[LazyListener]

  I seriously don't get how you guys think MD is getting full-quality regular-build $499 MSRP HD650s and selling them for $200 but okay... 

Because the 650 was already "overpriced" at MSRP when it came out years ago.  They probably cost less than $100 to make, and over time, production costs tend to go down.  The 650 is also a headphone that sells with virtually zero marketing/advertising costs by Sennheiser.  Marketing/advertising tends to make up a big chunk of a product's costs, but not so with most headphones.  The fact is, most headphones are way overpriced when you consider only production costs.  R&D costs are pretty big, too, but Senn has been doing R&D for decades and a lot of what they already knew went into the 650.  Probably not much new R&D went into 650, and any that did has been already recouped over the long time the 650 has been on the market.  That's another plus on headphones.  Make a good one, and it'll sell well on the market for many, many years.  No need to make a new model every few years and the associated costs that go with that.

 

[penmarker]

 
Because the 650 was already "overpriced" at MSRP when it came out years ago.  They probably cost less than $100 to make, and over time, production costs tend to go down.  The 650 is also a headphone that sells with virtually zero marketing/advertising costs by Sennheiser.  Marketing/advertising tends to make up a big chunk of a product's costs, but not so with most headphones.  The fact is, most headphones are way overpriced when you consider only production costs.  R&D costs are pretty big, too, but Senn has been doing R&D for decades and a lot of what they already knew went into the 650.  Probably not much new R&D went into 650, and any that did has been already recouped over the long time the 650 has been on the market.  That's another plus on headphones.  Make a good one, and it'll sell well on the market for many, many years.  No need to make a new model every few years and the associated costs that go with that.

Things should be sold for what they are worth, and the HD650 is worth their asking price. Period.

On a business point of view, if you own a restaurant for instance your dish must be sold at least 3X the cost; 1 for the cost, 1 for upkeep/operational cost, 1 for profit. 
We can't look at the manufacturing cost and say "Oh it probably costs only $100 to manufacture, just charge $150 for it and you'll already be making $50 per pair." That's good if you don't want a company to last long. A business is a business. It's not only the "manufacturing" that's working. There's administration, sales, marketing, R&D, logistics, customer support, supplier, and so on and so forth. Good luck feeding all those people with that $50/pair profit.

 

[Solrighal]

  HD650 has a little bit of veil. If you listen to something with more treble, like a T1 or HE-500, it is obvious when you switch between them. But, that's just part of its sound. If you come from warmer headphones, maybe you won't notice much a veil. They are just laid back headphones in treble. If you are used to more treble, it sounds a little hazy/veiled.
 
It's not a horrible veil where they are really badly lacking treble or anything, they just kinda roll off and don't have much of a treble emphasis. They are a smooth, warm sounding headphone.

 
Not having "treble emphasis" does not equate to being veiled. It is that treble emphasis that is - quite evidently - the colouring problem.
 
Please let's stop going around in circles.
 

 

[LazyListener]

  Things should be sold for what they are worth, and the HD650 is worth their asking price. Period.

On a business point of view, if you own a restaurant for instance your dish must be sold at least 3X the cost; 1 for the cost, 1 for upkeep/operational cost, 1 for profit. 
We can't look at the manufacturing cost and say "Oh it probably costs only $100 to manufacture, just charge $150 for it and you'll already be making $50 per pair." That's good if you don't want a company to last long. A business is a business. It's not only the "manufacturing" that's working. There's administration, sales, marketing, R&D, logistics, customer support, supplier, and so on and so forth. Good luck feeding all those people with that $50/pair profit.

Don't disagree with you at all.  That's why I put overpriced in quotes.  It's not really overpriced.  It costs what it costs and what Senn feels will yield them the most profit.  I was just making specific points about costs like Marketing/Advertising and R&D.  There, of course, are other costs.

 

[Solrighal]

  Things should be sold for what they are worth, and the HD650 is worth their asking price. Period.

On a business point of view, if you own a restaurant for instance your dish must be sold at least 3X the cost; 1 for the cost, 1 for upkeep/operational cost, 1 for profit. 
We can't look at the manufacturing cost and say "Oh it probably costs only $100 to manufacture, just charge $150 for it and you'll already be making $50 per pair." That's good if you don't want a company to last long. A business is a business. It's not only the "manufacturing" that's working. There's administration, sales, marketing, R&D, logistics, customer support, supplier, and so on and so forth. Good luck feeding all those people with that $50/pair profit.

 
An items worth is determined by the potential purchaser, nothing else. A product is worth whatever anyone is prepared to pay for it. This rarely has anything to do with production costs or sales overheads.

