Seiun player, $150 player with monster spec. Too good to be true?

[glassmonkey]

Iam deciding on a Signal cleaner...
IFI2 UPTONE REGEN Schitt wyrd or Jitter bug. Plug that into my second hand OPPO HA1.
SCHITTs expensive.. Welcome to headfi. ..
I never listened to that when I joined.

But with this DAP AMP and Doc it's my cheap end game. After xmas it's either the ETHER OR HE X.
Another site recommends HE560 but I burned that bridge with the OPPO I think..
Enough rambling, I hope that answers the question.. I think

Keep smiling brother..8^)

If you are deciding on a signal cleaner, don't forget the iFi iPurifier2 (US price $129, UK not sure), I've heard very good things. I personally own the iFi iUSB3.0 and it is very effective, the difference is not subtle, especially if you plug your music hard-drive into it. I've heard nothing but good things about the Uptone Regen, but you'll have to wait a while to enjoy one. They sell out quickly and you have to wait for the next batch. iFi makes great stuff, I highly recommend them. I'd skip on the Wyrd, as it won't be better than the Uptone Regen, and it's status over the iPurifier2 is also a question.
 
Lets hope they put an actual Op Amp in the Seiun Pro and Pro X, 49mW is a joke. The device may end up being a transport for many, or require pairing with a FiiO or Cayin amp.

 

[Hifihedgehog]

  Hey HiFihedgehog,

It's just a player. Depending on your setup for DAC/Headphone Amps we either recommend our Feather DAC or the Seiun PHA.
 
Cheers!
 
 
(http://www.amazon.com/Feather-Notebook-DAC-White--Hi-Res/dp/B014QOITI0/ref=sr_1_1?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1447922083&sr=1-1&keywords=feather+dac) 

PM'ed you! 

 

[Middy]

This player can't be an everyman for all people, 49mW runs most headphones. Thier Headphone Amp seems hardcore 1v 500mv+500mv dual 70 hrs battery. LCD display. You couldn't include that in a DAP unless Battery tech leaps a few years. A mobile with X3 thickness battery...
Still hard to beat an SSD ready dock android phone functions on a high spec Dac and a high powered amp.
I want thier 3 way eco system. If i went the other manufacturers route I'd be spending nearly $1000+ easy. $600 an A&K Jr....
If this never arrived on IDGG I'd still just have my FIIO X3 II and E18.
Now I will have a desktop setup transport and 4k streaming with cloud wifi and BT.
Xmas came early and I am robbing santa. ....
I can live with the player and the extra for the Amp.. Still $100+ cheaper than AK
Just the question is it a good upgrade?
Would you recommend to a friend starting this hobby...

 

[Middy]

New FAQ from IDGG Enjoy....
Dave 8^)
How many pairs of the Impact Dura can I buy? Is there a limit?
Previously there was a limit however we decided, to discard it. You can buy as many Impact Dura as your heart desires!

Where do I post my screenshot to redeem my free pair of Forte Impact Dura?After the completion of the campaign, we'll send out our 'Post Campaign Survey'. This is basically a questionnaire we'll send out to verify your shipping address, figure out which color options you want and more.
On the survey, we will have a question where you'll be able to upload your screenshot in-exchange for 1-free pair of Forte Impact Dura Earbuds!

So what is the Seiun PHA?
The PHA is a Headphone Amp / Powerbank for power users. It features the ESS SABRE9018S DAC along with the TI OPA4134 and TPA6120A2 OP and Headphone Amps respectively. It also has a 10,000mAh battery to recharge all your favorite devices and drive unprecedented power to the balanced outputs.

Wait...does the PHA have a Hi-Res Audio Player?
Yes, however it is a secondary function of the PHA. The PHA features a small 128x32px LCD. The device really isn't meant to be a dedicated DAP, however it can fill in during a pinch. Unlike the Pro / PRO X with its dedicated Audio app, the PHA only has a primitive folder play function. So we don't recommend it as a replacement for your dedicated DAP.

Is it the PHA or the HPA?
It's the Seiun PHA (Portable Headphone Amp).

Why doesn't the Seiun Pro / PRO X have a dedicated amp?
It all comes down to power consumption. Basically if we integrated something like the TI OPA4134 + TPA6120A2 in our Seiun Pro / PRO X, users would have extremely short battery life. As short as 2-3 hours in our RD test.
That's why we decided to go with the new ESS 9018Q2C DAC + Amp solution, because of its smart power management solutions.

