[franz12]

Flagship headphone prices have skyrocketed lately, I don't remember which manufacturer started this trend, but things have really gone out of hand. I remember when I bought my first "high-end" headphones almost twenty years ago (1999 if I remember well), Sennheiser HD600, which were their flagship product, and I paid the equivalent to 180 euros for them. They are still in good shape as of today after exchanging pads and headband and I still enjoy them very much.

Now dynamic/planar flagships range from 1000€ to 4000€, making something like the HD800 almost seem cheap. HD820 seems nothing more than a nice looking closed back variant with cool touches like the glass covers, but these highlight the current trend of ever increasing prices for minor (if even present) improvements in sound in the headphone enthusiast market.

Just think about what speakers can be bought for less than 2000€ (per pair), for example Focal Aria, for even less B&W 683, and these are offerings from well known manufacturers, there are good and cheap offerings from lesser known brands, so you can get a very nice pair of speakers and receiver/amplifier for 2000€.

Compare the required materials and effort required to build such speakers to that of headphones, and give it a thought. I understand that over 1000€ headphones are more of a niche product, but even then in my opinion the performance/price ratio is ever decreasing with the current trend of prices.

I just searched for Focal Area and B&W 283 you mentioned. Those are cool looking man.

 

[amartignano]

Just think about what speakers can be bought for less than 2000€ (per pair), for example Focal Aria, for even less B&W 683

I have the 683s2, astonishingly good full spectrum speakers Nevertheless, there's probably much more research in the Hd800 and Hd820 than in the very standardized B&W 683s2. However I agree that those prices are crazy.

 

[headr]

Flagship headphone prices have skyrocketed lately, I don't remember which manufacturer started this trend, but things have really gone out of hand. I remember when I bought my first "high-end" headphones almost twenty years ago (1999 if I remember well), Sennheiser HD600, which were their flagship product, and I paid the equivalent to 180 euros for them. They are still in good shape as of today after exchanging pads and headband and I still enjoy them very much.

At the same time, the HD 600 is still available, the existence of other headphones does not devalue your HD 600 in any way, and the existence of other more expensive headphones should not impact or impair your ability to enjoy your HD 600.

A company releasing a new headphone, at any price range, is simply an option in the marketplace. Flagships allow headphone manufacturers to experiment with innovation. Focal with beryllium, Sennheiser with glass, Sennheiser with electrostatic headphones, and so on. Some of these technologies may trickle down to lower priced products. We see some of this in the HD 800 leading to the HD 700 leading to the successor to the HD 650 in the HD 660, which is priced the same as the HD 660.

Enjoy your headphones, no matter what they are, or what your budget is. Getting caught up in disparaging products that happen to be expensive doesn't really contribute much to the conversation - not saying you specifically are doing this, but that was more directed at others who are invoking random invented reasons why the HD 820 must be an inferior product not worth the money throughout this thread.

 

[god-bluff]

Subscribed hoping to hear more early impressions from CES. I didn’t expect to get spammed with bickering...

Pop back when the headphones are available

In the meantime the only thing that is known is the price. That is all that can be discussed without speculation

 

[Beagle]

But I’d add that Hifiman and Audeze are more guilty here than Sennheiser.

Oh definitely. It is they who got that ball rolling in the first place.

 

[Audioholic123]

Considering the most common usage of gorilla glass at the moment is cell phones, and they are manufacturing a custom glass exclusively for the HD 820, you can bet that has huge effect on the profit margins of the product, and also speaks to the no compromise design goal of the HD 820 in the first place.

You can bet that it was a very bad decision by "the worlds best headphone manufacturer" to include gorilla glass in the HD820's design and that regardless of how the headphone sounds, it will be an epic failure financially for Sennheiser, in the long run.
They could've just designed a normal closed-back headphone that would've cost less to make whilst possibly sounding better, but no, Sennheiser like to show off. More of these kind of decisions could be their downfall in years to come..

 

[Beagle]

You can bet that it was a very bad decision by "the worlds best headphone manufacturer" to include gorilla glass in the HD820's design and that regardless of how the headphone sounds, it will be an epic failure financially for Sennheiser, in the long run.
They could've just designed a normal closed-back headphone that would've cost less to make whilst possibly sounding better, but no, Sennheiser like to show off. It could be their downfall in years to come..

Looking for the 'dislike' button but can't find it...

