[iamvincent]

 
Vincent: http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/544070/sennheiser-650s-computer-headphone-jack-what-am-i-missing
just take a look at the title, don' t even have to read it

Andrew: HD 650
computer headphone jack
What are you doing
 
-----------------------------------------
 
yeah, that is kind of what happened when we examine it closely
 
I wanna state out a few things
 
1. Difference between MP3 and lossless audio file and audio beyond 16bit/44.8 is very ovbious
said the man who owsn all these rigs , has hearing lost, went to Head-Fi meetings, and type bad English
 
if you like MP3, or you are like me who take sound as science, then keep MP3 and improve other things
 

 
2. If part of an audio chain is mess up, everything else is mess up.
and I will say you mess up a lot of parts
 
From 2 points above, I will suggest a few things
 
1. Buy CDs, good and cheap way to start
2. Buy a intergrate Amplifier with DAC intergrated, or DAC that has intergrate amp
 
if you have the $$$, I will recommend both
 
Audinst MX1 , which cost only $180 and less than a week of shipping is really good deal
even if you don't like it, second hand for this thing is hot
 

 

[pp312]

Quote:

Listening to a quality headphone is part of an entire system. You can't just address one part of the system and expect to get the best performance. Getting a better amp won't fix the deficiencies of poor low bit rate music. So if someone is listening to low quality mp3, pointing that out helps improve the entire system. Just because someone only asks one question doesn't mean other areas shouldn't be addressed. Listening to low bit mp3 music files chokes a mod to high tier setup. Just as not using a DAC or not properly amping does. Again, there is little reason that anyone should be required to have mp3 files on a computer. Upgrading to a lossless format will only improve the overall sound quality. Not decrease it. How is this a difficult concept to grasp?

I think you're missing the point. The guy already has the files, presumably won't be discarding them and probably can't "upgrade". I know I couldn't, since most of my MP3 files simply aren't available in lossless and never will be. And even if they were, I object to paying twice for the same thing. 
 
But what this really comes down to is the blanket condemnation of MP3. I've seen comments on forums like, "MP3 is an appalling format", and it's rubbish. As someone has already pointed out, it's been shown time and again that the majority of people (including many Golden Ears) cannot pick between 320 or even 256 and FLAC, so if you're going to condemn MP3 you certainly need to differentiate between bitrates. MP3 is a perfectly adequate format for most people and will remain so for many years; the effort should be not to eradicate it but to make certain as many files as possible are at a high bitrate. I have a number of files at 128 (not from choice, but there they are) and I have no doubt they would not sound anywhere near as good on a lesser phone than my 650. IOW, even if all my music were low bitrate MP3, I would still think a 650 a very good investment.  
 

 

[baka1969]

Quote:Originally Posted by pp312 





"I think you're missing the point <snip>....<snip> I would still think a 650 a very good investment."


I'm not missing the point. Based on what you've said then the proliferation of hi-rez downloads is a waste of time and irrelevant? I supposed SACD isn't sonically better? Should mastering be done in mp3 320kps? No it shouldn't. To insinuate that the majority of music is available in mp3 format and not available in a lossless format is ludicrous.

Maybe poor sounding bootlegged live recordings might be available in various mp3 formats but very few studio recordings or officially released live recordings are only available in mp3. Hell, Grateful Dead bootlegs and Floyd ROIOs have been around long before the term mp3 ever existed. Even indie groups have their home-studio recorded music in lossless. There are many on Head-Fi and other audiophiles that have tens of thousands of albums. Some have many redundancies in both CD and vinyl. There is a huge amount of lossless material. Much, much more so than is available in ONLY mp3 formats. As I stated earlier in this thread, buying used CDs is cost effective. Ripping them to a computer is easy. Hard drive storage is cheap.

 

[Brent Hutto]

Stop putting idiotic words in other people's mouths. If I choose to listen to a given song with a 256kbps AAC file because it sounds OK to me no, I am not saying that you should not listen to it as a lossless or hi-rez file. I own a $350 headphone. I like it. It sounds great to me. I am not saying that you should not own a $2,000 headphone just because I like my $350 one. I'll even stipulate that a $2,000 most likely sounds better than my $350 headphone. I just don't choose to spend the extra $1,650.

Same with file formats. Sure, having 96khz/24-bit recordings of every single thing I listen to would be great. The fact that I settle for 320, 256 or even god forbid 128kbps MP3/AAC files and am quite happy listening to them does not impugn your choice of a higher bitrate or higher resolution file.

This thread and the entire forum is full of this kind of asymmetrical insults. I almost never see some poor schmuck listening to 128kbps MP3's telling a guy who rips everything lossless that he's stupid, missing the point and wasting time. Yet every day, including in this here thread, you see someone being told how foolish they are to spend hundreds of dollars on headphones when some or all of their music isn't in a "audiophile" format.

All of which is par for the course. Some of that "advice" is even well intentioned. But what I can't stand is when you guys turn around and claim that anyone who choose not to listen to your own "acceptable" file formats is insulting you or saying higher quality files should not exist. Nobody is claiming that.