But...still why not just include a bigger battery and get us the Amp we want?
For two reasons. First a bigger battery means bigger player. At 5.5" this the Seiun Pro / PRO X are already beast. Second, a bigger battery would also require an extensive retooling process which would put us behind schedule. No one wants us to become the next Geekwave! (Most of all us! We got an ecosystem to keep developing!)

But that's not a stretch goal! Stretch goals are suppose to give us stuff for free!
Yes, we understand your frustration, we never meant to make anyone feel like we pulled 'a fast one' on them.
When we introduced the PHA we also announced that we would still be making color choices, we upgraded the Seiun Players storage capacity, and we offered an internal-storage Add-on for the Seiun Pro / PRO X.
We simply advertised the PHA as a 'Stretch Goal' because we wanted it to be displayed prominently at the top of the page.
In hindsight we should have named this as an accessory unlock or perk unlock or something else. We are sorry for the confusion it caused our contributors.

Will the Pro / PRO X support a Standalone DAC Mode?
No the Seiun Pro & PRO X will not have a Standalone DAC Mode. Instead you can use our Zeus Player App you'll be able to access global clouds (Dropbox / Google Drive / Loop / Box), Local LAN connections and our own upcoming HomeServer technology to sync or stream music from your computers and phones.
For DAC functionality we recommend you checkout our existing Feather DAC (now on Amazon and our Website) or our Seiun PHA Headphone Amp.

So if I want to upgrade my Pro / PRO X to 128GB internal storage and I bought the Lovebirds (x2) package what do I do?
IndieGoGo doesn't allow adding multiple perks at a time, so you will have to order the Storage Add-on Perk for each device.
(If you ordered the Love Birds that mean you have to order it twice, if you ordered three units, you have to order the perk three times).

Will the microSD slot support more than 128GB?
Right now the highest capacity card we have tested the prototypes with is 128GB . When we get our hands on a higher capacity microSD card, we'll test it and verify.

Will you support line out or any optical audio connections?
The Seiun Player will support neither Line-OUT nor SPDIF-OUT.
The Seiun Pro / PRO X will support Line-OUT (via 3.5mm) and SPDIF-OUT (via the USB-Type-C port).
The Seiun PHA (Headphone Amp) will support Line IN/OUT and SPDIF IN/OUT.

Will the Pro / PRO X support Bluetooth AptX?
Not at this moment, however we will support the A2DP media profile.

What version of Android will the Seiun Pro / Pro X ship with?
The Seiun Pro & Pro X will ship with Android 5.1 Lollipop. After launch we will release an update for to Android 6.0 Marshmallow once we have confirmed our apps & modified firmware perform without any issues.

Can you add an extra MicroSD Slot?
No, that would require a redesign of the external housing along with the PCB Board so we cannot integrate this without compromising our delivery date.

Will I be able to swap batteries?
No, the battery will fixed into the Seiun Player / Pro & Pro X. However we will announce a battery replacement program soon around the time we ship the products out!

Will you still make the sleeves / cases / docks if you don't meet the stretch goal?
Yes! We are developing screen protectors and a bumper case (for the Pro / PRO X). For the Seiun Player we are developing a leather sleeve and sports armband. We'll post more details once we confirm the manufacturing details.

 

[glassmonkey]

This player can't be an everyman for all people, 49mW runs most headphones. Thier Headphone Amp seems hardcore 1v 500mv+500mv dual 70 hrs battery. LCD display. You couldn't include that in a DAP unless Battery tech leaps a few years. A mobile with X3 thickness battery...
Still hard to beat an SSD ready dock android phone functions on a high spec Dac and a high powered amp.
I want thier 3 way eco system. If i went the other manufacturers route I'd be spending nearly $1000+ easy. $600 an A&K Jr....
If this never arrived on IDGG I'd still just have my FIIO X3 II and E18.
Now I will have a desktop setup transport and 4k streaming with cloud wifi and BT.
Xmas came early and I am robbing santa. ....
I can live with the player and the extra for the Amp.. Still $100+ cheaper than AK
Just the question is it a good upgrade?
Would you recommend to a friend starting this hobby...

Whether it is a good upgrade is a major question, as we don't know what the DSP is doing to the audio. We also don't know whether the circuitry will keep the sound clean. We'll find out later. I'm tempted to throw some money at their tiny and currently available Feather DAC to see how it sounds. It may mitigate some of the risk of the investment.
 