 

[LaCuffia]

Perhaps you can apply for the job of Sennheiser CEO and prevent the downfall, Audioholic123.

 

[Naim.F.C]

This isn't even true, especially when you get to the flagship absolute most expensive products. Famous high end flagship loss leaders are everywhere, including the original Chevrolet Corvette. The Lexus LFA was priced at 375,000 and Lexus lost money on each one. Is Sennheiser even making a profit with the Orpheus at 50,000 ? Hard to say, it's a statement product. Paying Axel Grell and a team even a couple months of salaries to research and develop it, not to mention the custom manufacturing line required, probably means they have to sell more than their capacity just to make up for the operating and capital expenditure.

Headphones and most other manufactured goods benefit the most from economics of scale. If Sennheiser can sell more, they make more profit, because their manufacturing chains are more optimised. Considering the most common usage of gorilla glass at the moment is cell phones, and they are manufacturing a custom glass exclusively for the HD 820, you can bet that has huge effect on the profit margins of the product, and also speaks to the no compromise design goal of the HD 820 in the first place. The price is a happy medium between selling units and maintaining a profit margin. If Sennheiser could price it for less, they would sell much more units, could order the gorilla glass in higher bulk quantities (along with other components) and potentially make even more profit. That's how this generally works.

As I've said the entire thread, Sennheiser has already proven themselves to respect the price to performance ratio for their customers. Each subsequent headphone release tends to maintain the same or even lower prices compared to previous versions. The most rational expectation to have regarding the HD 820 is that they will continue this tradition, unless they prove otherwise.

It really does come across as many people are hoping this headphone fails, either because they have already determined it is too expensive before even listening to it based on wild assumptions, or that they have an ingrained prejudice against closed headphones and hate the thought that a closed headphone occupies the top spot of Sennheiser's line up.

It amounts to a bunch of negative nancy wishful thinking, which is absurd considering the headphone is only in prototype form, all initial impressions have been extremely positive, and Sennheiser as a company have proven themselves over and over.

The entire negative nancy atmosphere that some are perpetuating has no place in the conversation here, in my opinion. We should focus on the initial impressions, and stick to the facts we already know. Some excitement about Sennheiser releasing a new flagship is justified, IMO, but pages and pages of complaining about price, assuming this headphone is a rip off, wild assumptions about the lack of product development, and so on, are just thread pollution.

It's impossible to talk about any theoretical value proposition before the headphone is even released. If 2500 is more than you care to spend on headphones, which is completely understandable, perhaps you shouldn't be entering a conversation about $2500 headphones. Plenty of people have spent more and are completely satisfied. No one is forcing anyone to buy anything.

Did you actually even read my post? I never said high end products having higher than normal margins is always the case, but that it is generally the case, and that is absolutely true. You describing a couple of extreme outlier examples is hardly evidence contrary to that. For every LFA or Corvette there are dozens of Lambos, Ferrari's, Rolls Royces, Bentleys, McLarens, Porsches, GT-R Nismos, BMW GTS models, Zondas, Jaguar performance Project cars, Mercedes supercars, Eagle E-type Speedsters and all the rest that have higher than normal margins, not just on the vehicles themselves, but parts too. Eg a replacement decal on a Lamborghini SV that costs $2800. Yes, you read that right, a sticker that costs $2800...

And did you honestly, really ask if the €50,000 Orpheus is profitable for Sennheiser? I take back my previous post, I actually have two bridges to sell you. They are producing 250 of them per annum. Provided they're confident they'll sell them all, that means they'll be taking revenue of around €12.5 MILLION per annum just on the Orpheus alone. The fact that you think they might be loss leaders is genuinely laughable to me.

Also, again with the corporate apologist tact. Gorilla glass in mobile phones is in BoM analyst reports as costing around $3 per unit. Even third party vendors sell genuine replacement Gorilla Glass for around $15, and that's for large 6+" pieces. Given that Sennheiser will likely be producing a few thousand of these HD820 units, even on custom glass pieces you can bet the manufacturering cost will barely make a dent to the overall margin of the product.

Finally, I'm not hoping this product fails, I'm just against the recent excessive price gouging of consumers within the industry, because I'm frugal, appreciate good value proposition, don't like wasting money but like high end headphones and nice things, plus ultimately I'm not a corporate apologist.

