[ToTo Man]

Apologies if this is straying a little too far off-topic, but I am posting this here in the hope of catching the attention of members who own both the Bifrost Uber and Gungnir Multibit.
 
I'm going to put my neck on the line and risk ridicule by revealing that in my main stereo system, using SINGLE-ENDED, Bifrost Uber sounds better than Gungnir Multibit.  
 
I am in a fortunate position to have an old school amplifier that has seamless switching between inputs with no latency or silences, so I can A/B back and forth between two DACs in real-time, making any subtle differences easy to detect.  
 
I will preface by saying that these two DACs are extremely close sound-wise, and that if I didn't have the facility to A/B back and forth in real time, then I would have no hope of differentiating between the two models.  
 
However when A/B-ing, Bifrost Uber sounds livelier and more exciting than Gungnir Muiltibit.  Gungnir Mulibit is slightly smoother and more laid back, but ultimately sounds slightly distant and veiled compared to Bifrost Uber.  
 
Identification of these differences required some concentration, and was made harder due to the fact that Bifrost Uber sounds fractionally louder to my ears than Gungnir Multibit (not by much though, perhaps only 0.5dB max difference), but after accounting for this I remain confident in my findings.
 
I was wondering if anyone else shared this opinion, and had a possible explanation of why Bifrost Uber would sound preferable to Gungnir Multibit?  The only logical explanation I can think of is because I am using the single ended outputs, which are reputed to be worse than balanced (sadly my main system amplifier does not accept balanced inputs so I am unable to put this theory to the test).  Either that or it is just my ears that prefers the sound of Bifrost Uber.  
 
Thoughts?

 

[Darthamza]

The MJ2 and Gumby sound great togeather. I am using my MJ2, with my NOS Telefunken E88CC platinum tubes to drive my HE1K and its so beautiful. The bass is so powerful, yet textured, and refined, without leaking or mudding up the mids. The mids have that tube like lushness and smoothness, yet the mids never loose there resolving textured detail,. The highs are spot on perfect, that never fatigues the listner. And whenever one combines the great bass, midds and high, the large soundstage become fantastically three-dimensional holographic that naturally portrays the music. I highly recommend this system to anyone, especially if you are on a budget. The HE1K seem to like 8 watts of balanced tube goodness.

Hi reddog,
Interestingly, i am planning on having that exact same setup for my upcoming HE1k.. So i wanted to ask you if you are using the multi bit or the delta-sigma on Schiit Gungnir.. Also any recommendation for the xlr cables if you are using all the way balanced? And last question, are you on low gain in the Mj2? I am kinda worried about those 8w of power!
Thanks and happy listening!

 

[reddog]

Hi reddog,
Interestingly, i am planning on having that exact same setup for my upcoming HE1k.. So i wanted to ask you if you are using the multi bit or the delta-sigma on Schiit Gungnir.. Also any recommendation for the xlr cables if you are using all the way balanced? And last question, are you on low gain in the Mj2? I am kinda worried about those 8w of power!
Thanks and happy listening!

I am using the Gungnir Multibit. I got my XLR cables from Amazon, from a generic cable maker. I think it was monocable or mediabridge. I might get a XLR cable from a custom cable maker sometime.

 

[rb2013]

   
7DJ8 Telefunkens add clarity and air but not weight and body (a bit of the opposite of what you're looking for with the HD800's IMO.)  You might want to consider using a couple of Amperex Orange Globes in their place.
 
Modding the HD800s is more or less mandatory because of the 6-6.5k chamber reflection - it's not so much a tonal brightness as part of the inherent character of the headphone that must be modded away. There are a number of resources across the web for doing this, but one you might want to check out is Tyll's "DIY Modification for the Sennheiser HD800" article here over at InnerFidelity. It gives a good explanation of what's going on with the HD800 and gives an solid starter mod for fixing the issue that requires little more than cheap craft store materials. 
 