While I agree that the ecosystem is very affordable, I strongly disagree with them not having the ability to put an opamp in and still have some battery power on the Pro X, but they decided to put a 1080p 5.5" screen on the Pro X, which is not battery optimal. Lack of hardware play/pause/skip also makes that screen have to come on more and eat more battery.
 
49mW runs most iems well and will do low impedance headphones. I want to drive my HD600 (which isn't hard to drive for a 300 ohm headphone). My REO IEMs also prefer a little more power for good sound. Their implementation of the amplification--using the DAC chip--may cause some degradation of sound as the chip is trying to do too much at once. A separate opamp avoids this.
 
They aren't going to put an opamp in the Pro or Pro X because of the delays that it would cause, not because it isn't feasible. If they had asked the community here before starting this campaign, we would have set them straight. In a year, they'll release the product the Seiun Pro and Pro X should have been, much like LH Labs did with the Geek Out V2.
 
I admire their commitment to timely delivery, but a little more commitment to public involvement would have avoided the issue in the first place.

 

[glassmonkey]

Also, the elephant in the room still hasn't been answered. What is the output impedance on the headphone out? This is a simple question, and it is really necessary that it be answered.

 

[Faelix]

Damn, still the stock 49mw @ 32ohm output power rating. Was hoping for something doubled that at least.

So now the HPA, is it a standalone like the Oppo HA2, but with a small LCD like the E18? It won't be able to store files like the Pro X?

I wouldn't actually mind paying more for the ProX if it had the 500mw capability of the HPA and a 128GB internal storage as stock. Itll render the need for an external amp useless.

 

   
Lets hope they put an actual Op Amp in the Seiun Pro and Pro X, 49mW is a joke. The device may end up being a transport for many, or require pairing with a FiiO or Cayin amp.

 

Originally Posted by glassmonkey /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 
49mW runs most iems well and will do low impedance headphones. I want to drive my HD600 (which isn't hard to drive for a 300 ohm headphone). My REO IEMs also prefer a little more power for good sound. Their implementation of the amplification--using the DAC chip--may cause some degradation of sound as the chip is trying to do too much at once. A separate opamp avoids this.
 

 
 
I'd appreciate some opinions from the knowledgeable people here.
 
As known, the Seiun Pro (X) players are spec'ed as 49mw @ 32ohm.
 
I have but a thin grasp on these technical concepts, and so far my googling has not helped me a lot.
 
As a reference, I have an Audio Technica ATH-M50X and a Philips A5PRO, both seemingly well commented on this forum.
 
What kind of sound should I expect from these phones plugged directly to the Seiun players?
 
I listen mostly to classical music.
 
And I'm not convinced about shelling out another $150 for the amp.
 
I thank in advance for any opinion.

 

[uncola]

I backed their PHA, curious to see how it turns out.  My nexus 4 has low storage space so the 64gb of built in storage will help a lot from a practical standpoint.  

 

[Uberclocked]

   
 
 
 
I'd appreciate some opinions from the knowledgeable people here.
 
As known, the Seiun Pro (X) players are spec'ed as 49mw @ 32ohm.
 
I have but a thin grasp on these technical concepts, and so far my googling has not helped me a lot.
 
As a reference, I have an Audio Technica ATH-M50X and a Philips A5PRO, both seemingly well commented on this forum.
 
What kind of sound should I expect from these phones plugged directly to the Seiun players?
 
I listen mostly to classical music.
 
And I'm not convinced about shelling out another $150 for the amp.
 
I thank in advance for any opinion.

The M50X isn't particularly great for classical, better for edm and more "modern" types of music.
49 mw @ 32 ohms is how much power it can output at 32 ohms.  Anyways, that's more than enough for the M50X, but I HIGHLY suggest getting another pair of headphones for classical.  PM me if you need more help.

 

[glassmonkey]

I'd appreciate some opinions from the knowledgeable people here.

As known, the Seiun Pro (X) players are spec'ed as 49mw @ 32ohm.

I have but a thin grasp on these technical concepts, and so far my googling has not helped me a lot.

As a reference, I have an Audio Technica ATH-M50X and a Philips A5PRO, both seemingly well commented on this forum.

What kind of sound should I expect from these phones plugged directly to the Seiun players?

I listen mostly to classical music.

And I'm not convinced about shelling out another $150 for the amp.

I thank in advance for any opinion.

Nobody knows what the players sound like, that is where the risk is. I've listened to a lot of Sabre based DACs and enjoyed them all. The DAC should be capable of great sound.

If your music is primarily classical, you need headphones with more soundstage than what you currently have. I also recommend you check out Qobuz. They have a purely classical streaming service that is less expensive than Tidal CD quality streaming. At some point you should get a proper headphone amp.

