[Ichos]

As a matter of interest, which FR graphs do people with the HD660S and HD650 feel best represent what they hear?

I think that the Solderdude graphs are spot on

Green - 660S
Purple - 600
Orange - 650

They are smoothed and not raw.

 

[Mike F]

I think that the Solderdude graphs are spot on


Green - 660S
Purple - 600
Orange - 650

They are smoothed and not raw.

Thanks! I’ve seen that graph and read his article which I think is very good. It also, I think, explains why I’m hearing more detail on the HD650 than the HD660S. Here’s what he says next to that graph:-

When comparing directly we can see the HD600 is the ‘brightest’ of the bunch followed by the HD650 which really only has a few dB more upper-bass/lower mids in other words ‘warmth’. The HD660S has the ‘warmth’ of the HD650 but less clarity/presence and slightly less treble.

Much of the low level detail (perhaps all) that I feel I’m missing in the HD660S exists in the 2-10 kHz range. I would say that the above graph explains what I’m (not) hearing.

 

[CaptainFantastic]

Thanks! I’ve seen that graph and read his article which I think is very good. It also, I think, explains why I’m hearing more detail on the HD650 than the HD660S. Here’s what he says next to that graph:-

When comparing directly we can see the HD600 is the ‘brightest’ of the bunch followed by the HD650 which really only has a few dB more upper-bass/lower mids in other words ‘warmth’. The HD660S has the ‘warmth’ of the HD650 but less clarity/presence and slightly less treble.

Much of the low level detail (perhaps all) that I feel I’m missing in the HD660S exists in the 2-10 kHz range. I would say that the above graph explains what I’m (not) hearing.

So where does the "sparkle" in the 660S come from, from which frequency range? I heard it and was annoyed by it, yet on the same tracks the 600 and 650 were pleasant.

 

[Ichos]

The sparkle is because the 2-4Khz region is very recessed to the higher treble so it is more audible the latter.
And that's why some people find the HD650 annoyingly forward in this region.
The 660S is not missing information on the 2-5KHz region it's just not in you face.
But compared A/B to the 650 you may find it lacking.
When accustomed to the sound of 660S without comparing then there is nothing missing , it all there but not at your face.

 

[GearMe]

Thanks! I’ve seen that graph and read his article which I think is very good. It also, I think, explains why I’m hearing more detail on the HD650 than the HD660S. Here’s what he says next to that graph:-

When comparing directly we can see the HD600 is the ‘brightest’ of the bunch followed by the HD650 which really only has a few dB more upper-bass/lower mids in other words ‘warmth’. The HD660S has the ‘warmth’ of the HD650 but less clarity/presence and slightly less treble.

Much of the low level detail (perhaps all) that I feel I’m missing in the HD660S exists in the 2-10 kHz range. I would say that the above graph explains what I’m (not) hearing.

Hmmm...now I'm wondering if my 'Sennheiser Renewed" HD660s were really a 'bad' set of cans at all -- that graph seems to align well with the way I heard them.

Am guessing that we might have some overlap in how we 'hear' a set of cans. FWIW, I typically used my 600s for listening to vocalist, solo piano/acoustic guitar and chamber-ish music. Used the 650s for Jazz, Blues, Rock, full on Orchestral...

Was really dumb to let the 650s go...gotta get another set of them (or 6XXs)!

 

[Mike F]

So where does the "sparkle" in the 660S come from, from which frequency range? I heard it and was annoyed by it, yet on the same tracks the 600 and 650 were pleasant.

Good question. My interpretation is that although FR curves tell how much of any given frequency is present, they tell you little about how a transducer will sound. From what I’m hearing, and in conjunction then with what I see in this graph (which I also believe to be accurate according to what I hear) I’m lead to believe that the ‘brightness’ which many people hear in the HD660S, which you perceived as being annoying and others also hear partly as grain, is inherent in the driver. Some might hear it as detail and sparkle, but I just think it’s a characteristic of the driver. Don’t forget that headphones with very similar frequency response graphs can sound much brighter or darker than one another. I’m sure the reason why I hear more detail in the HD650 in the 2-10 kHz range is simply because there is more present. At the same time, the driver is inherently much smoother than the HD660S’s (one of the benefits of 300 ohm as opposed to 150 ohm) which leads some people to hear the HD660S as more detailed in the same region. As a matter of fact there is very little musical information above 10 kHz. The sizzle that you get from ride cymbals is mostly around 8 kHz. Anything above 10 kHz is mostly ‘air’.

 

[Mike F]

The sparkle is because the 2-4Khz region is very recessed to the higher treble so it is more audible the latter.......

The 660S is not missing information on the 2-5KHz region it's just not in you face.
But compared A/B to the 650 you may find it lacking........

When accustomed to the sound of 660S without comparing then there is nothing missing , it all there but not at your face.

