[ns6490]

 
I guess it all depends on how you define "sufficiently distinguishable" what's sufficient for me would probably not be for you.

 
I agree with you 100%, of course, that people will have different subjective experiences and thresholds. 
 
But it amuses me when I read subjective impressions couched in language that tries to be authoritative and objective, such as with Item X "the bass achieved deeper extension, the highs became airier and more refined, and the soundstage opened up considerably." Yet these ardent hifi prosaists become zealous skeptics when it comes to using some measurements to try to quantify some of these perceived differences.
 
For the most part, hifi is a harmless hobby. But the amusement turns to sadness when I read posts by struggling college students who scrape up every dollar they have to upgrade an amp or a cable that they've been led to believe will bring an orgasmic improvement. That simply has never been the case for me, and scientific testing seems to agree with my experience.

 

[Bugler]

Wouldn't putting cheap ear pads on a HD650 be like putting Pep Boys tires on a Jaguar? I really wouldn't want to give up sound quality to save a few bucks. Buy them from Sennheiser.

 

[keanex]

  RE: the earpads.
 
Sennheiser's website lists them at $42 for a pair, but have been out of stock for a long while. 
 
In the meantime, HeadRoom has rather distastefully priced them at $70/pair. Never mind the question of how Sennheiser manages to be out of stock while its distributors aren't.
 
Two thoughts: 1)I'll probaby never purchase from HeadRoom again 2) I'm inclined to buy earpads from ebay out of principle.

You're wondering why earpads at 2x the cost aren't sold out? Cmon now.

 

[ns6490]

  You're wondering why earpads at 2x the cost aren't sold out? Cmon now.

 
They haven't been in stock for a long time. Not really an issue of supply and demand as you suggest.

 

[donlin]

   
I agree with you 100%, of course, that people will have different subjective experiences and thresholds. 
 
But it amuses me when I read subjective impressions couched in language that tries to be authoritative and objective, such as with Item X "the bass achieved deeper extension, the highs became airier and more refined, and the soundstage opened up considerably." Yet these ardent hifi prosaists become zealous skeptics when it comes to using some measurements to try to quantify some of these perceived differences.
 
For the most part, hifi is a harmless hobby. But the amusement turns to sadness when I read posts by struggling college students who scrape up every dollar they have to upgrade an amp or a cable that they've been led to believe will bring an orgasmic improvement. That simply has never been the case for me, and scientific testing seems to agree with my experience.

I understand what you are saying about the struggling college student, but a beginner needs to learn somehow about realistic expectations about incremental improvements in their sound system.  I don't think long time listeners should be expected to temper their enthusiasm for fear of misleading somebody who hasn't developed a realistic frame of reference.  I know I went though it many years ago, but stuck with it and learned to gage the level of improvements being described by reviewers with a lot more experience than me.  The ultimate goal is to get to the point where you can trust your own ears enough to not totally rely on others opinions about what good sound is.

 

[ns6490]

 
I understand what you are saying about the struggling college student, but a beginner needs to learn somehow about realistic expectations about incremental improvements in their sound system.  I don't think long time listeners should be expected to temper their enthusiasm for fear of misleading somebody who hasn't developed a realistic frame of reference.  I know I went though it many years ago, but stuck with it and learned to gage the level of improvements being described by reviewers with a lot more experience than me.  The ultimate goal is to get to the point where you can trust your own ears enough to not totally rely on others opinions about what good sound is.

 
donlin, I have really enjoyed many of your posts in this thread and hope I am not causing you offense with this. After seeing several comments from you in this thread that you came to prefer HD650 over much more expensive headphones, I was curious to see what you had to say about other cans and their relative merits and weaknesses. 
 
I came across your posts such as this one from fewer than three months ago,
 
http://www.head-fi.org/t/574616/the-audeze-lcd-2-ortho-thread-new/6660#post_11001370
 

 IMO that is NOT an accurate statement.  The LCD-2 is substantially better than the 650 in any area (and I was a huge 650 fan when it came out).  The extra money takes you to a different level of quality.

 
Unless you particularly enjoy slumming with the HD650s, it seems to me that your renewed enthusiasm for these headphones has more to do with subjective vagaries than objective quality. I'm not criticizing you; merely saying that "quality" and sonic attributes in hifi tend to be much more elusive than audiophiles like to admit. And I, too, have days when I think my 650s sound suffocating as well as ones when they inject shivers of pleasure down my spine. But I like to think that has more to do with my state of mind on a given day than the headphones themselves. 
 
Again, I respect your opinion and so hope that I haven't offended you by bringing up a past post of yours.

 

[castleofargh]

I have a deep deja vu moment.