As I said before, I run multiple businesses and they partly deal with manufacturering. When consumers defend and promote corporations ever fleecing consumers I honestly can't help but be disappointed. It's not about being a negative nancy, it's about wanting the best bang for your buck, and letting manufacturers know we're not content with them fleecing us for more and more, for less and less.

 

[kerrys30]

I just don't get the price argument every time a new product is released. I know it isn't out and there isn't much else to discuss but people seem to believe they have a right to own every product they want and if the cost is too much it is the manufacturers greed! It is like they were really happy with there current system, then a new product (expensive product) is launched and now their system and every other product is not good enough!

I would love an Aston Martin. Is it gonna happen.....no! But I don't go bitching on Aston Martin forums how absurdly expensive it is and how a Ford Focus is a fraction of the cost and does the same job of getting from A to B.

I have had (and love) the HD650 since they were first released. If I end up with am 800S or 820, the 650 will still be great. If I try the 820 but prefer the 800S......cool, I save some money. If I try the 820 and love it but don't have the funds......I will make a mental note and see if I can start putting some money aside.

No one is forcing anyone to buy it. Do I think Sennheiser (or any manufacturer) or in the business to make money......hell yes. Does this mean they are fleecing me, No. I have the option to buy or not buy.

Roll on the release date and some more impressions!

 

[Dulalala]

Did you actually even read my post? I never said high end products having higher than normal margins is always the case, but that it is generally the case, and that is absolutely true. You describing a couple of extreme outlier examples is hardly evidence contrary to that. For every LFA or Corvette there are dozens of Lambos, Ferrari's, Rolls Royces, Bentleys, McLarens, Porsches, GT-R Nismos, BMW GTS models, Zondas, Jaguar performance Project cars, Mercedes supercars, Eagle E-type Speedsters and all the rest that have higher than normal margins, not just on the vehicles themselves, but parts too. Eg a replacement decal on a Lamborghini SV that costs $2800. Yes, you read that right, a sticker that costs $2800...

And did you honestly, really ask if the €50,000 Orpheus is profitable for Sennheiser? I take back my previous post, I actually have two bridges to sell you. They are producing 250 of them per annum. Provided they're confident they'll sell them all, that means they'll be taking revenue of around €12.5 MILLION per annum just on the Orpheus alone. The fact that you think they might be loss leaders is genuinely laughable to me.

Also, again with the corporate apologist tact. Gorilla glass in mobile phones is in BoM analyst reports as costing around $3 per unit. Even third party vendors sell genuine replacement Gorilla Glass for around $15, and that's for large 6+" pieces. Given that Sennheiser will likely be producing a few thousand of these HD820 units, even on custom glass pieces you can bet the manufacturering cost will barely make a dent to the overall margin of the product.

Finally, I'm not hoping this product fails, I'm just against the recent excessive price gouging of consumers within the industry, because I'm frugal, appreciate good value proposition, don't like wasting money but like high end headphones and nice things, plus ultimately I'm not a giant corporate apologist.

As I said before, I run multiple businesses and they partly deal with manufacturering. When consumers defend and promote corporations ever fleecing consumers I honestly can't help but be disappointed. It's not about being a negative nancy, it's about wanting the best bang for your buck, and letting manufacturers know we're not content with them fleecing us for more and more, for less and less.

This thread is getting ridiculous...

For one, did you ever consider that gorilla glass typically sold at that price is NOT curved? I'm not justifying Sennheiser price for that one factor, nor am I against it's pricing scheme, but I'd rather you not spew out things you aren't completely sure about.

Also, while I agree with you that obviously the profit margin is going to be on the higher end compared to other industries, you surely must realize in the end, Sennheiser is a business. Their goal, is to make money, not give out free stuff. Considering how niche of a market high end audio is, obviously the mark up is going to be higher than other industries.

If you're also truly all about consumer protection and making sure manufacturers/providers aren't screwing us over, why on Earth are you complaining about a luxury product on a headphone forum. Surely there are more pressing issues right? A luxury high end headphone isn't a basic right or a necessarity is it?

 

[Naim.F.C]

I just don't get the price argument every time a new product is released. I know it isn't out and there isn't much else to discuss but people seem to believe they have a right to own every product they want and if the cost is too much it is the manufacturers greed! It is like they were really happy with there current system, then a new product (expensive product) is launched and now their system and every other product is not good enough!

