[Andrew LB]

yes, the HD650 is magical off an OTL tube amp.

it's really quite good off any competent amp--you won't be unhappy or thinking, "something's wrong here." But when you hear it on an OTL tube amp, it's "NOW I understand!"

Ever since I got my HD6xx in March, i've been kicking myself every day since for selling my Antique Sound Lab MG-Head OTL tube amp.

 

[metsat]

I will receive my HD6XX in September hopefully sooner. I will drive them with Objective 2 + ODAC Combo RevB that works great with my HD600.

 

[WilliamLeonhart]

Ever since I got my HD6xx in March, i've been kicking myself every day since for selling my Antique Sound Lab MG-Head OTL tube amp.

But you've got a Little Dot? Is the MG-Head much better?

I will receive my HD6XX in September hopefully sooner. I will drive them with Objective 2 + ODAC Combo RevB that works great with my HD600.

Tbh even though I like the O2 a lot I've never thought of it as a good pairing for the HD6 headphones. Something was just lacking about it, and in some cases, it was power. I had a JDS one that could not drive them to listenable volume and Mayflower one that had clipping whenever it's on high gain.

 

[theworstguy]

But you've got a Little Dot? Is the MG-Head much better?

Tbh even though I like the O2 a lot I've never thought of it as a good pairing for the HD6 headphones. Something was just lacking about it, and in some cases, it was power. I had a JDS one that could not drive them to listenable volume and Mayflower one that had clipping whenever it's on high gain.

What did you end up settling on to drive them?

 

[bcaulf17]

I'm diving in to a pretty populated thread here with a question that has probably been asked several times so don't hurt me

I've read so much about these Sennheiser headphones, there's something about them that I'm drawn to. Reference sound (HD600), warmth (HD650), comfort, they'd probably be my first and only headphone if it weren't for my limitations. Most of my listening is at work and I don't have an amp, and my budget is around $300. I started with the M50x but moved up to the Beoplay H6 a couple of months ago, after first getting the DT 770 Pro and not liking them (treble was too much for me). I think it's great, but my curiosity towards the Senns still lingers, and all the talk about them has me thinking. They seem quite desirable.

I'm considering starting a home setup with a small amp and one of these headphones, while I use the H6 for everything else; listening in a room with others, at work, on the go, etc. I've also never owned an open back, and would like something closer to reference quality. What I understand is that the HD600 is closest to reference of the HD series, while the HD650/6XX is close but a little warm colored for easier listening, something I value. I'm driven most towards that one, because if I wait for a Massdrop I can get it for $199 which is a great price. I don't know as much about the 660 S and the new HD58X Jubilee. How do those compare to the HD600/HD650(XX)?

Anyway, asking out of curiosity, because it would be a while before this happens!

 

[metsat]

Tbh even though I like the O2 a lot I've never thought of it as a good pairing for the HD6 headphones. Something was just lacking about it, and in some cases, it was power. I had a JDS one that could not drive them to listenable volume and Mayflower one that had clipping whenever it's on high gain.

I have to disagree. I have the JDS one and it has plenty of power to drive the HD600, especially on high gain. And it sounds great to my ears. I've never had the Mayflower one so I could not comment on the clipping.

 

[Pharmaboy]

I'm diving in to a pretty populated thread here with a question that has probably been asked several times so don't hurt me

I've read so much about these Sennheiser headphones, there's something about them that I'm drawn to. Reference sound (HD600), warmth (HD650), comfort, they'd probably be my first and only headphone if it weren't for my limitations. Most of my listening is at work and I don't have an amp, and my budget is around $300. I started with the M50x but moved up to the Beoplay H6 a couple of months ago, after first getting the DT 770 Pro and not liking them (treble was too much for me). I think it's great, but my curiosity towards the Senns still lingers, and all the talk about them has me thinking. They seem quite desirable.

I'm considering starting a home setup with a small amp and one of these headphones, while I use the H6 for everything else; listening in a room with others, at work, on the go, etc. I've also never owned an open back, and would like something closer to reference quality. What I understand is that the HD600 is closest to reference of the HD series, while the HD650/6XX is close but a little warm colored for easier listening, something I value. I'm driven most towards that one, because if I wait for a Massdrop I can get it for $199 which is a great price. I don't know as much about the 660 S and the new HD58X Jubilee. How do those compare to the HD600/HD650(XX)?