 

[donlin]

   
donlin, I have really enjoyed many of your posts in this thread and hope I am not causing you offense with this. After seeing several comments from you in this thread that you came to prefer HD650 over much more expensive headphones, I was curious to see what you had to say about other cans and their relative merits and weaknesses. 
 
I came across your posts such as this one from fewer than three months ago,
 
http://www.head-fi.org/t/574616/the-audeze-lcd-2-ortho-thread-new/6660#post_11001370
 
 
Unless you particularly enjoy slumming with the HD650s, it seems to me that your renewed enthusiasm for these headphones has more to do with subjective vagaries than objective quality. I'm not criticizing you; merely saying that "quality" and sonic attributes in hifi tend to be much more elusive than audiophiles like to admit. And I, too, have days when I think my 650s sound suffocating as well as ones when they inject shivers of pleasure down my spine. But I like to think that has more to do with my state of mind on a given day than the headphones themselves. 
 
Again, I respect your opinion and so hope that I haven't offended you by bringing up a past post of yours.

No offense, it's a valid question (maybe I should be flattered that anybody even bothered to research anything I have had to say).  I've covered some of this history earlier in this thread.  I was a big 650 fan from the first day they came out but gradually started dabbling with the more expensive phones and eventually let the 650's go.  Over the next few years, I went from the HD800's to Stax 007's to LCD-2R2's (2 years), then the LCD3 for a year.  During that time, the Sennheiser amp became a favorite of mine with the LCD-3's.  In November, my favorite dealer Music Direct had a very good deal on 650's and the balanced cable, so just for the heck of it I got it to go along with my Sennheiser amp.  As I've said before, I never expected the 650's to sound better than the LCD-3's but they absolutely did.  I always suspected it was due to the great synergy between the Sennheiser amp and headphones but it sounded way better than I ever remembered it.  As time has passed over the past couple months, my enthusiasm for the 650's has not diminished at all.  My statement in the post you quoted was based on an old and incorrect memory of how the 650's sounded relative the flagships and I should not have made it so definitively.  However, I did a lot of actual comparison between the LCD-3 and the 650 and there was no doubt at the time I sold the LCD-3's.

 

[donlin]

One of the most interesting things for me in this process is that while I was totally expecting the 650's to sound terrible in comparison to what I was used to and was already feeling buyers remorse by the time I got home with them, I was able to ignore my preconceived bias and trust what I was actually hearing.

 

[Solrighal]

I blame the drugs. No, really.

 

[donlin]

I blame the drugs. No, really.

I wish there was a drug that always made cheaper gear sound better!

 

[JamieMcC]

I wish there was a drug that always made cheaper gear sound better!

I'll drink to that  *hic*
 

 

[donlin]

I hope you built the amp before you started drinking that stuff or it may not be safe to use.

 

[kramer5150]

   
I'd recommend giving Sennheiser's parts line a call.. I wouldn't be surprised if they actually have them in stock, but didn't update the website.. you can order over the phone, too.

x2... I talked to a gal on the phone when I ordered replacement HD650 drivers a year ago.  Felt really kind of strange in this day and online age to place a credit card order over the phone, with a live person... I hadn't done that in almost 2 decades!!

 

[Krutsch]

  I also experienced a huge difference upgrading to the WA2 which also uses Tung Sol 5998 tubes. Mine doesn't have 5998's right now, but with the 7236 tubes, I can completely agree with the soundstage opening up immensely. The ability to pinpoint individual instruments, count the number of back-up singers, or the number of times vocals have been overdubbed is a very noticeable thing. I also noticed instruments sound much more "real" - eg. drums carry the full weight of how they're being struck (hand, brush, or stick) and you hear the skin of the drum as well as the body of the physical drum itself. 
 
I understand your point completely about people exaggerating, but I believe it's possible to review sound changes this way. I'd love to hear your experiences with 5998s, or even a WA2 with a 7236 or 421A tube. From what I've read, these tubes produce these "layers" that just aren't there with 6080's or 6AS7G tubes.
 
Just my thoughts... haven't heard the Crack either, but I think I imagine it sounds somewhat like the WA2 with the HD-650's

FWIW, I complete agree with you... it was an ear-opening experience for me when changing out the stock tubes to the Tung Sol 7236 and then, later, to the 5998, the latter of which seemed to really open up the upper bass and lower mids; more punch, if you will.
 
Replacing my driver tubes was another real shocker; for me, anyway, from a clarity perspective. It was like putting on a new set of headphones for the first time.
 
Of course, all of this was sighted and I had high expectations with the Telefunken tubes, so all of this is likely in my head. But I personally have no doubt that the system I am listening to now is, well, in another league compared to what I was listening to a couple of months ago. And, it's made the HD-650s more listenable across a wider range of music. For me, that is... don't get me started on that last point.