I would love an Aston Martin. Is it gonna happen.....no! But I don't go bitching on Aston Martin forums how absurdly expensive it is and how a Ford Focus is a fraction of the cost and does the same job of getting from A to B.

I have had (and love) the HD650 since they were first released. If I end up with am 800S or 820, the 650 will still be great. If I try the 820 but prefer the 800S......cool, I save some money. If I try the 820 and love it but don't have the funds......I will make a mental note and see if I can start putting some money aside.

No one is forcing anyone to buy it. Do I think Sennheiser (or any manufacturer) or in the business to make money......hell yes. Does this mean they are fleecing me, No. I have the option to buy or not buy.

Roll on the release date and some more impressions!

I think the important thing you're missing here is context. People aren't going on Aston Martin forums complaining about the price compared to a Ford Focus because technologically and engineering wise an Aston Martin is literally orders of magnitude more sophisticated and advanced than any Ford Focus.

A Ford Focus RS, which has a 2.3ltr V4 345bhp engine, does 0-60 in around 5 seconds, a top speed of 167mph, has a fairly ho hum interior, sells for what, £35k? The new 2018 Aston Martin Vantage, which looks absolutely incredible, has a kerb weight of 1530kg, a 4.0ltr 500+bhp AMG V8 engine, stunning design and interior with carbon fibre galore, a 0-60 time of just 3.6 seconds, a top speed of 195mph, sells for £120k. So it's 3.4x the cost of a Ford Focus RS, but what you're getting for that difference is pretty massive.

Similarly, a HD800S retails for roughly 3.8x the price of a HD600, but few are complaining because you get a hell of a lot for that difference, especially in build, materials, design and the additional balanced cable. A HD820 now being close to 6x the price of a HD600 and essentially 2x the price of a HD800, is diminishing that value proposition to beyond reasonable.

And yes, nobody is forcing anybody to buy anything, but of course audiophile consumers want to buy good sounding products, but at the same time they don't want to be charged unnecessary mark ups or margins for them, and they're well within their rights to complain about diminished value proposition or value for money.

Ultimately we as consumers shouldn't care for companies making vast profits, our concerns should be about getting the most bang for buck possible, and we can exercise that by either speaking with our wallets and not buying over priced products, or by voicing our woes on forums such as this, which presumably Sennheiser employees, PR or marketing do read from time to time.

Apple faced a lot of angry backlash over their iPhone X being 10-20% more expensive than their previous flagship, imagine if it had been double the price? Yes it'd still sell gangbusters, but you can bet there'd be a lot of unhappy or angry consumers, and it likely would have sold far less. I guess Sennheiser, having seen pricing of headphones like the Utopia, LCD-3, LCD-4 etc, are taking a stab at price gouging of their own, hoping it will not affect sales. I guess we'll see.

At the end of the day, I think the major sticking point is that the HD820 does not represent a massive shift or innovation comparative to the two models that came before it. Instead it is literally a slightly tweaked, closed version of a previously released model (think LCD XC vs LCD X or Ether C vs Ether Flow), but now double the price. That is why there is such a backlash or hoo hah. If the HD820 was announced at a similar price to the HD800S, minus the inclusion of the balanced cable, I don't think there would be anywhere near the critical response.

 

[franz12]

I think the important thing you're missing here is context. People aren't going on Aston Martin forms complaining about the price compared to a Ford Focus because technologically and engineering wise an Aston Martin is literally orders of magnitude more sophisticated and advanced than any Ford Focus.

A Ford Focus RS, which has a 2.3ltr V4 345bhp engine, does 0-60 in around 5 seconds, has a fairly ho hum interior, sells for what, £35k? The new 2018 Aston Martin Vantage, which looks absolutely incredible, has a kerb weight of 1530kg, a 4.0ltr 500+bhp AMG V8 engine, stunning design and interior with carbon fibre galore, a 0-60 time of just 3.6 seconds, a top speed of 195mph, and sells for £120k. So it's 3.4x the cost of a Ford Focus RS, but what you're getting for that difference is pretty massive.

And yes, nobody is forcing anybody to buy anything, but of course audiophile consumers want to buy good sounding products, but at the same time they don't want to be charged unnecessary mark ups or margins for them, and they're well within their rights to complain about diminished value proposition or value for money.