Mod them, make some tube changes, and then give it a chance. It's entirely possible that it *might* not grow on you at all. But, if it does, you'll have a very solid setup.

 
I would try the Moon Black Dragon V2 cable first before any mods.  My HD800s with this cable - is perfect!  And a serious contender when compared to my friends Stax 09 setup.  A highly refined source helps a lot.
 
The stock HD800 did very well in David Malhers 'Battle of 58 Flagships' Headfi thread - finishing #6 ahead of the LCD3's and HE-6 (the HEK were not available then).
 
I think those saying that the HD800's needs to be modded to sound good - have not heard it with a good source and the Moon's.  No need for mods.  The MJ2 with top tubes and the HD800/MBD V2 should be an excellent combination.  Me and many folks I know completely disagree with Tyll's assessment of the HD800's.
 
http://www.head-fi.org/t/634201/battle-of-the-flagships-58-headphones-compared#user_HD800

 

[Mediahound]

   
I would try the Moon Black Dragon V2 cable first before any mods.  My HD800s with this cable - is perfect!  And a serious contender when compared to my friends Stax 09 setup.  A highly refined source helps a lot.
 
The stock HD800 did very well in David Malhers 'Battle of 58 Flagships' Headfi thread - finishing #6 ahead of the LCD3's and HE-6 (the HEK were not available then).
 
I think those saying that the HD800's needs to be modded to sound good - have not heard it with a good source and the Moon's.  No need for mods.  The MJ2 with top tubes and the HD800/MBD V2 should be an excellent combination.  Me and many folks I know completely disagree with Tyll's assessment of the HD800's.
 
http://www.head-fi.org/t/634201/battle-of-the-flagships-58-headphones-compared#user_HD800

Just FYI- Tyll actually recommends modding them: http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/diy-modification-sennheiser-hd-800-anaxilus-mod#2GvwpTZarkSTUHlw.97

 

[AustinValentine]

 
Just FYI- Tyll actually recommends modding them: http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/diy-modification-sennheiser-hd-800-anaxilus-mod#2GvwpTZarkSTUHlw.97

 
Right, he says that he disagrees with them needing mods (and with Tyll's recommendation to mod them). 
 
And that his solution for the HD800's inherent fatigue - which is almost certainly caused by reflections in the cup - is to purchase a $200-400 aftermarket cable instead of $15 worth of Felt or Rug Liner plus double-sided adhesive Creatology foam to produce a non-permanent, easily reversible modification.
 
Then, for gravy, he made sure to imply that anyone who says different just hasn't heard the HD800 from a good source ("I think those saying that the HD800's needs to be modded to sound good - have not heard it with a good source and the Moon's.") 
 
To each their own. I'm hardly an objectivist, but in this case I trust the measurements used to confirm the problem (like Purrin's waterfall plot), the 3D modeling used to theorize causation (like Arnaud's), and then the widely implemented low-price solution that effectively addresses the modeled problem and produces both measurable and audible/subjective results. 
 
If someone wants to buy an expensive cable and try that instead, I'm sure not going to try to stop them. I'm sure Moon Audio and other boutique cable manufacturers need to be able to buy shoes for their kids too. 

 

[mangler]

Looks like @PETEREK
 will be able to reterminate my Fostex TH-900 to XLR (with an adapter to the original plug, no less!), so I'll be sticking with those. I just love their sound so much, it'd be a shame to waste them on the single-ended output. 

To go with this news, I've placed an order for the Gungnir Multibit, WYRD, and some PYST cables to run them. Can't wait to hear this all connected and running fully balanced. The "end" is in sight!

I'm also considering reterminating my TH900, so I'd love to hear your impressions of how the sound changed going from SE to balanced out on the M2

 

[ziis]

It's been about a year since I asked about using 7dj8 in the Lyr2. I was curious of the situation would be different with M2, and so I sent an email asking if 7dj8 would work in the Mjolnir 2. Here is the response I got:

"We don’t recommend them, as long as the current spec for the heater is at or under 415mA you should be fine"

Thanks.. That's a surprise, according to Upscale Audio:
 
"7DJ8/PCC88 are a great choice.  They are absolutely compatible with virtually any product that uses 6922 and 6DJ8   Whether it's an amp, preamp, CD player, whatever."
 
