[Whazzzup]

Electrical noise from a PC or Mac corrupting the sound. Is there any evidence that this noise is audible? And I don't just mean measureable, we all can agree that we can measure tiny, tiny amounts of electrical noise, what I have never seen is evidence that this noise even approaches audibility. I'm not trying to be one of those annoying objectivists although I know I am, but seriously, where is the evidence of this audible electrical noise? I often read about measurements being compared that do indeed demonstrate a difference, but that does not in any way conflate to practical difference. Our brain is really not that powerful at discriminating such faint signals overtop of the music, it just isn't. Heck, we can barely hear somebody a few feet away talking when there is background noise in the room so how are we to hear these tiny, tiny, tiny, little bits of electrical noise over-top of amplified music? The noise would have to be at a very high amplitude to be audible.

I have already given you my a/b observations of audioquest jitterbug and my perceptions of better sound quality. Its 65$ you should find out for yourself. It does reduce jitter as well.

 

[Sonic Defender]

I have already given you my a/b observations of audioquest jitterbug and my perceptions of better sound quality. Its 65$ you should find out for yourself. It does reduce jitter as well.

Oh yah, sorry, I did forget about that conversation. As you mentioned, it is a personal decision and if people perceive a benefit, well then the benefit was had so it is all good.

 

[GearMe]

Electrical noise from a PC or Mac corrupting the sound. Is there any evidence that this noise is audible? And I don't just mean measureable, we all can agree that we can measure tiny, tiny amounts of electrical noise, what I have never seen is evidence that this noise even approaches audibility. I'm not trying to be one of those annoying objectivists although I know I am, but seriously, where is the evidence of this audible electrical noise? I often read about measurements being compared that do indeed demonstrate a difference, but that does not in any way conflate to practical difference. Our brain is really not that powerful at discriminating such faint signals overtop of the music, it just isn't. Heck, we can barely hear somebody a few feet away talking when there is background noise in the room so how are we to hear these tiny, tiny, tiny, little bits of electrical noise over-top of amplified music? The noise would have to be at a very high amplitude to be audible.

Hmmm...many folks might make the same argument for any DAC over $100, or Redbook vs DSD, yada, yada!

 

[Rob80b]

  Electrical noise from a PC or Mac corrupting the sound. Is there any evidence that this noise is audible? .................
 

Audible perception is more than just hearing, as much as we feel but not hear those lower base (sub) notes high frequency noise, either from the electronics themselves or the digital analogue conversion, high frequency jitter etc is constantly present and over long term listening, especially with headphones could be rather fatiguing.
From experience attention always needs to be addressed to power supplies to reduce such noise and with digital mediums even more so as the digital bits get converted into an analogue signal, the pre-amplification of the signal from the dac prior to reaching levels necessary to drive the headphone amp is also vitally important and then there is the amplification for the headphones themselves.
IMHO very few if any solely computer based playback systems have truly addressed the noise issues when compared to dedicated music systems, (seeing you're in Canada) our own homegrown Bryston and many other manufacturers are a testament to this where they go through great strides at reducing the noise floor and any digital contamination of the digital and audio signal….and the results are ….audible in getting that final “analogue” audio signal to our ears.
Needless to say I quite enjoy my smaller affordable portable devices making music a mobile endeavor and always amazed at the quality of the sound but that sense of reality that the higher end systems do impart is IMHO just not obtainable on such devices.
Sure we can talk base slam, silky highs, full enveloping midrange but there is always something subtlety missing or should I say added that stops to make a really good system (computer based or not) from being excellent and it’s the inaudible high frequency (electrical) noise that needs to be eliminated.

 

[Zoom25]

I've put several hundred hours on the BDP-1 and thousands on the various computer Mac/PC systems I have all while sitting in the nearfield sweetspot. All those subtle changes due to lower noise and jitter add up. Initially, it was a hearing thing for me going back and forth. Now it's almost a distinct feeling that you get with the BDP-1 and another distinct feeling for the Mac playback. I'm highly aware of the differences in how  the room fills up. You definitely have to spend some time listening to both systems to fully get a grasp on how the music overall is changing. I'm sure many others owning these systems will say the same.

 

[Rob80b]

  ............. Now it's almost a distinct feeling that you get......

As I mentioned "Audible perception is more than just hearing"...or ...more of what we don't hear  that gives us that feeling....

 

[Zoom25]

  As I mentioned "Audible perception is more than just hearing"...or ...more of what we don't hear  that gives us that feeling....

