[bracko]

  I don't think I'm ever going to see him again to ask for clarification, but why do you think he'd say that about sound stage? Maybe I misunderstood him, but I'm pretty sure I remember him saying that if high-quality dynamic drivers are used in a headphone, sound stage is simply an illusion created by how they are placed in the enclosure and their distance from the ears. This, he said, has little effect on the quality of sound... simply an illusion about where the sounds are coming from. May be desirable for some applications, may be unnecessary for others.
 
If this is an ignorant claim, I'd really like to know why.

It's not an ignorant claim. Sound stage and imaging are "illusions" created by our brain as a reaction to different cues in the sound presented through the headphones. One way of reinforcing those cues is to angle the drivers relative to our ears. A more resolving source or amp will also reinforce those cues. 

 

[ubs28]

  I don't think I'm ever going to see him again to ask for clarification, but why do you think he'd say that about sound stage? Maybe I misunderstood him, but I'm pretty sure I remember him saying that if high-quality dynamic drivers are used in a headphone, sound stage is simply an illusion created by how they are placed in the enclosure and their distance from the ears. This, he said, has little effect on the quality of sound... simply an illusion about where the sounds are coming from. May be desirable for some applications, may be unnecessary for others.
 
If this is an ignorant claim, I'd really like to know why.

I was disagreeing that soundstage is only the result of placement of the driver based on my experiences with studio monitors. The first studio monitor that I bought had limited imaging and soundstage in comparison to better models under the same exact placement. And I see no reason why that would be different for headphones?
 
The Shure SE846 (IEM) has similar soundstage (except for height) and imaging of the HD 650 while it's in your ear, which also suggests that perhaps there is more to it than just placement of the driver. 

 

[kman1211]

 
I was disagreeing that soundstage is only the result of placement of the driver based on my experiences with studio monitors. The first studio monitor that I bought had limited imaging and soundstage in comparison to better models under the same exact placement. And I see no reason why that would be different for headphones?
 
The Shure SE846 (IEM) has similar soundstage (except for height) and imaging of the HD 650 while it's in your ear, which also suggests that perhaps there is more to it than just placement of the driver. 

The HD 600 and HD 650 do image differently and they essentially have the same exact design with minor differences in dampening and different drivers, though it's the drivers themselves that make such a difference, something I confirmed by swapping drivers and listening to numerous different pairs(one thing is for sure Sennheiser is very good about consistency). The HD 650 was about average in terms of soundstage size among high-quality open-back headphones while the HD 600 was one of the most intimate over-ear open-backs I've heard. 

 

[yangian]

  To help get us get back on topic, I'll share a little anecdote. I recently visited a professional mastering engineer who works with a major symphony orchestra, with millions in the budget, and when I went into his studio to see some of his gear, I was happy to see a pair of HD 600 on his mastering desk. There were no other headphones around, except a few DT 770's in the recording room, for the musicians. I knew he could afford HD 800 and even more expensive headphones, so I asked him why he only used the 600. He said it was pure ignorance to believe sound stage is anything special... It simply is the way the drivers are positioned, and that affect is not always desirable, especially since it always creates sibilance issues and pushes the music farther from your ears. The point of using a headphone in addition to monitors is to bring the music closer to you, so you could work with it intimately. He basically thought the HD 600 was a better headphone that the HD 800, and didn't pay any attention to the price differences. He said he uses it a lot during mixing and mastering and sometimes even forgets what's playing - his monitors or the headphones. He said the 600's are natural sounding headphones and people shouldn't be afraid to mix/master almost entirely on them, and, according to him, they'd only really need monitors when checking for reverb, since headphones don't interact with the room.
 
He wasn't a headphone nut like most of us here, so he quickly changed the conversation and talked about other things even more enthusiastically (his mixing technique, how he deals with musicians during the recording process, how he takes detailed notes of everything happening in a notebook during takes, etc.). But I kept thinking about his HD 600 comments all evening. 

I don't have HD800 and have no opportunity to listen to it. But I really love the natural sound of HD600. The holistic sound are so natural that you can keep listening to one hour, two hours... five hours, eight hours without boring or fatigue. Though I don't have many full or inear phones, I have noticed many make me feel either boring or fatigure and I cannot listen to more than half an hour.

 

[MorrisL]

Well, then soundstage is some kind of mystery to me. I was convinced by his explanation, but I am not sure I buy it at this point, given the examples showed here about other headphones.
 
Hopefully somebody can explain what it's all about.
 
The only example the engineer gave was the DT 880/990 sound stage. He said the 880 has a narrower sound stage because less sound is able to escape the semi-open design, whereas the DT 990's soundstage is much wider, due to the fully open design. In every other respect those are the same headphone, according to him.
 
This sounded very convincing to me. I wish I could bring the example of HD600 vs HD650 soundstage right then! This is so confusing now...

 

[thefitz]

There is one thing that I don't understad when it comes to certain people's description of the sound signature of HD600s. Some say there is "veil" in the sound of HD600. Maybe it is my ears comming from HE500, but honestly I cannot see why the sound signature of the HD600 would be described as veiled (dark?). 

At the time it was released, ear stabby headphones were all the rage in hifi - anything that didn't make your ears bleed was considered "veiled". The moniker stuck.

This actually went so deep that some goofs think "the Sennheiser veil" is a company sound, and that unrelated models have a "veil".