While Schiit says M2 can take 6DJ8 tubes.

 

[Trastan]

I'm also considering reterminating my TH900, so I'd love to hear your impressions of how the sound c:rolleyes:hanged going from SE to balanced out on the M2

Absolutely; I'll post my experience here. Really unfortunate that the cable isn't easily replaceable. Oh well. I love them anyway.:rolleyes:

 

[mangler]

Absolutely; I'll post my experience here. Really unfortunate that the cable isn't easily replaceable. Oh well. I love them anyway.:rolleyes:

Yeah, the lack of removable cable is my only real complaint about the TH900 I think they sound pretty great SE, so I bet they're amazing balanced. The difference between my LCD-X SE and balanced is quite noticable, so I have high hopes!

 

[mangler]

Thanks.. That's a surprise, according to Upscale Audio:

"7DJ8/PCC88 are a great choice.  They are absolutely compatible with virtually any product that uses 6922 and 6DJ8   Whether it's an amp, preamp, CD player, whatever."

While Schiit says M2 can take 6DJ8 tubes.

I thought it was odd too, but maybe Mjolnir 2 has atypical demands? (I know jack about the technicalities of tubes, so that may not even make sense)

 

[Trastan]

Yeah, the lack of removable cable is my only real complaint about the TH900

I think they sound pretty great SE, so I bet they're amazing balanced. The difference between my LCD-X SE and balanced is quite noticable, so I have high hopes!

So do I. The fact that the stock cable is already of pretty high quality and balanced-ready is definitely appreciated.

 

[money4me247]

  Right, he says that he disagrees with them needing mods (and with Tyll's recommendation to mod them). 
 
And that his solution for the HD800's inherent fatigue - which is almost certainly caused by reflections in the cup - is to purchase a $200-400 aftermarket cable instead of $15 worth of Felt or Rug Liner plus double-sided adhesive Creatology foam to produce a non-permanent, easily reversible modification.
 
Then, for gravy, he made sure to imply that anyone who says different just hasn't heard the HD800 from a good source ("I think those saying that the HD800's needs to be modded to sound good - have not heard it with a good source and the Moon's.") 
 
To each their own. I'm hardly an objectivist, but in this case I trust the measurements used to confirm the problem (like Purrin's waterfall plot), the 3D modeling used to theorize causation (like Arnaud's), and then the widely implemented low-price solution that effectively addresses the modeled problem and produces both measurable and audible/subjective results. 
 
If someone wants to buy an expensive cable and try that instead, I'm sure not going to try to stop them. I'm sure Moon Audio and other boutique cable manufacturers need to be able to buy shoes for their kids too. 

I hesitant to wander into this type of debate, but this a pretty good resource of what type of scale you can typically expect with different types of "tweaks": 
http://en.goldenears.net/index.php?mid=KB_Columns&document_srl=1921&m=0
 
basically headphones or listening space (which is more of a speaker set-up but would correlate with mods involving damping/earcup/earpads in headphones) can cause 1-20 dB difference in measured FR. With interconnections, you are looking at a scale of 0.001-0.1 dB measurable change in the FR curve. I personally have not found a cable (yet) that measures any significant FR change though if anyone thinks that their cable does, I would be happy to measure it for you. For earpads swaps or other mods, I have found it to be very dependant on the headphone and the specific mod. Some mods/earpad swaps cause little to no measureable change while others can drastically change the overall sound signature to a point where non-audiophiles can recognize and appreciate the difference. The AKG K553 pro was one recent example where I found you can easily drastically alter its measured sound signature to a very significant degree with earpad swaps (with the stock pleather earpads measuring the best out of all the options I've tried including the several Brainwavz and the Alpha Prime earpads). The HE-400S on the other hand measured to have really no real dramatic FR change in earpad swaps (velour vs focuspads) or with grill mods.
 
