[SP Wild]

Interesting thoughts, i look at it another way. I see it that the recording captures the 'natural music transient event' so I want that to be reproduced as cleanly as possible. I can see the draw to tube amps though, it took me a long time to get used to the Hd800s extremely clean , clear sound. Back on topic though my hD600s are in transit and are due to arrive tomorrow. Looking forward to hearing this legendary headphone

 
Studio recordings generally have the mic much closer to an instrument and when played back through revealing headphones sounds like your ears are where the microphone was placed.  Played through speakers and the sound will travel via 'cushioning' air before hitting your ears.  So there is merit to naturalising transient events for headphone use.
 
With the HD650/600s having a less articulate driver than planars and top level dynamics...I believe the grain comes from top end energy as a result of the driver trying...but not entirely succeeding, to track the electronic signal in the top end.  Using a tube amp can synergise better with these cans as I believe they produce a cushioned top end transient event that the drivers can articulate more accurately.  The result to my ears is a vast reduction in grain and a more realistic sound treble e.g. cymbals sound more realistic via a tubed HD650/600 than a solid state driven one.
 
On another note different tube amps...different tubes resonate (or track recorded ambience?) more prominently in different frequencies.  This can be used to tune the sound not unlike speakers resonating in a room.  The whole idea that tube amps are always warm is a load of rubbish.
 
I think this is a good read regarding tube amps, and it was written by pro audio guys.

 

[hodgjy]

   
 The whole idea that tube amps are always warm is a load of rubbish.
 
I think this is a good read regarding tube amps, and it was written by pro audio guys.

 
Indeed.  I've heard some ice cold tube amps.  It's all about the circuit design, global feedback, and the actual tubes used.  The first version of the Schiit Valhalla actually leaned to the bright side, for example.  My Trafomatic is completely neutral and my Woo WA3 is warm.

 

[krismusic]

With the HD650/600s having a less articulate driver than planars and top level dynamics...I believe the grain comes from top end energy as a result of the driver trying...but not entirely succeeding, to track the electronic signal in the top end.  Using a tube amp can synergise better with these cans as I believe they produce a cushioned top end transient event that the drivers can articulate more accurately.  The result to my ears is a vast reduction in grain and a more realistic sound treble e.g. cymbals sound more realistic via a tubed HD650/600 than a solid state driven one.

Now that does make sense to me.
I think this is a good read regarding tube amps, and it was written by pro audio guys.

 

[Hijodelbrx]

As an longtime HD600 owner (10+ yrs) that's been reading about them from the beginning, you know what else is truly legendary? The HD600's extraordinary comparability with tube amps! Really, it's true. THE combo most often raved about was with the old Musical Fidelity tube amps. To those of you that are flat out dismissing tube technology I'd guess you haven't heard a good tube amp. Don't knock it 'til you've tried it! Remember, if the primary concern is that tubes 'alter' sound, the exact same thing can be said about dacs, equalizers, and even headphones!

 

[Suguru103]

Alright, before this turns into a tube vs SS for the next few posts...

Can somebody answer the question i posted before this started? Any opinions of the Project Sunrise amp or is the Little Dot MKIII the way to go?

 

[kramer5150]

   
Indeed.  I've heard some ice cold tube amps.  It's all about the circuit design, global feedback, and the actual tubes used.  The first version of the Schiit Valhalla actually leaned to the bright side, for example.  My Trafomatic is completely neutral and my Woo WA3 is warm.
 

 
IMHO the impedance (and resistance) loading presented by the headphone also has a dramatic effect on how the circuit sounds.  OTL amps in particular can drastically change their sonic signature with different impedance loads.  I am not sure exactly what parameters change the most... distortion, damping, stereo separation, freq response, slew rate... etc.  I think its a combination of all.  Different circuits, and different tubes respond differently.
 
Your comments there in bold also closely mirror the sonic differences i hear between my darkvoice 337 which I have running through output transformers, and my Earmax which I generally use OTL with a 120 ohm resistive adapter.  Although I wouldn't call the 337 a completely neutral sounding circuit, its got a hint of bass boost and deeper extension with all my cans.  I don't run the Earmax through output transformers... its just too sterile, cold, analytical... whatever you want to call it

.  The Earmax is a very tube saturated sounding circuit with the tubes I am using... output transformers completely ruin that "fun factor".
 
