Sennheiser HD800S Unveiled!
Feb 3, 2016 at 1:03 PM Post #3,136 of 6,504
Maybe you guys already know but I just heard today that the upcoming upgraded HDVD800 will be called HDVD820 and it will have DSD, I honestly have no idea what that means but I'm sure some of you know. It will be priced at 2199 Euros and will be available in May-June 2016.
 
Feb 3, 2016 at 1:04 PM Post #3,137 of 6,504
Again about sibilance and the 800C...
are you sure that the fault is all its own ? I noticed for example that changing the power chord of the amplifier with a better one reduces this effect and also, with the Violectric 281 after about two hours, preferably three, they are greatly reduced.
It seems that there is a not positive influence by some form of distortion. If we assume that the 800 is a very revealing headphones It could only make more clear something that is upstream...
 
Feb 3, 2016 at 1:18 PM Post #3,138 of 6,504
Originally Posted by zolkis /img/forum/go_quote.gif
[...]
But whether it's 50% of total budget depends on case by case, and in which upgraditis stage the buyer is.
[...]
Sorry for the off-topic, but it felt good to remember all those systems above :).
Corrections and disagreements are welcome :).

Well, one more small addition into budget, what's needed for someone. Just adding thoughts.
 
Feb 3, 2016 at 1:24 PM Post #3,139 of 6,504
   
I agree with arguing against the 'source is the most important' mantra, AFAIK started by Ivor Tiefenbrun of Linn, in a time when there was a marketed quality jump in sources (the Linn Sondek LP12). Today it's not really the case anymore. "Good enough" sources are at hand for relatively cheap price, there are also reasonably priced "good enough" amps, but divergence in speakers is still huge. Differences in headphones are also huge.
 
But whether it's 50% of total budget depends on case by case, and in which upgraditis stage the buyer is. And seems to work differently with headphones than with speakers.
 
The remark works when it's about a jump in quality of the speakers (or headphones). When it's about diminishing returns (most of hi-fi enthusiasts' case), the situation may become different, as people already know which speakers or headphones work best for them, and invest more into "matching" amps and sources, chasing the diminishing returns in their chosen niche, generally becoming comfortable with the added costs. Case by case the 50% may still hold true, but not in general - not based on what I read on these forums.
 
It also depends a bit on the price range, since IMHO the price limit below which it is not worth going with electronics (for a given speaker or headphone) influences the ratio. It also depends on the synergy: relative resolutions (remember Wadia's argument about matching digital vs analog resolution), compensating or amplifying problems, etc.
 
Take some personal examples for good sound for the bucks:
HD650 + good-enough amp + DAC: headphones cost less than 50% (electronics hitting the limit)
Stax 207 + amp + DAC: headphones cost less than 50% (electronics hitting the limit)
TH900 + good-enough amp + DAC: headphones cost about 50% or much more (easy to drive)
Grado RS1 or GS1000 + amp + DAC: headphones cost more than 50% (easy to drive)
HD800(S) + [needs good amp] + [needs matching DAC]: headphones cost less than 50%, needs good matching
Stax L700 + amp + DAC: headphones cost less than 50% (electronics hitting the limit)
007 Mk1 + [needs good amp] + DAC: headphones cost less than 50% (need for good amp and source)
009 + good amp + DAC: headphones typically cost much less than 50%, or around 50%, and rarely more than 50%.
(But there are examples to the opposite as well, for instance I really recommend the 009 + this amp combo.)
Orpheus 2: although you can't buy them separate, the bulk of the price seems to go into the electronics.
 
Turning to speakers, taking isolated examples of good sound,
Linn Isobarik DMS, Infinity Renaissance 90, Yamaha NS-1000M etc + amp + DAC + new crossover parts: used speakers cost less than 50% (electronics hitting the limit)
Sonus Faber Electa Amator, Extrema: used speakers cost about 50% (sweet spot)
Harbeth M30.1 or C7ES3 or SHL5 + amp + DAC: speakers cost about 50% (sweet spot)
Dunlavy IV + amp + DAC: used speakers cost about 50% or less (bloody cheap speaker for this sound quality, and scales well)
Quad ESL 2905 or Magnepan 3.7 + amp + DAC: speakers cost more than 50%
Harbeth M40 or SF Guarneri + amp + DAC: speakers cost more than 50%
Audio Physic Caldera or Virgo 25 or Avanti 25 + amp + DAC: speakers cost more than 50%.
Sonus Faber Amati + amp + DAC, used speakers cost more than 50%
Dunlavy VI + amp + DAC: used speakers cost more than 50%. I'd name this speaker the absolute bargain of the century, and the biggest headphones ever :).
 