Anyway, asking out of curiosity, because it would be a while before this happens!

I've done a lot of listening lately to the stock HD650 and an extensive mod of it ("J-Mod"), with review just published on results. I'd like to share a couple observations about the HD650:

1. It's a really good sounding headphone. I could happily live with the HD650. The "voicing" of it (somewhat warm, but not offensively so) suits me perfectly; it's a reasonably resolving design with intimate but precise soundstage, and it's very easy to drive.

2. Re sources, I did all my listening with an NOS/multibit DAC (Audio GD NOS-19), plus brief listening on the straight multibit variant, DAC-19. I loved the sound. Still, anyone with a reasonably good delta/sigma DAC may get even a bit more resolution & treble out of the HD650 than I did.

3. I found the HD650 to be surprising amp-agnostic. It sounded quite good on 4 solid state amps, including great sound from my least expensive/least powerful one, the M Stage Matrix HPA-1 (with the most musical opamp I've yet tried, the OPA827s).

4. Re comfort, there's too much clamp at first, but when you stretch them out, they slowly give up some tension and become just right. This headphone has a compact/attractive frame...not the kind of headphones that make you look like an air-traffic controller or space station jockey.

5. I haven't heard the Massdrop 6XX, but many others on Head-Fi have, and the consensus of opinion is that it is slightly different in sound--a bit more upper midrange and treble (not a bad thing at all). It's certainly cheaper than the stock HD650. I don't think you could really go wrong with either.

I've heard the HD600 and didn't much care for it. Found the midrange to be somewhat elevated (a "shouty" sound), which is not to my liking.

(all IMO/on my system...YMMV)

 

[WilliamLeonhart]

I have to disagree. I have the JDS one and it has plenty of power to drive the HD600, especially on high gain. And it sounds great to my ears. I've never had the Mayflower one so I could not comment on the clipping.

The thing is there are (or used to be?) not just "the JDS one", but 3 of them. Mine perhaps had 1.5x or 3.5x as high gain. If my memory serves, the Mayflower had 5x gain.

What did you end up settling on to drive them?

Burson Play and a DIY tube amp which are quite similar to the Little Dot mk3/mk4. Many of my older stuffs could drive them quite well, such as the Hugo or the iDSD Micro.

 

[jimmers]

... Mine perhaps had 1.5x or 3.5x as high gain. If my memory serves, the Mayflower had 5x gain...

With the O2 high gain is only for low signals like from a phone or iPod, with a normal DAC output (2V rms) use low gain and as much volume control as you need, with 2V rms and gain 5x the O2 will always clip when the music gets loud no matter where you have the volume control.
Read designer nwavguy's blog if you need an explanation.

I've noticed that some of the people marketing his design do not necessarily understand it and have in the past given incorrect information to their customers.

 

[WilliamLeonhart]

With the O2 high gain is only for low signals like from a phone or iPod, with a normal DAC output (2V rms) use low gain and as much volume control as you need, with 2V rms and gain 5x the O2 will always clip when the music gets loud no matter where you have the volume control.
Read designer nwavguy's blog if you need an explanation.

I've noticed that some of the people marketing his design do not necessarily understand it and have in the past given incorrect information to their customers.

Well that is the problem with the Mayflower unit. I think it was the people in the O2/ODAC that told me the same thing. And yes even though they shared the same chasis no matter at what volume there will be clipping on high gain.

But then what buffles me is the current JDS O2 has 6.5x gain. How do they achieve that without clipping?

 

[jimmers]

Well that is the problem with the Mayflower unit. I think it was the people in the O2/ODAC that told me the same thing. And yes even though they shared the same chasis no matter at what volume there will be clipping on high gain.

But then what buffles me is the current JDS O2 has 6.5x gain. How do they achieve that without clipping?

Use low gain, 2.5x, for a 2V rms DAC and high gain, 6.5x, for lower output sources < 1V rms max.
Having the volume knob wound up high won't cause harm as it functions purely as an attenuator the signal then going to a unity gain buffer.

 

[castleofargh]

Well that is the problem with the Mayflower unit. I think it was the people in the O2/ODAC that told me the same thing. And yes even though they shared the same chasis no matter at what volume there will be clipping on high gain.

