like to show off. More of these kind of decisions could be their downfall in years to come..

Mm...Sennheiser already sells the HD 630VB (list price: USD 499.00) closed-back with variable bass for the “normal” market. So, for Sennheiser to create the HD 820 to fill a gaping hole in their product line-up is laudable and defensible. It caters to the high-end, closed-back market segment. It is their answer to the Sony Z1R, Audeze LCD XC, Mr. Speakers Ether Flow C etc. If you look at the product portfolio, Sennheiser is all over the place, from the low-end mass market headphones (as low as usd 50.00) to the mid-fi (the Momentums etc.) to the high-end (the 800 series including the 820) to the ultra high-end (the HE 1). They have blanketed the entire headphone industry. They have literally dozens of headphone models to cater to every whim, need or want of every headphone user out there. I expect Sennheiser to do the same for the in-ear market in the future. I’d love for Sennheiser to up its game in in-ears monitors, perhaps even the CIEM segment (very long shot but still possible). Sony pioneered in that move by creating in 2014 Just Ear ciems ( https://www.sony.co.jp/Products/justear/ ). Unfortunately, it is a Japan-only product.
 
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Jan 15, 2018 at 10:42 PM Post #604 of 4,357
A Ford Focus RS, which has a 2.3ltr V4 345bhp engine, does 0-60 in around 5 seconds, a top speed of 167mph, has a fairly ho hum interior, sells for what, £35k? The new 2018 Aston Martin Vantage, which looks absolutely incredible, has a kerb weight of 1530kg, a 4.0ltr 500+bhp AMG V8 engine, stunning design and interior with carbon fibre galore, a 0-60 time of just 3.6 seconds, a top speed of 195mph, sells for £120k. So it's 3.4x the cost of a Ford Focus RS, but what you're getting for that difference is pretty massive.

my car! no AUX in though. do you think the Aston Martin has an AUX in for my MojoPoly? :)

I'm extremely interested to see how the HD820 compares to the MDR-Z1R sonically.

very curious about this too as I was prepared to purchase a Z1R and then Senn went and announced the HD820. do you think it’s worth waiting?!
 
Jan 15, 2018 at 10:47 PM Post #605 of 4,357
my car! no AUX in though. do you think the Aston Martin has an AUX in for my MojoPoly? :)

very curious about this too as I was prepared to purchase a Z1R and then Senn went and announced the HD820. do you think it’s worth waiting?!

No Aux seems like a strange omission. Personally I just use USB or Bluetooth in mine, though I probably really should sort something a bit more audiophile since they have Aux.

Regarding waiting, I suppose you might as well wait at this point to hear comparisons and impressions from both, though I doubt the first few months of impressions will all be especially useful, flavour of the month, new product hype and all that.
 
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Jan 16, 2018 at 12:05 AM Post #606 of 4,357
And did you honestly, really ask if the €50,000 Orpheus is profitable for Sennheiser? I take back my previous post, I actually have two bridges to sell you. They are producing 250 of them per annum. Provided they're confident they'll sell them all, that means they'll be taking revenue of around €12.5 MILLION per annum just on the Orpheus alone. The fact that you think they might be loss leaders is genuinely laughable to me.

First of all, I think you are way off on your sales expectations. Being familiar with some other high end gear, like the Fostex HP-V8, original Orpheus production, etc. - these things tend to sell in the tens/hundreds. I believe Fostex made about ~30 total HP-V8, it took Sennheiser years to sell the original 300 unit Orpheus at half the price (including inflation). Once you get into tens of thousands of dollars, your market size is very small.

That said, I think you are doubly unfamiliar with costs associated with paying for research and development. Even if on the conservative side, it only took about 10 man years of development effort to come up with the HE 1060 - we are talking maybe a team of 5 over a couple years - that's already a million in salaries alone given a conservative estimate of 100,000/yr blended average salaries. Not to mention, Sennheiser invested a lot in marketing as it is a statement product, promotional materials, etc. Perhaps up to 2 million budgeted for that alone.

Let's also consider the BoM + manufacturing cost to be about 10k, given the custom marble enclosure, an extremely high end totally custom tube amplifier (on par with things like the HP-V8 which retailed for 10 grand, almost assuredly a money losing proposition for Fostex), and dedicated custom manufacturing for electrostatic components which share absolutely nothing with anything else they make.

These are very very conservative estimates.

So they would need to sell about 66 of these things just to break even. I doubt they will sell that many (given the sales rate of the original Orpheus + the 2x price differential). I think a more likely total production run number is closer to half (probably much less) - 150 units.