With that in mind, I think it would be wiser to pursue the measurement-based mods first prior to cable upgrades if specifically trying to alter the sound signature of a pair of headphones in general. Of course, as always, if unhappy with the sound of your headphones, you will gain the largest change in overall sound simply by switching headphones.

 

[rb2013]

Well I beg to differ on the HD800 mods - but if they work for you awesome.
 
I stand by David Mahler's comments on the HD800's he is someone whose opinion I trust.
 

Today, I would say that I consider the HD800 to be the most tonally neutral of all the headphones that I've ever had the pleasure of hearing. This attribute alone makes the HD800 one of my most often-used headphones. 

STRENGTHS NEUTRALITY KING: In my opinion, the HD800 is the neutrality king. Depending on the setup, the HD800 may sound warm or bright. Because of its finicky nature with regard to amplification, many have described the HD800 as bright, but I cannot get on board with this description. I have heard the same pair of HD800's sound both dark and bright when paired with different setups. It really is a very amp-dependent headphone.
 

David Mahler's stash for his epic review - 'Battle of 58 flagships' Headfi thread.  So some may not agree with David's conclusion and #6 ranking of the HD800's - but I'd say it's hard to argue he has a lack of experience and knowledge about audiophile HP's.
http://www.head-fi.org/t/634201/battle-of-the-flagships-58-headphones-compared#user_HD800
 
Being a musician I have found them the most natural and neutral of all the HPs I've tried - the Stax SR009s being close.  But a little added planar like euphonics does sweeten them (and darken them a touch - in a LCD like fashion), adds greater weigh and definition to the bass.  But giving them greater clarity and transparency.  So for me the $400 for the very well built Moon's was money well spent. Going back to the stock cable is not some thing I'd even consider - I've tried it - a major let down.
 
Since the HD800's ship stock with a SE cable - if you're using them with the MJ2 and want the best it can offer you'll need to run your HP's in balanced mode - you should consider the Moon Black Dragon balanced as a possible path.  I have had these amazing HP's for over 3 yrs  - with 3 different cables and 5 different amps.  For the last two being completely satisfied with the Lyr/HD800/Moon combination.   Before the Lyr I had a Woo WA6-SE.   The Lyr required top tubes to really get there - but it did for me.
 
After rolling 50 different type of 6922's in the Lyr over the course of a year.  I boiled it down to 17 top tubes. Here is the in depth review I did of those 17 - 6922 types in the Lyr. http://www.head-fi.org/t/761078/6922-tube-review-17-top-6922-6n23p-e88cc-cca-7308-e188cc-tubes
 
So now comes the MJ2 and I will be getting one - and my hope is it even better then the Lyr (no reason it shouldn't), being balanced, quieter and more powerful (in balanced mode).
I'm particularly excited about hearing the HD800's with the MJ2 - as David stated in his review:

 BALANCED MODE: I've found that the HD800 scales particularly well in balanced mode - better than most other headphones. With the HD800 in balanced mode, I clearly notice an added sense space and dimension

 
Cheers!

 

 

[Argo Duck]

^ Whilst I don't have a position on this off-topic mods versus cable discussion - and as a pianist I can agree the HD800 sounds natural and neutral with a lot of material I've tried - we cannot ignore that everyone hears differently.

Thus it's not an issue of whether David is trustworthy, experienced and knowledgeable. For the record, he \strikes me as all of these things. The issue is that he is one listener representing one data-point. Obviously there are those - you rb2013, possibly me as well - who provide supporting data-points to his personal findings. Equally obviously, others hear and find differently - together with supporting measurements no less!

It's important to acknowledge not only the wide variance in how we hear and decode but also the great range of knowledge and expertise contributed by a large number of members here, not least of them being professional acoustic engineers such as Arnaud!