But then what buffles me is the current JDS O2 has 6.5x gain. How do they achieve that without clipping?

the original design for the amp was to push everything to a nominal level right away to get the best possible signal to noise ratio(for that cheapo design). and it worked very well for that intent but of course said nominal level has to be close to the max(and then the volume knob attenuates it to the desired volume). if you feed your amp with an old ipod or sony DAP which often wouldn't even reach 0.4V at the output, 6.5x0.4=2.6V . so long as the design is fine with that level and whatever load(headphone) is plugged, you're fine. of course having a nominal behavior that way does not ensure you'll still have a good result if you feed the amp with 2V or more from the start and still ask it to multiply that by 6.5. because this amp was never designed to output 13V or even more, it cannot do it.

here are the limits as given by the nwavguy(if you say his name 3 times in a mirror, someone will call you his minion. the curse is real!):
on battery, for those who can't read ^_^

with AC


so you have really simple math to tell you what will happen. take the full scale voltage of your source/DAC, multiply by your gain and if it's below the limits given here for your load(headphone), you're good. those who don't plan to use such amp on crappy portable sources, clearly don't need a 6.5X gain. maybe the 6.5X gain should have simply be labelled "only use for weak ass sources!". not that the average audiophile understands what a gain switch is for in the first place. if it was always just a second volume knob going "turbo", instead we'd all have amps with a volume knob going to 11 and no gain switch. sometimes it's as simple as making the volume knob more convenient to use under various conditions, and sometimes the purpose is clearly electrical.

I'm personally at unity gain with the HD650 and feeding the amp with the old odac or some other stuff set around 2V(so that I don't jump from my chair when I change gears^_^), and I've always achieved satisfying loudness that way, but I know that I'm a quiet listener. if audio meetings made one thing clear, that's it. maxed out I peak close to 110dB SPL and that's a level where I would probably use the hd650 as speaker instead of putting it on my head(although the bass sucks on hd650 speakers)
with 2.5X gain and feeding 2V that's above 115dB into the hd650. which is a typical reference used to decide if an amplifier will go loud enough for all our uses with a given headphone. this amp clearly can do it under normal use and proper voltage input+gain setting.

 

[Anarion]

Tbh even though I like the O2 a lot I've never thought of it as a good pairing for the HD6 headphones. Something was just lacking about it, and in some cases, it was power. I had a JDS one that could not drive them to listenable volume and Mayflower one that had clipping whenever it's on high gain.

I have O2 too (with 1x & 3,3x gain - there's literally not reason to use the high gain option because the AE-5 has really strong line out already) and wouldn't recommend it either. Power is not the problem but the actual quality. There are two rather big flaws compared to Sound BlasterX AE-5 for example: stereo crosstalk and dynamic range. Both are really lacking so in practice soundstage and stereo imaging is noticeably worse and things sound more compressed.

 

[Numz]

Hi I'm new to the audiophile world and would really appreciate some advice with my HD 650s.

I've been trying my new Sennheiser HD 650s on my JDS Labs Element and my SoundBlaster Zx. Much to my surprise I have not been able to tell much of a difference in superior sound quality from the Element vs the SB Zx. My listening has been done with Amazon Prime music and a few local audio files (320 kb/s 44.1 kHz). They both sound good but neither make me feel like the audio stands out.

I'm now considering returning the Element and trying out Schiit products. I've considered Modi2 Uber Magni 3 stack. I've done some reading saying that the Modi 2 DAC alone might not be noticeable to the SoundBlaster DAC. With that in mind maybe getting just an amp stepped up from the Magni 3, maybe an Asguard2 might be a better investment vs including a new DAC.

I'm not sure what to do b/c the consensus online is that an Element should crap on a SB Zx but it has not been the case for me. Would getting just a Magni 3 be enough to make my sound quality much better than the SB Zx alone? Do I need the Modi2 Uber DAC as well? Would getting just a more expensive amp than the Magni 3 and leaving out the DAC be a better overall sound quality upgrade?

What are your suggestions?

Thanks in advanced!