But if my estimates are conservative, and I think they are, I doubt even if they sell 150 will they recoup their costs. Alex Grell mentioned the Orpheus development took upwards of 10 years, and started with 5 engineers. 5 engineers + Alex as product manager = 60 man years of investment (about right by my guess, if we include ebbs and flows in development and a mad rush of a much larger team towards launch). If we double our salary estimate (take 20 years instead of 60), double our marketing estimate (4 million of marketing for a flagship halo product - yet right), and double the BoM/manufacturing cost (20k per unit on a almost entirely hand built custom manufacturing with almost zero shared components), you will not recoup your investment even with half the Orpheus HE90 units sold (you'd need to sell 166).

The point of a halo product like the HE-1 isn't profit, but rather to make a statement and attract people to buy other headphones that you make. How many people read about the HE-1 and decided to try high end headphones like the HD 600? That is priceless to Sennheiser, as those customers turn into life long fans.

Gorilla glass in mobile phones is in BoM analyst reports as costing around $3 per unit. Even third party vendors sell genuine replacement Gorilla Glass for around $15, and that's for large 6+" pieces. Given that Sennheiser will likely be producing a few thousand of these HD820 units, even on custom glass pieces you can bet the manufacturering cost will barely make a dent to the overall margin of the product.

This is a surprising comment from you if you are familiar with manufacturing. Phones have standard sized screens and standard requirements for fitting into that form factor. Flat, rectangular. Corning measures these kind of unit sales in the billions. How many of those applications are convex, spherical, shaped in a 3-d pane, and meet the size standards of the HD 820, in the application that Sennheiser uses it? Zero. Sennheiser's couple of hundred units will mean Corning needs a dedicated manufacturing line, dedicated training, and dedicated expertise in manufacturing what? 300 units? Assuming that is in any way equivalent to overstock sold by third parties is absurd. It's almost like saying the windshield in the Ford GT uses gorilla glass, so you'd only spend max 15$ on a replacement windshield. (For the record, a replacement Aston Martin windshield will run you about 4 grand, I imagine the Ford GT custom gorilla glass panel is quite a bit more).
 
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Jan 16, 2018 at 12:15 AM Post #607 of 4,357
I think the important thing you're missing here is context. People aren't going on Aston Martin forums complaining about the price compared to a Ford Focus because technologically and engineering wise an Aston Martin is literally orders of magnitude more sophisticated and advanced than any Ford Focus.

Meh, I don't agree. They both use internal combustion engines slightly tweaked. What's the big deal? How does Aston get away with charging so much? How about I log into a car forum, go to a Aston Martin thread, and start telling everybody how their car isn't worth the price. I don't even need to drive it. That's my opinion after all, and I feel pretty strongly that those who paid for an Aston Martin got ripped off, so I should continually let them know how I feel. You are sounding like a corporate apologist for Aston Martin right now.

See the similarities?

Regardless of what you think about the value proposition, putting in your opinion before you have even heard the headphone (not to mention the headphone itself is still in prototype form), and polluting the thread with comments about your opinion on said value proposition while calling everyone who disagrees a "corporate apologist" is absurd.

This is a headphone forum. We generally get excited about new products from Sennheiser. Sennheiser as a company generally respects the value proposition it gives to customers throughout their lines. There is nothing more that needs to be said until someone actually hears the headphone itself.
 
Jan 16, 2018 at 1:09 AM Post #608 of 4,357
First of all, I think you are way off on your sales expectations. Being familiar with some other high end gear, like the Fostex HP-V8, original Orpheus production, etc. - these things tend to sell in the tens/hundreds. I believe Fostex made about ~30 total HP-V8, it took Sennheiser years to sell the original 300 unit Orpheus at half the price (including inflation). Once you get into tens of thousands of dollars, your market size is very small.

That said, I think you are doubly unfamiliar with costs associated with paying for research and development. Even if on the conservative side, it only took about 10 man years of development effort to come up with the HE 1060 - we are talking maybe a team of 5 over a couple years - that's already a million in salaries alone given a conservative estimate of 100,000/yr blended average salaries. Not to mention, Sennheiser invested a lot in marketing as it is a statement product, promotional materials, etc. Perhaps up to 2 million budgeted for that alone.

Let's also consider the BoM + manufacturing cost to be about 10k, given the custom marble enclosure, an extremely high end totally custom tube amplifier (on par with things like the HP-V8 which retailed for 10 grand, almost assuredly a money losing proposition for Fostex), and dedicated custom manufacturing for electrostatic components which share absolutely nothing with anything else they make.