 

[madwolfa]

At the time it was released, ear stabby headphones were all the rage in hifi - anything that didn't make your ears bleed was considered "veiled". The moniker stuck.

 
Can confirm, I remember the Grado/Beyer crowd hating on Sennheiser sound back in the day...
 

 

[kman1211]

  Well, then soundstage is some kind of mystery to me. I was convinced by his explanation, but I am not sure I buy it at this point, given the examples showed here about other headphones.
 
Hopefully somebody can explain what it's all about.
 
The only example the engineer gave was the DT 880/990 sound stage. He said the 880 has a narrower sound stage because less sound is able to escape the semi-open design, whereas the DT 990's soundstage is much wider, due to the fully open design. In every other respect those are the same headphone, according to him.
 
This sounded very convincing to me. I wish I could bring the example of HD600 vs HD650 soundstage right then! This is so confusing now...

There are many factors that can impact soundstage(driver fidelity is one of them), the HD 650 has somewhat greater fidelity than the HD 600 which is likely the cause.
 
The DT 880 and DT 990 have the same driver but different dampening. The HD 600 vs HD 650 is a case of two different drivers as well as somewhat different dampening which makes a comparison different than the DT 880/990 comparison. 

 

[yangian]

At the time it was released, ear stabby headphones were all the rage in hifi - anything that didn't make your ears bleed was considered "veiled". The moniker stuck.

This actually went so deep that some goofs think "the Sennheiser veil" is a company sound, and that unrelated models have a "veil".

lol... this is ridicuous but seems to be true

 

 

[_gl]

The great, but also frustrating thing about this hobby is you're not just reviewing headphones, you're also (by proxy) reviewing your equipment.  My HD600 sounds almost like (for the better) a different headphone from the day I got it to after I made all the tweaks (ERS paper, jitterbugs, upgrading to Bifrost), that's a bit of an exaggeration, but you get my drift.  So by natural extension you will be talking about your chain right along with the cans if you start tweaking things... this isn't even getting into DSPs, EQ'ing, mods, etc...  

 
I agree, when I first got my HD600's (recently), I was driving them from the headphone out of my audio interface, and it turns out that didn't have enough oomph.  It made them sound far too laid-back (which I'm not into), with no real impact and not enough detail.  My Pono player (also recent : ) sounded pretty similar single-ended into them, and same with my Koss KSC-75's.  Both drastically improved when I balanced them.
 
Having hung out here a bit, I now get how subjective almost every post here is, because we're mostly listening to different gear, and that's before we worry about manufacturing differences so even the same cans (or amps) don't necessarily sound exactly the same.  Fun though if you navigate your way through it with an open mind : ).

 

[ColtMrFire]

Really curious about the Bottlehead Crack amp (+speedball upgrade), since it's supposed to be one of the best pairings for the HD600.  I love my Denon receiver, but still curious about an amp that is supposed to be a match made in heaven for my cans... 
 
I'm a little hesitant to build one myself though since I don't solder, and am not all that interested in it as a hobby, so even buying the equipment would be a waste of money.

 

[RickB]

  Really curious about the Bottlehead Crack amp (+speedball upgrade), since it's supposed to be one of the best pairings for the HD600.  I love my Denon receiver, but still curious about an amp that is supposed to be a match made in heaven for my cans... 
 
I'm a little hesitant to build one myself though since I don't solder, and am not all that interested in it as a hobby, so even buying the equipment would be a waste of money.

 
If you keep an eye on the for sale forums, they pop up every once in a while.

 

[DeadHead57]

Really curious about the Bottlehead Crack amp (+speedball upgrade), since it's supposed to be one of the best pairings for the HD600.  I love my Denon receiver, but still curious about an amp that is supposed to be a match made in heaven for my cans... 

I'm a little hesitant to build one myself though since I don't solder, and am not all that interested in it as a hobby, so even buying the equipment would be a waste of money.

Consider the Schiit Valhalla 2 as an alternative. I am running this along with the Bifrost 4490 with my HD600 and find it a great match.

 

[Billheiser]

  Well, then soundstage is some kind of mystery to me. I was convinced by his explanation, but I am not sure I buy it at this point, given the examples showed here about other headphones.
 
Hopefully somebody can explain what it's all about.
 
The only example the engineer gave was the DT 880/990 sound stage. He said the 880 has a narrower sound stage because less sound is able to escape the semi-open design, whereas the DT 990's soundstage is much wider, due to the fully open design. In every other respect those are the same headphone, according to him.
 
This sounded very convincing to me. I wish I could bring the example of HD600 vs HD650 soundstage right then! This is so confusing now...

His example is good - "open" headphones typically have more/better soundstage.  But there are exceptions or variations to the rule (as in everything).  I'd suggest listening to a few headphones and seeing what you think.  No need to get hung up on terms like sound staging and imaging. Just listen, and you'll find 'phones that differ in how they give a sense of space or depth.

 

[BobG55]

  Really curious about the Bottlehead Crack amp (+speedball upgrade), since it's supposed to be one of the best pairings for the HD600.  I love my Denon receiver, but still curious about an amp that is supposed to be a match made in heaven for my cans... 
 
I'm a little hesitant to build one myself though since I don't solder, and am not all that interested in it as a hobby, so even buying the equipment would be a waste of money.

Another thing you could do is create an "Wanted" ad on the Amplification for sale / trade thread.  Last year I created one myself and within a couple of days I got the amp I was looking for.  You never know.  Good luck, hope you can find one.