I could have gone and mention more (Wilson, Magico, Acapella, B&W Diamond etc) but the rule seems to hold: the higher you move, the speaker is taking more part of the budget.
I am aware that people like Jonathan Valin may disagree about scaling speakers with amps (consider Soulution amps for instance), but I hold to my opinion. It pays off to put the money into scaling the speakers rather than the electronics.
 
When you build the speakers and amps yourself, then it's again different: high end speakers are relatively cheaper than high end electronics. See Lynn Olson's Ariel and amp) projects.
 
In conclusion, the tendency with speakers goes opposite of what is going on with headphones, except in DIY.
 
Sorry for the off-topic, but it felt good to remember all those systems above :).
Corrections and disagreements are welcome :).


Wow! Thanks for that! Great to remember all that wonderful gear. And I do agree. Yes, it was largely Linns fault for the 'source is the most important component' maxim with the LP12. It was largely true at the time, but as you've so fully explained other factors have become more important, not least the whole idea of system matching and synergy. I've explained the reason for my original comment in post #3134.
 
Actually, whilst we're thinking about all of that great HI-Fi gear it's worth putting the cost of a really TOTL Head-Fi setup into perspective. Even the cost of the most expensive Stax system pales into insignificance next to the cost of equally esoteric Hi-Fi. And then you have to add the cost of a good listening room if you really want to hear it at it's best! Head-Fi, in general, gives a far higher quality listening experience to a far greater number of people at a far lower cost than truly good sounding Hi-Fi ever did or could.
 
And just to agree with you, and up late, further, in my system the speakers cost about 50% of the total (CD chain anyway). Marantz CD12 DA12, Mark Levinson No.38, ATC100ASL. (so they are active speakers, but even so.......)
 
Sorry for the off topic diversion............... :wink:
 
Feb 3, 2016 at 1:26 PM Post #3,140 of 6,504
   
I'm actually one of those people who play files straight out of my laptop to DAC and you're right; many people do these days. The effect of jitter though, and other digital domain gremlins is (and has been, many times before) the subject for another discussion, elsewhere, I think.
wink_face.gif
 Not to say jitter doesn't exist, just that I don't believe it to be an issue in terms of audible signal degradation, for a number of reasons. No doubt you take the opposite view!

 
On that we can agree! 
biggrin.gif

 
Feb 3, 2016 at 1:30 PM Post #3,141 of 6,504
  Well, one more small addition into budget, what's needed for someone. Just adding thoughts.

 
 
 
Wow! Thanks for that! Great to remember all that wonderful gear. And I do agree. Yes, it was largely Linns fault for the 'source is the most important component' maxim with the LP12. It was largely true at the time, but as you've so fully explained other factors have become more important, not least the whole idea of system matching and synergy. I've explained the reason for my original comment in post #3134.
 
Actually, whilst we're thinking about all of that great HI-Fi gear it's worth putting the cost of a really TOTL Head-Fi setup into perspective. Even the cost of the most expensive Stax system pales into insignificance next to the cost of equally esoteric Hi-Fi. And then you have to add the cost of a good listening room if you really want to hear it at it's best! Head-Fi, in general, gives a far higher quality listening experience to a far greater number of people at a far lower cost than truly good sounding Hi-Fi ever did or could.
 
And just to agree with you, and up late, further, in my system the speakers cost about 50% of the total (CD chain anyway). Marantz CD12 DA12, Mark Levinson No.38, ATC100ASL. (so they are active speakers, but even so.......)
 
Sorry for the off topic diversion............... :wink:

 
dharma, you posted just before I did! :wink:
 
Feb 3, 2016 at 3:10 PM Post #3,142 of 6,504
Im at the, will arrive any day now at my home  in canada! yippi
 
Feb 3, 2016 at 4:02 PM Post #3,143 of 6,504
Again about sibilance and the 800C...
are you sure that the fault is all its own ? I noticed for example that changing the power chord of the amplifier with a better one reduces this effect and also, with the Violectric 281 after about two hours, preferably three, they are greatly reduced.
It seems that there is a not positive influence by some form of distortion. If we assume that the 800 is a very revealing headphones It could only make more clear something that is upstream...

Well my Hugo TT sounds the same when I unplug the power cable, so it isn't the power or the power cable.

Also bear in mind that your hearing can change by a significant amount over a few hours. For example sometimes my hearing loses the low bass and at the same time the mid to treble regions sound brittle and I lose treble extension. The difference is huge and usually makes listening to music boring. Instead of that "I can't go to bed, there music!" feeling it's a case of "I'm bored and tired, time for bed".