 

[LazyListener]

   
Not having "treble emphasis" does not equate to being veiled. It is that treble emphasis that is - quite evidently - the colouring problem.
 
Please let's stop going around in circles.
 

The real problem is "what is neutral/flat?"  There is no standard.  Purely subjective.  If we had a universal reference of what a flat response was, then we can measure and say if something has treble emphasis or if it's veiled.

 

[kman1211]

Why would Sennheiser agree to offload b-stock or rejected parts in the 6XX at an obviously reduced profit margin per set, and still back it with the standard 2 year Sennheiser warranty?  Your theory doesn't add up.  I think the more likely reason Sennheiser and other brands do the Massdrops is exactly because of guaranteed massive bulk sales.  Manufacturers do this all the time.  They're willing to accept a lower per unit profit margin, if it means they get to dramatically boost sales and sell tons and tons more units.  It's probably as simple as that.

I haven't personally compared the HD 6XX to the HD 650, but unlike the AKGs at least the Senns are still made in the same country as what it's based on, it is possible the drivers aren't held to quite the same standards, but considering unit variation and without testing a decent amount of them it is hard to say for sure. The problem with the K7XX it's made in China not Austria and it was rather obvious it was of lesser quality than the Austrian made ones in direct comparison, cheaper plastics, looser fit, etc. But honestly AKG that was a company slowly ruined by Harman, they would probably be more competitive now if they were never bought out.

 

[penmarker]

   
An items worth is determined by the potential purchaser, nothing else. A product is worth whatever anyone is prepared to pay for it. This rarely has anything to do with production costs or sales overheads.

This does make a lot of sense and I do agree with you. But looking at a broader spectrum of products not limited to things with boutique brands, production costs and sales overheads always get factored into the pricing. This is true especially when a product doesn't have a lot of difference in terms of quality or does only one thing within a range compared to their competitors. Like powertools, sure there are $1000 buck saws and $200 buck saws, but when you take them both apart you can see where the money went. One is precision CNC hardened gears with proper molybdenum disulfate grease, and balanced motor and the likes whereas the other one is just plastic cooling fins with chinched power cables in Chinese safety standard stamped trigger switch. Headphones however, hoo-ey. We got a bunch that now costs upwards of $3000 when there are people who had compared them with cheaper ones and preferring the cheaper ones. And they all do exactly one thing.
 
Yeah. I don't know. YMMV. Let your wallets do the talking I guess.

 

[Levanter]

I don't find HD650 veiled either, but my definition of veil might be different to others. Lack of sparkle/rolled off treble at top? yes, but I don't consider that attribute as veiled.
I do find AK Layla to be veiled though, so that is my definition of veil

 

[ubs28]

The real problem is "what is neutral/flat?"  There is no standard.  Purely subjective.  If we had a universal reference of what a flat response was, then we can measure and say if something has treble emphasis or if it's veiled.

The veil doesn't come from the frequency response but due to the lack of speed and clarity of the drivers.

I have darker headphones / IEM's that sound clearer than the HD 650.

 

[LazyListener]

The veil doesn't come from the frequency response but due to the lack of speed and clarity of the drivers.

I have darker headphones / IEM's that sound clearer than the HD 650.

Veil is a very subjective term.  I don't think the 650 are lacking in clarity.  I personally think the 650 veil some people mention is directly related to its frequency response.  There may be other related factors, like driver precision, accuracy, and control, or possibly how sound waves are interacting in the earcup, with more or less of these factors contributing to the veil depending on the amplifier used.

 

[dakanao]

They aren't veiled at all. Heck, they're one of the clearest headphones I've heard, definitely the CLEANEST  (i.e no grain at all).
 
The Nad Viso HP50, Focal Spirit Pro and Sennheiser Momentum all have WAY less clarity than the HD 650.
 
Even when coming from the HE-400i to the HD 650, they still sounded clear and not veiled.

 

[ButtUglyJeff]

When I hear someone say the HD650 is veiled, I check out their amplification.  I usually find my answer...

 

[LazyListener]

  When I hear someone say the HD650 is veiled, I check out their amplification.  I usually find my answer...

Yup.  Since the amp is responsible for how precisely or accurately the driver is controlled, that may possibly affect clarity.

 

[TWerk]

  They aren't veiled at all. Heck, they're one of the clearest headphones I've heard, definitely the CLEANEST  (i.e no grain at all).
 
The Nad Viso HP50, Focal Spirit Pro and Sennheiser Momentum all have WAY less clarity than the HD 650.
 
Even when coming from the HE-400i to the HD 650, they still sounded clear and not veiled.

 
If you think they are the clearest headphones try a T1 V1. That's a clear, fast headphone.