I don't think anyone should be turned off the Pro and Pro X due to the potential amping issue (may not matter for everyone). The price is a steal for the specs, especially if you upgrade to 128gb storage. The price is really unbeatable. I would check out the Echobox also (I'm in on both), as it comes with Tidal and a 300mW headphone amp included.

 

[Kundi]

Nobody knows what the players sound like, that is where the risk is. I've listened to a lot of Sabre based DACs and enjoyed them all. The DAC should be capable of great sound.

If your music is primarily classical, you need headphones with more soundstage than what you currently have. I also recommend you check out Qobuz. They have a purely classical streaming service that is less expensive than Tidal CD quality streaming. At some point you should get a proper headphone amp.

I don't think anyone should be turned off the Pro and Pro X due to the potential amping issue (may not matter for everyone). The price is a steal for the specs, especially if you upgrade to 128gb storage. The price is really unbeatable. I would check out the Echobox also (I'm in on both), as it comes with Tidal and a 300mW headphone amp included.

I'm torn between the seiun and the echobox. But the 128gb seiun sounds so enticing. But then again, i want the finders and tidal, and i'm back to where i started. haha.

 

[Uberclocked]

Nobody knows what the players sound like, that is where the risk is. I've listened to a lot of Sabre based DACs and enjoyed them all. The DAC should be capable of great sound.

Yes, but unless they're made completely incompetently, they should sound similar to other daps.  Read this thread:
http://www.head-fi.org/t/709479
And this post:
http://www.head-fi.org/t/733890/

 

[glassmonkey]

Yes, but unless they're made completely incompetently, they should sound similar to other daps.  Read this thread:
http://www.head-fi.org/t/709479
And this post:
[COLOR=FF4400]http://www.head-fi.org/t/733890/[/COLOR]

I don't think I can trust anything those reviewers say if the can't tell the difference between the DX50 and the AK120II. The DX50 is thick in the lower mids. It hurts some of my vocalists (Father John Misty, Stevie Nicks, Brittney Slays). All the Sabre DACs I own sound better in the lower mids (I own 3). The DX50 has a wider soundstage than the GO 1000 and the GO V2 but not the Pulse X-Infinity. My Note 2 sounds worse than the DX50 and the use the same DAC. Headphones make the most difference, but to say DACs don't make a difference is really dumb. Amping makes a big difference. Source material also plays a signicant role.

 

[Middy]

Still not seeing a down side.

We need to see any pit falls but other than actual listening, £300 for A phone capable tv streaming 128gb (256gb with SDcard) android store DAP.

5.6MHZ 70HR battery 1V Dual out streaming Amp with SSD capability and play, Computer headphone Amp/ Dap Amp.
And hopefully at least or cheaper Docking media centre with SSD.

Not forgetting WiFi bluetooth, custom home cloud/server.

We shouldn't be too over critical, especially with the IDGG cost savings.
When I read back the above..They have done what they said..

I hoped one of us had a beta model, so we can at least put the sound question to sleep.

If you can find me 3 above for the same price.. Give me a PM 8^)

 

[Uberclocked]

I don't think I can trust anything those reviewers say if the can't tell the difference between the DX50 and the AK120II. The DX50 is thick in the lower mids. It hurts some of my vocalists (Father John Misty, Stevie Nicks, Brittney Slays). All the Sabre DACs I own sound better in the lower mids (I own 3). The DX50 has a wider soundstage than the GO 1000 and the GO V2 but not the Pulse X-Infinity. My Note 2 sounds worse than the DX50 and the use the same DAC. Headphones make the most difference, but to say DACs don't make a difference is really dumb. Amping makes a big difference. Source material also plays a signicant role.

The difference between sources is 99% expectation bias and placebo.  Do something for me.  Try doing a blind abx test between two volume matched competent sources. See if you can tell a difference.  I made the guy from the second link do this.  Before, he thought that sources made a very large difference.  Guess what happened after he did the test.  This is also what happened with Mimouille.  He thought that people who said DAPs sound very similar were stupid.  After he did blind abx testing, he changed his mind.
 
Increased volume means increased dynamics and other stuff that makes music sound better, that's why non volume matched sources sound so much difference than they are.  Non-blind tests have the issue of placebo and expectation bias making you hear things that aren't there.  Trust me.
Sources do have differences, but they're very small and usually minimal.
 
Also, are you saying that Brooko is a bad reviewer?