 

[Proglover]

Brent, why the heck do you find it necessary to get so emotional involved in this discussion (at least, it seems to be so). In your arguments I read a lot about 'respect one's choice to listen to whatever bitrate he/she likes, with whatever headphones he/she likes'. True, but then, also respect that others could have other opinions, just like you can have other opinions on the matter.
 
And seriously, if you really feel this threat and even this complete forum is full of insults then why do you spend so much time on it? I don't mean this in a bad way, but I just don't understand that when you're so involved in a discussion like this and you really mean a forum is full of insults, why you come back to it.
 
I really advice you, and others who get emotional involved in these kind of discussions, to simply let topics like this alone. There will always be people who post things you don't like, there's really not anything you can do about that.
And really, new posters who get adviced to spend more money then you think is appropriate, do not have to be protected. They choose to go to an audiophile forum. So it's expected you also get opinions from purists. Plus, let them make their own choice, simply give your opinion, just like others.
 
As to this discussion, couldn't we just agree that:
 
- MP3 is better available when you download music
- to buy cd's (and rip) is easy and cheap, for those who love
- not everybody finds it necessary to have lossless music, but yes, it is better (the name 'lossless' as opposed to 'loss' doesn't come from nowhere)
- MP3 was invented because harddisc space was very limited at the time, because of that function it exists
- harddisc space is not very limited anymore so in theory it is true that lossy formats aren't necessary anymore
- but the fact that when downloading music, MP3 is the dominant format, makes those people dependent on the format
- different ears hear differently: some find noticable difference between 192/256/320/FLAC/SACD/24bit etc., some find these differences to be very small, and some simply don't hear the difference.
 
 

 

[Brent Hutto]

As to this discussion, couldn't we just agree that:
 
- MP3 is better available when you download music
- to buy cd's (and rip) is easy and cheap, for those who love
- not everybody finds it necessary to have lossless music, but yes, it is better (the name 'lossless' as opposed to 'loss' doesn't come from nowhere)
- MP3 was invented because harddisc space was very limited at the time, because of that function it exists
- harddisc space is not very limited anymore so in theory it is true that lossy formats aren't necessary anymore
- but the fact that when downloading music, MP3 is the dominant format, makes those people dependent on the format
- different ears hear differently: some find noticable difference between 192/256/320/FLAC/SACD/24bit etc., some find these differences to be very small, and some simply don't hear the difference.
 
 

I agree with each of your points. And I have no argument with your way of stating those points.

My only wish is that everyone chose to offer their advice to newcomers in such a clear and neutral fashion rather than overstating the case as is so commonly done, including earlier in this thread.

 

[Digital-Pride]

 

[Chigorin]

geez, this thread has been all over the place................   

  
 
quite entertaining really.

 
 
haha, anyway, Abe21599, in answer to your question: "is there gonna be a comparable difference with an amp if my source has variable quality music?"  
 
With the HD650s the answer is a very resounding YES!  those are high impedance headphones and demand power!  sending them out of the mini jack on your computer will produce less than stellar performance especially in the bass simply because your computer doesn't have the power to drive those suckers.  To give an over exaggerated but effective analogy:  it's like trying to drive a massive MONSTER truck with gigantic tires with the engine of a Toyota Prius, what kind of gasoline (bitrate) you use at that point is kind of irrelevant because the engine wouldn't be able to move the monster truck anyway.  
                                                       (^Amp^)                                          (^HD-650^)
 
 
So, now that you have your new amp, you have just upgraded your engine significantly, and should see/hear a difference in SQ.  Now you can focus on what kind of gasoline (bitrate) you're going to use for your new beast, of course higher quality gas will produce better results, how noticeable and if it is worth it is up to you.
 
you also asked:  "what am I missing?"  I would like to let you know that for the enthusiasts/audiophiles that own the HD-650s, many of them buy aftermarket cables to improve the sound quality even further.  In the Monster Truck analogy above, this is like buying better tires (better is a subjective term, better tires for monster trucks could mean bigger, stronger, better traction).  Cables usually improve fine detail and bass, with silver cables even more details can be heard and the treble and midrange usually change for the better.
 
here is a review of 3 different cables by moon audio tried on 3 different headphones by Sennheiser and I found it very interesting (the HD600s, HD650s, and HD800s): 
 
http://6moons.com/audioreviews/moonaudio2/dragons.html
 
cables are optional and are only if you want to get the last 5-10% of SQ from your headphones.  If the improvement is worth it for you then great, if you are happy with what you are getting from your setup right now without cables then I am envious of you.  I bought cables for my AKG k702s because I have a problem, haha.  (they do make a difference though.)  Mine cost $275.  
 
How are your HD-650s treating you?  you must have had some listening time with them and the new amp right?  we are curious about your impressions, I am at least.

 

[pp312]

 
Quote:

Quote:Originally Posted by pp312 





"I think you're missing the point <snip>....<snip> I would still think a 650 a very good investment."


I'm not missing the point. Based on what you've said then the proliferation of hi-rez downloads is a waste of time and irrelevant? I supposed SACD isn't sonically better? Should mastering be done in mp3 320kps? No it shouldn't. To insinuate that the majority of music is available in mp3 format and not available in a lossless format is ludicrous.