 

[WilliamLeonhart]

the original design for the amp was to push everything to a nominal level right away to get the best possible signal to noise ratio(for that cheapo design). and it worked very well for that intent but of course said nominal level has to be close to the max(and then the volume knob attenuates it to the desired volume). if you feed your amp with an old ipod or sony DAP which often wouldn't even reach 0.4V at the output, 6.5x0.4=2.6V . so long as the design is fine with that level and whatever load(headphone) is plugged, you're fine. of course having a nominal behavior that way does not ensure you'll still have a good result if you feed the amp with 2V or more from the start and still ask it to multiply that by 6.5. because this amp was never designed to output 13V or even more, it cannot do it.

here are the limits as given by the nwavguy(if you say his name 3 times in a mirror, someone will call you his minion. the curse is real!):
on battery, for those who can't read ^_^

with AC


so you have really simple math to tell you what will happen. take the full scale voltage of your source/DAC, multiply by your gain and if it's below the limits given here for your load(headphone), you're good. those who don't plan to use such amp on crappy portable sources, clearly don't need a 6.5X gain. maybe the 6.5X gain should have simply be labelled "only use for weak ass sources!". not that the average audiophile understands what a gain switch is for in the first place. if it was always just a second volume knob going "turbo", instead we'd all have amps with a volume knob going to 11 and no gain switch. sometimes it's as simple as making the volume knob more convenient to use under various conditions, and sometimes the purpose is clearly electrical.

I'm personally at unity gain with the HD650 and feeding the amp with the old odac or some other stuff set around 2V(so that I don't jump from my chair when I change gears^_^), and I've always achieved satisfying loudness that way, but I know that I'm a quiet listener. if audio meetings made one thing clear, that's it. maxed out I peak close to 110dB SPL and that's a level where I would probably use the hd650 as speaker instead of putting it on my head(although the bass sucks on hd650 speakers)
with 2.5X gain and feeding 2V that's above 115dB into the hd650. which is a typical reference used to decide if an amplifier will go loud enough for all our uses with a given headphone. this amp clearly can do it under normal use and proper voltage input+gain setting.

Yeah somehow I never thought of that. The O2 was supposed to drive other sources than just the ODAC... For me they always came hand in hand!

Hi I'm new to the audiophile world and would really appreciate some advice with my HD 650s.

I've been trying my new Sennheiser HD 650s on my JDS Labs Element and my SoundBlaster Zx. Much to my surprise I have not been able to tell much of a difference in superior sound quality from the Element vs the SB Zx. My listening has been done with Amazon Prime music and a few local audio files (320 kb/s 44.1 kHz). They both sound good but neither make me feel like the audio stands out.

I'm now considering returning the Element and trying out Schiit products. I've considered Modi2 Uber Magni 3 stack. I've done some reading saying that the Modi 2 DAC alone might not be noticeable to the SoundBlaster DAC. With that in mind maybe getting just an amp stepped up from the Magni 3, maybe an Asguard2 might be a better investment vs including a new DAC.

I'm not sure what to do b/c the consensus online is that an Element should crap on a SB Zx but it has not been the case for me. Would getting just a Magni 3 be enough to make my sound quality much better than the SB Zx alone? Do I need the Modi2 Uber DAC as well? Would getting just a more expensive amp than the Magni 3 and leaving out the DAC be a better overall sound quality upgrade?

What are your suggestions?

Thanks in advanced!

I am not surprised to hear your findings. I didn't spend a lot of time on the Element but I didn't feel it was different enough from the famed O2/ODAC, which you may have noticed from our discussion above. The Magni Modi are not too different from the O2/ODAC, speaking from my experiences. All of these (and the O2/ODAC and the Element) didn't make my HD650 truly sing. I just felt something was lacking with it.

What I did like is the Modi Multibit, it surely is a good DAC that really stands out from the other Modi. For amp I suggest you look into the Burson Fun - Burson amps are made for HD6 series. Or you can get a basic Burson Play, DAC and amp included. I'm using the Play with my HD6xx. Or if you'd like something entirely different, try some OTL amps like those from Little Dot (just not the I+ though).

Regardless, it is best if you can find an audio shop to do some auditioning. Upgrading DAC/amp is a tricky business, because the differences are always harder to notice than when you're switching headphones.

PS: You'd hear more of a difference by upgrading amp than upgrading DAC. So if your SoundBlaster has a line out, consider buying a bettery amp.