Anyways... back to the HD600.  So I have some 650 drivers incoming (hope thats not too offensive in an HD600 love thread), it will be interesting to see how they respond in my setup.

 

[SP Wild]

I don't think discussing tube amps is out of context, especially for the HD650/600 pair.  I have always pointed people over at the HD650 thread immediately to a tubed amp.  When you look at the design of this pair and understand that it was a trickle down design from the mighty Orpheus...which was a tube amp system, and one starts to realise that there is a method to the apparent madness.  With my LCD2s it's different, I generally point people over to solid state.  I don't bag solid state, never have, and even a solid state amp will give control to the bass of the HD pair that a tube will not.

 

[hodgjy]

   
IMHO the impedance (and resistance) loading presented by the headphone also has a dramatic effect on how the circuit sounds.  OTL amps in particular can drastically change their sonic signature with different impedance loads.  I am not sure exactly what parameters change the most... distortion, damping, stereo separation, freq response, slew rate... etc.  I think its a combination of all.  Different circuits, and different tubes respond differently.
 
Your comments there in bold also closely mirror the sonic differences i hear between my darkvoice 337 which I have running through output transformers, and my Earmax which I generally use OTL with a 120 ohm resistive adapter.  Although I wouldn't call the 337 a completely neutral sounding circuit, its got a hint of bass boost and deeper extension with all my cans.  I don't run the Earmax through output transformers... its just too sterile, cold, analytical... whatever you want to call it

.  The Earmax is a very tube saturated sounding circuit with the tubes I am using... output transformers completely ruin that "fun factor".
 
Anyways... back to the HD600.  So I have some 650 drivers incoming (hope thats not too offensive in an HD600 love thread), it will be interesting to see how they respond in my setup.

 
As usual, you're right on the money.  My Trafomatic has 3 taps on the output transformer secondary windings, and when I play around with those with different cans, I do get slightly different sound with the cans.  The Woo is OTL, so that's stuck based on each set of cans.  I do like the HD600s best on the "high" settings the best on the Trafomatic.

 

[parbaked]

Alright, before this turns into a tube vs SS for the next few posts...

Can somebody answer the question i posted before this started? Any opinions of the Project Sunrise amp or is the Little Dot MKIII the way to go?

Used Crack is good but if you want to buy new I'd consider the Horizon over the Sunrise or LD MKIII.

 

[perhapss]

  I don't think discussing tube amps is out of context, especially for the HD650/600 pair.  I have always pointed people over at the HD650 thread immediately to a tubed amp.  When you look at the design of this pair and understand that it was a trickle down design from the mighty Orpheus...which was a tube amp system, and one starts to realise that there is a method to the apparent madness.  With my LCD2s it's different, I generally point people over to solid state.  I don't bag solid state, never have, and even a solid state amp will give control to the bass of the HD pair that a tube will not.

 
The Orpheus only looks similar to the HD600/650 series.
The technology is completely different as you probably know.

 

[Suguru103]

  Used Crack is good but if you want to buy new I'd consider the Horizon over the Sunrise or LD MKIII.

Yeah, i've heard the Horizon is perfect high impedance. But my budget really can't stretch past $270.
 
I've pm'd the maker of the amps, and he said that even though the Horizon would be better for a HD600, it's not like the Sunrise can't drive it perfectly well. I just wanted a final opinion between it and the LD, but seeing as the Project Sunrise is based in US and i enjoy the versatility it offers, i'll get it.
 
Thanks for the help.
 
P.S: Used Cracks are usually upwards of $300, can't do it. Oh and they sell out pretty quick!

 

[parbaked]

Originally Posted by Suguru103 /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 
But my budget really can't stretch past $270.
 

Then get the Little Dot 1+ and you'll be just fine....

 

[Suguru103]

  Then get the Little Dot 1+ and you'll be just fine....

The Project Sunrise would cost me $265, the Little Dot MKIII would cost me $240. They fall into my budget, and are both better than the LD 1+. I just want something that will get me out of the "meh" of my current E09K. 
 
But thanks!

 

[imackler]

  I just want something that will get me out of the "meh" of my current E09K. 

Even the affordable Valhalla will do that! 

 

[Suguru103]

  Even the affordable Valhalla will do that! 

I actually did lots of reading on the Valhalla, and found that it was on the bright side(a no for me) and that it wasn't that much of a jump from something like a Magni, which is in the same class as a E09K.
 
If i was into treble energy i would probably be after it though... the aesthetics and build quality alone are superb.