Maybe poor sounding bootlegged live recordings might be available in various mp3 formats but very few studio recordings or officially released live recordings are only available in mp3. Hell, Grateful Dead bootlegs and Floyd ROIOs have been around long before the term mp3 ever existed. Even indie groups have their home-studio recorded music in lossless. There are many on Head-Fi and other audiophiles that have tens of thousands of albums. Some have many redundancies in both CD and vinyl. There is a huge amount of lossless material. Much, much more so than is available in ONLY mp3 formats. As I stated earlier in this thread, buying used CDs is cost effective. Ripping them to a computer is easy. Hard drive storage is cheap.

Honestly. I have no idea what you're rambling about. I'm telling you, and I tell no lie, that there is a truckload of music that is NOT available in other than MP3, and is not available either on CD. Don't write a post that suggests I'm some kind of liar, that I'm avoiding a truth that is self evident to you, because I take it not kindly, Sir. And I never said "the proliferation of hi-rez downloads is a waste of time and irrelevant", so please don't put words in my post that weren't there. Nor do I recall mentioning SACD, though as it happens I have not yet been able to detect the supposed sonic superiority of that format. Nor did I even hint of an opinion that all mastering should be done in MP3. And just to wind up this litany of things I supposedly said that I didn't in fact say, I never insinuated "that the majority of music is available in mp3 format and not available in a lossless format". What I did say was that many MP3 music files cannot be "upgraded" to lossless because there is no lossless version of those files.
 
And as for "Grateful Dead bootlegs and Floyd ROIOs", to say nothing of "indie groups", I have only the vaguest notion of what those things are. So you see, there's a whole musical world outside the one you're into, and what may be true and relevant to you is not always so to others.    

 

[Chigorin]

Whoops!  I posted the wrong link!  The one I posted is still talking about various cables for the HD650s, but here is the one I meant to post:
 
http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue52/moon_audio.htm
 
Enjoy!

 

[baka1969]

Music files are a component like the source, DAC, amp and even headphone choice. With few exceptions, the vast majority of music available is had in some lossless format. Also, 44.1 CD is not an "audiophile" format. It's pretty much the industry standard. Even if there is a "truck load" of music that is ONLY available in mp3, the preponderance of music is available lossless.

All arguments aside I'd be interested in some examples of music that can only be downloaded in mp3. I might even find something I like. Who knows? I listen to a diverse group of genres.

Treating the music format as a component is an important factor in getting the best out of a headphone rig. For the lion's share of music that is available, having a lossless format is easy to get and doesn't have to be a costly upgrade to mp3 coded files.

I have also mentioned in this thread that mid to high tier headphones greatly benefit from an [external] DAC and quality amp. Certainly the HD650 is one of those cans.

 

[tme110]

I also think it would be beneficial to get an amp for these phones. No need for a crazy amp but an amp non the less.  I just got my hd650s a couple of weeks ago and I love it.  I sometimes use it with my e7 amp which is a good 90% solution.  It has taken me about 2 weeks to realize that the e7 can not completely power them but that only comes out with certain types of music and at certain levels.  I'm a rock person myself but I was surprised at how the e7/650 combo couldn't even come close to working with some organ music that I have.  I also sometimes have the e7 completely maxed out volume wise so I'm surprised a computer headphone out would work that well.  But I somehow wound up with several amps now so it's not a problem.
 
I will also say that my music preference has expanded greatly since getting new phones, then needed better source music, then getting a new amp.  I bought some of those 24/176 HD track CD's even though I didn't remotely really enjoy the music in 'free demo from the web site' mode but it simply sounds soooooo good that I now enjoy the music.  Or maybe I'm just so happy to have something that sounds so great...
 
I also have to say that I think you'd really enjoy a basic external DAC.  It just made a huge difference for me.  And I think it would be good to amp those HD650's - they are great HP's and you should be able to hear their full potential.

 

[pp312]

 
Quote:

With few exceptions, the vast majority of music available is had in some lossless format.

 
The vast majority of the music you like and want. Did you not read my last sentence? Without citing specific examples, classical, jazz and soundtrack music was being issued before "indie' or whatever was ever thought of, and much of that music, some of it going back to the 50s, is only available, if at all, in MP3. I would hate to accuse you of being insular, but you're coming across that way. Or maybe I could just quote Shakespeare: "There are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in your philosophy, Horatio."  

 

[Abe21599]

lol glad this went soooo off topic but thanks to those who had some input about what i originally posted. got the e9 and it did make a difference; almost like the music sounded "fuller" if that makes sense.

 

[MacedonianHero]

Quote:

I think you're missing the point. The guy already has the files, presumably won't be discarding them and probably can't "upgrade". I know I couldn't, since most of my MP3 files simply aren't available in lossless and never will be. And even if they were, I object to paying twice for the same thing. 
 

 
Since I joined Head-fi and gone up the upgrade path, I have gone back and re-bought so many of my mp3s in CDs....a revealing system will give you exactly what you give them.

 
Now if my wife would only see the logic and not complain about all the CDs lying around.