 
Agreed on all accounts. The more you're able to listen to the signal ONLY, the better it gets. Less fatiguing as well. Forget the sound benefits, the lack of fatigue alone is worth it for me. It's the equivalent of room treatment for me. Less room, more speakers.

 

[Sonic Defender]

Hmmm...many folks might make the same argument for any DAC over $100, or Redbook vs DSD, yada, yada!

And those same folks could in theory be correct couldn't they? As a related aside, I hosted a head-fi meet here in Ottawa about three years ago where I conducted a well controlled, blind listening test of 320mp3 versus the lossless master the song was made from. I had 7 head-fi member test subjects, most young university guys with youthful hearing acquity as participants.
 
They did 5 trials each and not one of them could identify the 320 from the lossless master better than 50% of the time despite going into it convinced they could. One young guy was really embarrased as he was so convinced of the differences and explained how he had tested himself on several ocassions. He couldn't tell either. This is not a unique result either, for the few people who bother to test assumptions like this, this is the normal result.

 

[kendavis]

  And those same folks could in theory be correct couldn't they? As a related aside, I hosted a head-fi meet here in Ottawa about three years ago where I conducted a well controlled, blind listening test of 320mp3 versus the lossless master the song was made from. I had 7 head-fi member test subjects, most young university guys with youthful hearing acquity as participants.
 
They did 5 trials each and not one of them could identify the 320 from the lossless master better than 50% of the time despite going into it convinced they could. One young guy was really embarrased as he was so convinced of the differences and explained how he had tested himself on several ocassions. He couldn't tell either. This is not a unique result either, for the few people who bother to test assumptions like this, this is the normal result.

It depends a lot on the music. Some kinds of music compress better than others.

 

[kendavis]

  And those same folks could in theory be correct couldn't they? As a related aside, I hosted a head-fi meet here in Ottawa about three years ago where I conducted a well controlled, blind listening test of 320mp3 versus the lossless master the song was made from. I had 7 head-fi member test subjects, most young university guys with youthful hearing acquity as participants.
 
They did 5 trials each and not one of them could identify the 320 from the lossless master better than 50% of the time despite going into it convinced they could. One young guy was really embarrased as he was so convinced of the differences and explained how he had tested himself on several ocassions. He couldn't tell either. This is not a unique result either, for the few people who bother to test assumptions like this, this is the normal result.

It depends a lot on the music. Some kinds of music compress better than others.

 

[Sonic Defender]

  It depends a lot on the music. Some kinds of music compress better than others.

If you can hear the differences, you can hear them, or you can't. Although, I will say that yes really well mastered, quieter recordings might compress a little differently, but I'm speculating there as I'm not aware of what science supports that idea, but intuitively it sounds plausible.
 
Edited my reply to be more balanced as I do try to keep an open mind.

 

[GearMe]

And those same folks could in theory be correct couldn't they? As a related aside, I hosted a head-fi meet here in Ottawa about three years ago where I conducted a well controlled, blind listening test of 320mp3 versus the lossless master the song was made from. I had 7 head-fi member test subjects, most young university guys with youthful hearing acquity as participants.

They did 5 trials each and not one of them could identify the 320 from the lossless master better than 50% of the time despite going into it convinced they could. One young guy was really embarrased as he was so convinced of the differences and explained how he had tested himself on several ocassions. He couldn't tell either. This is not a unique result either, for the few people who bother to test assumptions like this, this is the normal result.

Yep...they certainly could!

So, in your opinion, what would justify the purchase then of a $2000 DAC like an NAD M51 over say a Modi?

 

[Sonic Defender]

Yep...they certainly could!

So, in your opinion, what would justify the purchase then of a $2000 DAC like an NAD M51 over say a Modi?

Not sure, I somehow doubt in a blind listening test that I could tell the difference, but maybe I could? Sadly I have never had the chance to test. I know I added one of those MX-U8 usb converters and I couldn't hear a difference as opposed to just going from the USB of the M51. Your point is well taken, and I am being honest with you, I really don't know if I could tell the difference in a blind listening test between the Modi and the M51.

 

[AnakChan]

We're kinda going off topic here aren't we? Could we get back on track for the other HD800S subscribers?
 
There's a few other threads you can continue your discussion on :-

Lossy vs lossless: http://www.head-fi.org/t/708019/mp3-vs-flac
Lossy vs lossy: http://www.head-fi.org/t/646411/lossless-vs-128kbps-mp3-vs-320kbps-mp3-blind-test
etc.

 

[Sonic Defender]

Absolutely we could, and I think the off topic diversion was winding down anyway by itself so the timing for your prompt is excellent.