These are very very conservative estimates.

So they would need to sell about 66 of these things just to break even. I doubt they will sell that many (given the sales rate of the original Orpheus + the 2x price differential). I think a more likely total production run number is closer to half (probably much less) - 150 units.

But if my estimates are conservative, and I think they are, I doubt even if they sell 150 will they recoup their costs. Alex Grell mentioned the Orpheus development took upwards of 10 years, and started with 5 engineers. 5 engineers + Alex as product manager = 60 man years of investment (about right by my guess, if we include ebbs and flows in development and a mad rush of a much larger team towards launch). If we double our salary estimate (take 20 years instead of 60), double our marketing estimate (4 million of marketing for a flagship halo product - yet right), and double the BoM/manufacturing cost (20k per unit on a almost entirely hand built custom manufacturing with almost zero shared components), you will not recoup your investment even with half the Orpheus HE90 units sold (you'd need to sell 166).

The point of a halo product like the HE-1 isn't profit, but rather to make a statement and attract people to buy other headphones that you make. How many people read about the HE-1 and decided to try high end headphones like the HD 600? That is priceless to Sennheiser, as those customers turn into life long fans.



This is a surprising comment from you if you are familiar with manufacturing. Phones have standard sized screens and standard requirements for fitting into that form factor. Flat, rectangular. Corning measures these kind of unit sales in the billions. How many of those applications are convex, spherical, shaped in a 3-d pane, and meet the size standards of the HD 820, in the application that Sennheiser uses it? Zero. Sennheiser's couple of hundred units will mean Corning needs a dedicated manufacturing line, dedicated training, and dedicated expertise in manufacturing what? 300 units? Assuming that is in any way equivalent to overstock sold by third parties is absurd. It's almost like saying the windshield in the Ford GT uses gorilla glass, so you'd only spend max 15$ on a replacement windshield. (For the record, a replacement Aston Martin windshield will run you about 4 grand, I imagine the Ford GT custom gorilla glass panel is quite a bit more).

There is so much to pick apart in this post I don't even know where to begin.

£10,000 BoM on the Orpheus and you think that is a conservative estimate? Because of the use of marble? Do you have any experience in manufacturing or in the buying or selling or marble? The fireplace in my living room is made entirely of a high quality marble and it cost me well under a £1000, including fitting. It literally has orders of magnitude more marble in it than the Orpheus rig does.

10 years of pure development? Utterly laughable. Perhaps as a limited side passion project alongside other major projects, but the notion that it took an entire team that long for the Orpheus project is outrageous, and you'd have to be a special sort of gullible to believe it. The McLaren P1 didn't even take that long, and it is orders of magnitude more technologically advanced, complex, cutting edge and comprehensive.

And £100,000 per annum averaged salaries? What world do you live in where you think headphone engineers earn these sorts of sums on average? On GlassDoor it is reported that Service Technicians and Engineers at Sennheiser get around £32,000 (€36,000) per annum.

Regarding sales of the Orpheus, well we don't know how many will be sold, but presumably if Sennheiser plan to make 250 units a year, that means they're confident they will sell at least close to that number. If they sold 250 units, as mentioned, that would be roughly £12.5 million in revenue.

Regarding the custom shape of the Gorilla Glass, major manufacturers and third party sellers already sell official gorilla glass that is unusually shaped, curved etc at the sort of prices I've mentioned, so the idea the curved glass for the HD820 would be astronomically more expensive just doesn't seem remotely logical or realistic.

Finally, that you think Sennheiser will only produce 300 of these units is again, pretty hilarious. Sennheiser has produced and sold thousands of HD800/HD800S's, hence why the headband serial numbers correspondingly go in to the tens of thousands. They'll have to order glass not only for actual retail units of the HD820, but more for spares, repairs and all the rest, plus the fact that it's two pieces per headphone (left and right), so in the end they'll most probably end up ordering a few thousand pieces of gorilla glass, at least, not 300 lol.

You're literally a product developer and marketers dream consumer if you believe half the stuff you type.
 
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Jan 16, 2018 at 1:15 AM Post #609 of 4,357
There is so much to pick apart in this post I don't even know where to begin.

£10,000 BoM on the Orpheus and you think that is a conservative estimate? Because of the use of marble? Do you have any experience in manufacturing or in the buying or selling or marble? The fireplace in my living room is made entirely of a high quality marble and it cost me well under a £1000. It literally has orders of magnitude more marble in it than the Orpheus rig does.