The HD650 is indeed relatively flat, which is one of the reasons that it’s more suited to professional use.

A/B comparison is exactly what we’re doing here. To me it’s subjectively lacking as well as being objectively less.

You can get used to anything (), and I never, previously, heard anybody describe the HD650 as being ‘in your face’ !

Seriously, the HD660S is an excellent headphone. The question is, is it better than the HD650? For some, evidently it is, but objectively..........?

 

[pietcux]

Of course. The thing that's great about the 660s is that it basically eliminates the need for Senn fans to have a home system, completely. If you have that type of system it's nice and will work fine, but Senn opened up the game for DAP users. These phones work beautifully on DAPs, even my low powered NW-A35. Def can't say the same for 6xx.

I can second that. Even though I have the Sennheiser HDVA 600 and own a balanced XLR cable, I rarely use it. I prefer the WM1A DAP for convenience.

 

[Ichos]

@Mike F
Unfortunately there is no objectivity in this hobby.
If the 650 is better for you then it is , that simple!
Even professionals from what I am reading , heavily disagree as which headphone on the planet is better for mixing and their opinion may severely vary as opposed to that of Sonarworks.
If it was one headphone the best then we would already know it.

For example regarding the drivers you mentioned from my subjective point of view the 650 driver can't handle properly the reverb and the decay of various percussion instruments be it bass or high pitched.
It's just to slow.

 

[G0rt]

@Mike F
Unfortunately there is no objectivity in this hobby.
If the 650 is better for you then it is , that simple!
Even professionals from what I am reading , heavily disagree as which headphone on the planet is better for mixing and their opinion may severely vary as opposed to that of Sonarworks.
If it was one headphone the best then we would already know it.

For example regarding the drivers you mentioned from my subjective point of view the 650 driver can't handle properly the reverb and the decay of various percussion instruments be it bass or high pitched.
It's just to slow.

There's another weird aspect as well, that objective defects can deliver subjective benefits.

I've seen data that shows clearly a distinct difference between dynamic and planar drivers WRT impulse response, in that planars generally exhibit less ringing.

That can sound, subjectively, either dull or clear and balanced, but either way, it's an element provided by a dynamic transducer which isn't in the music, but which can suggest the quality of a live performance that may not actually get well recorded.

I've also seen impressions from a musician whose opinion I respect, that that 6kHz spike found in HD800, because it falls about the 2nd harmonic of important fundamentals of a violin, actually contributes to the realism of violins heard with it. HD800S, lacking that spike, sounds less accurate.

Now that's interesting, as the harmonic complexity of acoustic instruments is tricky to record accurately, and what you hear just a few feet away from a performer, in some arbitrary direction, may be significantly different than what you get from close or contact miking, so a live performance isn't always approximated.

Probably similar, I found my custom open baffles sounded more 'interesting' when I removed the zobel networks. Cheap tricks...

 

[Mike F]

@Mike F
Unfortunately there is no objectivity in this hobby.
If the 650 is better for you then it is , that simple!
Even professionals from what I am reading , heavily disagree as which headphone on the planet is better for mixing and their opinion may severely vary as opposed to that of Sonarworks.
If it was one headphone the best then we would already know it.

For example regarding the drivers you mentioned from my subjective point of view the 650 driver can't handle properly the reverb and the decay of various percussion instruments be it bass or high pitched.
It's just to slow.

Ichos, I totally agree that there is no objectivity, but when people start to talk about ‘technicalities’ it makes it sound as though there is - or rather, that they think there is. And indeed, on paper the HD660S is technically better than the HD650, but as you know yourself, technically better on paper doesn’t mean musically or subjectivity better, which is why you sold your HD800S and kept the HD660S!

 

[Ichos]

@G0rt

Music recording and reproduction is very complicated and we are still learning.
There is no thing such ''as live'' performance especially with headphones.
Even the most expensive system i have heard with both analogue and digital sources and huge speakers was
miles away from the real thing.

 

[G0rt]

@G0rt

Music recording and reproduction is very complicated and we are still learning.
There is no thing such ''as live'' performance especially with headphones.
Even the most expensive system i have heard with both analogue and digital sources and huge speakers was
miles away from the real thing.

Just so, and yet the 'fidelity' part of 'high-fidelity' is precisely the aspiration to get as close as possible, however much that is.

And opinions vary...

For example, although the absolute frequency response of my OB dipoles is not terribly impressive, at least on the down low, I find them more convincing than anything else I've heard, because they leverage reflections, which are a big part of every live performance I've ever heard.

 

[Mike F]

@Mike F
For example regarding the drivers you mentioned from my subjective point of view the 650 driver can't handle properly the reverb and the decay of various percussion instruments be it bass or high pitched.
It's just to slow.

Ichos, could you possibly suggest an example where I might hear that (preferably on the Internet with a link). I’d still like to find an excuse to keep the HD660S anyway!

 

[Ichos]