Also I know that my ears change shape, because sometimes one or both of my IEMs will be loose.

So there's lots of things happening in your body that affect perception of sound and music.
 
Feb 3, 2016 at 4:46 PM Post #3,144 of 6,504
 
Not just looking at the lines but I'd guesstimate your top graph puts your 6 kHz spike around 3.5dB and your lower graph's spike at about 2.5dB (a little softer). I'd guesstimate my spike to be about even with your top graph at 3.5dB. I know lots of people think cable differences are snake oil, but I have a Violectric XLR balanced cable that helps tame the spike of my HD 800 some and increases clarity and timbre accurateness. The same cable makes my LCD-X sound even warmer (not good by my standard). My former cable puts some sparkle back in my LCD-X. It's troublesome but if I want the best out of each of these cans I have to switch cables to suit them and my taste.     

Yes of course my  experience is . cable do make a difference in hearing . have the original cable HD800 + BLUE DRAGON .

NEW HD800 original cable .A differences in sound  is ther .

However two different  hd800 headphones sound so different .

I had a pair of third-HD800 122XX was closer to New -
With outstanding transparency and detail. Difference in heaven and earth than 159 XX -Sold.

Summary
159XX pretty even more neutral sound stage width.  listen for hours. Begins to hear .them and then  go  to the new or not .

291XX also different volume and intensity have more. More bass sounds closer, width and depth slightly different. Excellent transparency.
Parallel connection to an amplifier LUXMAN P-1U + BCL - a clear comparison of the differences between them are so large.
Differences - allows me to choose - better match the source type and  .type recording. and amplifier .
At least from what I understand here HD800S have nothing to run to buy - or  upgrade frommy original HD800.





I am willing to bet that the majority of the differences you are hearing are due to the age & wear of the pads..!

Try again with pads swapped between all those units. ..

Also,
Sennheiser graphs are about as useful as a child drawing a straight line for you. .

Yes, truth is graphs are just for looks..
Totally useless for any type comparisons. .

Haha
 
Feb 3, 2016 at 4:55 PM Post #3,146 of 6,504
Well my Hugo TT sounds the same when I unplug the power cable, so it isn't the power or the power cable.

Also bear in mind that your hearing can change by a significant amount over a few hours. For example sometimes my hearing loses the low bass and at the same time the mid to treble regions sound brittle and I lose treble extension. The difference is huge and usually makes listening to music boring. Instead of that "I can't go to bed, there music!" feeling it's a case of "I'm bored and tired, time for bed".

Also I know that my ears change shape, because sometimes one or both of my IEMs will be loose.

So there's lots of things happening in your body that affect perception of sound and music.

Jawed, I do not speak of a continuous listening of two or three hours but the difference if I listen in the first half hour and then I stop and resume after this interval. The difference is clear in my memory. Sibilance decrease, the sound is more liquid (less distortion ?...) and also the image improves.
 
Feb 3, 2016 at 5:32 PM Post #3,147 of 6,504
Jawed, I do not speak of a continuous listening of two or three hours but the difference if I listen in the first half hour and then I stop and resume after this interval. The difference is clear in my memory. Sibilance decrease, the sound is more liquid (less distortion ?...) and also the image improves.

One doesn't have to listen continuously to cause the change in perception.

Anyway, I am not trying to say that your equipment always sounds perfectly the same (or that power cables don't make a difference) - I am merely saying that your body can change and you should be careful to understand your body, not just the equipment.

When my hearing changes for the worse, it is less liquid and has a more distorted feel. Liquidity is the big clue to the change, it's the single word that explains this difference that I've noticed for over 30 years. It took me about 15 years to realise it was me, not the equipment.
 
Feb 3, 2016 at 6:00 PM Post #3,148 of 6,504
I am willing to bet that the majority of the differences you are hearing are due to the age & wear of the pads..!

Try again with pads swapped between all those units. ..

Also,
Sennheiser graphs are about as useful as a child drawing a straight line for you. .

Yes, truth is graphs are just for looks..
Totally useless for any type comparisons. .

Haha

 
+1 on pad wear for differences. 
 
Feb 3, 2016 at 6:07 PM Post #3,149 of 6,504
Jawed, I agree with you that there are changes in the body due to different conditions of fatigue or other. For example when I am very tired I feel less basses ... but this is a condition that I know well. Regarding to the two or three hours I made many tests, in different physical situations, and the result was always the same, so I'm pretty sure.
 

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