10 years of pure development? Utterly laughable. Perhaps as a limited side passion project alongside other major projects, but the notion that it took an entire team that long for the Orpheus project is outrageous, and you'd have to be a special sort of gullible to believe it. The McLaren P1 didn't even take that long, and it is orders of magnitude more technologically advanced, complex, cutting edge and comprehensive. You're literally a product developer and marketers dream consumer if you believe half the stuff you type.

Regarding sales of the Orpheus, well we don't know how many will be sold, but presumably if Sennheiser plan to make 250 units a year, that means they're confident they will sell at least close to that number. If they sold 250 units, as mentioned, that would be roughly £12.5 million in revenue.

Regarding the custom shape of the Gorilla Glass, major manufacturers and third party sellers already sell official gorilla glass that is unusually shaped, curved etc at the sort of prices I've mentioned, so the idea the curved glass for the HD820 would be astronomically more expensive just doesn't seem remotely logical or realistic.

Finally, that you think Sennheiser will only produce 300 of these units is again, pretty hilarious. Sennheiser has produced and sold thousands of HD800/HD800S's, hence why the headband serial numbers correspondingly go in to the tens of thousands. They'll have to order glass not only for actual retail units of the HD820, but more for spares, repairs and all the rest, plus the fact that it's two pieces per headphone (left and right), so in the end they'll most probably end up ordering a few thousand pieces of gorilla glass, at least, not 300 lol.

Well it’s all just speculation since I’m sure neither of you really KNOW any of what you are saying, only Sennheiser do, and I doubt they are going to share the information.
 
Jan 16, 2018 at 1:26 AM Post #610 of 4,357
I highly doubt it. I don't think it is going to be even close to Focal Clear ($1500) in terms of sound fidelity. Unless you desperately need a closed phone or a big fan of senn's darkish sound signature, you won't give away $2400. And at 1/3 price, there is Aeon closed ($800).

Basically, you can buy both focal clear and aeon closed... and spend the rest $100 on bacon.

Most illuminating comment in the thread so far.

I own the Aeon Closed - that is an excellent headphone. The HD820 would have to be spectacular to make it a rational purchase proposition for me at 3x the price. If the SQ is similar to the HD800S, which I also have, but just in a closed format then I will pass on this.
 
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Jan 16, 2018 at 3:04 AM Post #611 of 4,357
Irrelevant content deleted
 
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Jan 16, 2018 at 3:29 AM Post #612 of 4,357
10 years of pure development? Utterly laughable. Perhaps as a limited side passion project alongside other major projects, but the notion that it took an entire team that long for the Orpheus project is outrageous, and you'd have to be a special sort of gullible to believe it. The McLaren P1 didn't even take that long, and it is orders of magnitude more technologically advanced, complex, cutting edge and comprehensive.

I just want to clarify my math here. I estimated 50 man years, not years. Man years is a function of how many people are assigned to a project and how long they are assigned. If 30 people were assigned to the Orpheus project, once the initial R&D and preliminary engineering was done, and it took 2 years to bring the project to fruition, that would mean 60 man years. That is a reasonable estimate for such a project, IMO (I would even put it higher, maybe 100-500).

McLaren would have hundreds of people working on a new car over 4 - 5 years (a typical product development cycle), so you are looking at 2000-5000 man years, even though the project technically only took 5 years.

You can see, once salaries and other costs are taken into consideration, how even exorbitantly priced, these flagship projects can ultimately fail to recoup their costs.

Regardless, at this point, having a moment of self-reflection, I can see that it has been many pages since the last productive words were shared related to the HD 820. At this point, I will bow out of the conversation. I will rejoin you all once my HD 820 arrive this summer and share my impressions. I hope people can keep an open mind, and hopefully the atmosphere around this thread will be considerably less toxic at that time.

Cheers to all my impassioned debate partners. It has been fun, but now, on to listening, and less bickering!
 
Jan 16, 2018 at 4:42 AM Post #614 of 4,357
very curious about this too as I was prepared to purchase a Z1R and then Senn went and announced the HD820. do you think it’s worth waiting?!
As an owner of both the HD800S and the Z1R, I actually expect the HD820 to be a very different animal compared to the Z1R. I for one am very keen to see how this pans out.
 
Jan 16, 2018 at 5:07 AM Post #615 of 4,357
As an owner of both the HD800S and the Z1R, I actually expect the HD820 to be a very different animal compared to the Z1R. I for one am very keen to see how this pans out.

Mm...looking forward too. Comparing it with my z1r, ether c, fostex th900 and beyerdynamic T1.2 (semi-closed).

Anyone has a pic of the 820 packaging? Presentation box?
 

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