At the end of the day, the HD820 does not represent a massive shift or innovation comparative to the two models that came before it. Instead it is literally a slightly tweaked, closed version of a previously released model (think LCD XC vs LCD X or Ether C vs Ether Flow), but now double the price. That is why there is such a backlash or hoo hah. If the HD820 was announced at a similar price to the HD800S, minus the inclusion of the balanced cable, I don't think there would be anywhere near the critical response.

To me, it looks like a new (or old) strategy from a large manufacturer like senn and focal. Offer a new product with a high mark-up and sell a first few thousands to people who can't wait, and recoup whatever r&d costs and win. Think about focal utopia, which sold at a deep discount after a year.

Indeed, there are some people who are impatient enough who found themselves taking a substantial loss after a year. Of course, costs are no object for some people with deep pockets. Well, we might need to learn to be patient including myself, otherwise we will be broke.

 

[Dulalala]

A Ford Focus RS, which has a 2.3ltr V4 345bhp engine, does 0-60 in around 5 seconds, has a fairly ho hum interior, sells for what, £35k? The new 2018 Aston Martin Vantage, which looks absolutely incredible, has a kerb weight of 1530kg, a 4.0ltr 500+bhp AMG V8 engine, stunning design and interior with carbon fibre galore, a 0-60 time of just 3.6 seconds, a top speed of 195mph, sells for £120k. So it's 3.4x the cost of a Ford Focus RS, but what you're getting for that difference is pretty massive.

It's 3.4x the cost, but the cost of what it's compared too isn't exactly cheap either. If a product sold for $1.00 was sold at $3.40. A difference of $84,000 is not the same as a difference of $2.40.

And yes, nobody is forcing anybody to buy anything, but of course audiophile consumers want to buy good sounding products, but at the same time they don't want to be charged unnecessary mark ups or margins for them, and they're well within their rights to complain about diminished value proposition or value for money.

I can understand the diminished value issue, but the general nature of this hobby is once you get to a certain point, an incremental increase is just harder to get, let alone hear. If people want the best value, they really shouldn't be looking at the high end section of audio correct? In my humble opinion, I think people just want the best for less, not the best for price.

Ultimately we as consumers shouldn't care for companies making vast profits, our concerns should be about getting the most bang for buck possible, and we can exercise that by either speaking with our wallets and not buying over priced products, or by voicing our woes on forums such as this. Apple faced a lot of angry backlash over their iPhone X being 10-20% more expensive than their previous flagship, imagine if it had been double the price. Yes it'd still sell gangbusters, but you can bet there'd be a lot of unhappy or angry consumers.

Yes but a headphones lifespan is much longer than a mobile phone. You don't need to buy a new headphone every other year. You also don't need an iPhone X, there are plenty of other options out there.

At the end of the day, I think the major sticking point is that the HD820 does not represent a massive shift or innovation comparative to the two models that came before it. Instead it is literally a slightly tweaked, closed version of a previously released model (think LCD XC vs LCD X or Ether C vs Ether Flow), but now double the price. That is why there is such a backlash or hoo hah. If the HD820 was announced at a similar price to the HD800S, minus the inclusion of the balanced cable, I don't think there would be anywhere near the critical response.

I agree that it'll probably just end up being a slightly tweaked version of previous models, but it's still not as simple as sticking glass on to a HD800S. Let's go under the assumption it's completely the same as the HD800S, wouldn't just that make the decision of buying a HD800S easier? Let's go under another assumption, that there was a slight difference. I'd bet a pretty penny that most of it is due to the pads. Those are simple enough to replace, assuming the size is the same, so it's not exactly a hard "upgrade".

 

[Naim.F.C]

Anyway, price discussions aside, I'm extremely interested to see how the HD820 compares to the MDR-Z1R sonically. I recently sold my HD800S, HD800 and LCD-3 because I preferred the Z1R's and loved the fact that they're not only closed, but so comfortable and light (as are the HD800 line too). I managed to pick them up near launch for just £1,300 (still too much money for a pair of headphones lol) so I didnt consider them too overpriced at the time. Sonically, in many ways I actually felt the Z1R's sort of vaguely sounded like a warmer, more bass emphasised closed HD800S. I feel like the HD820 will likely be just that in comparison to the HD800S, eg they'll add a touch more bass and warmth at the expense of soundstage and outright air.

Slowly introducing more bass and warmth in to the HD800 line, plus reducing that 6k peak is sort of the way Sennheiser has been taking things for a while now, not just with the new model, but late serial revisions of the older model too.