[Exacoustatowner]

Hello guys, I just recently bought a [COLOR=222222]1975 6N23P Reflektor SWGP tube in mint condition, I thought I would share my impressions since I've heard this tube spoken about on this thread with such high regard (I was using these on my Project EMber 2.0 amp with HD 650 'cans and a decent DAC). Be prepared for a surprise.[/COLOR]

[COLOR=222222]JJ ECC82 (stock tube with Ember 2 amp)[/COLOR][COLOR=222222]
[/COLOR][COLOR=222222]Clarity: 5.5/10. THD: 7/10 (higher THD is worse). Bass: there but somewhat muddy / not a pleasing presentation, maybe be a bit rolled off in the subbass. Energy: 2/10. Impact: 2/10. Overall impression not even on the same playing field as being 'refined', weak soundstage & impact 'slam', sounds like very high THD resulting in a very very fake-'ish sound. My ranking 2/10[/COLOR]



[COLOR=222222]1975 6N23P Reflektor SWGP Silver Shields (somebody called this a 'Holy Grail'???)[/COLOR]
[COLOR=222222]Clarity: 5.7/10. THD: 6.5/10. Bass: able to reproduce proper bass frequencies including sub-bass, but muddy and not at all a pleasing presentation. Energy: 3/10. Impact: 2.5/10. Overall impression about 20% more refined than the above: improved clarity, soundstage, FR & impact than the above by about 20%, but remains 'unlistenable' to me and much, much much more to be desired in a sound signature. My ranking: 3/10.[/COLOR]
[COLOR=222222]



For a little background, I am a music producer, and with my interactions with Head-Fi'ers at meets and online I have found myself to be an especially analytical listener. And as far as the reason I have rated the 'holy grails', so lowly, it's simply because I have tried to many other hi-end setups at meets and of my own, so for me, the bar for what I expect out of sound has been raised all the way to the Woo Audio / Eddie Current / Stax / Yggy level.

So after a long, critical listen to the Reflektor tubes, I put in the stock ECC82 tubes shown at top, which made me realise the Reflektor was only about 20% more refined. Next I had popped in my 'Franker Ember' tube setup into the Ember amp, which consists of dual Ken-Rad 7193 tubes connected via both a 6SN7 and 7193 adapter, and WOW, wow, wow! I know this defines logic but my brain kept shouting out a number: "48x better!" I noticed an improvement all across the board: far superior dynamics, larger / more lifelike soundstage, energy, realism & detail, dramatic enough to make me so I'll never touch the Reflektor again.



Then into the stratosphere of sonic perfection (all IMO), the Liquid Carbon amp sounds twice as good as the Ember 2 setup above, and the Eddie Current Zana Deux sounds almost twice as good as the LC, and (I've heard) that the Eddie Current Studio"wasn't even in the same league" as the Zana Deux. Here are these absolute TOTL multi-thousand dollar tube amps from Eddie Current:





So as you can see there is amazingly greater potential for sound that can be had than the first 2 entry-level tubes mentioned above. I'm leaning towards giving up on tubes of those size, because IMO, the general rule of thumb is that larger tubes sound better. And since the Schiit Lyr and Project Ember may both use the same type of tubes, I'm willing to bet that the awesome 7193 tubes would be possible on the Lyr amp. But it would have to be connected to the Lyr as two separate tubes rather than the dual 'Franken Ember' setup, so you'd have to do some checking for possible adapters to use for it, and the case may need to be removed from the Lyr to make them fit.

If anybody's still interested to buy a Reflektor tube, send me a PM and I'll be happy to sell it.
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I'm confused. Did you try a matched pair of Reflektor SWPG 75 in a Lyr or a single in something else?

 

[gibosi]

  Nope! How do they sound?

 
In my amp, the E182CC sound great! Their sound is very similar to the Heerlen E88CC and E188CC, which makes sense as they were manufactured in the same factory. But while these are much more like an E188CC than a pair of 7193s, it is still impossible for me to predict how they will sound in a Lyr. Maybe someday someone will try them....

 

[DecentLevi]

Oh, I'm admittedly still new to tube rolling. I have only tried about 17 tubes at home (3 sizes), and a few more at headphone meets. But from what I have experienced every single time (with the exception of the CDM with it's tiny 6111 tubes), was that the larger tubes always gave a better sound in every way. But I actually don't have a clue what a power tube is or how to tell if/which one is a power tube or what that does, so I may have been mistaking a power tube for an audio-tube.
 
But really I think you guys can trust my ears that the Reflektor tubes are not the 'holy grail' and much more can be had, probably from the same size tubes as well. Also if somebody can find a way to try 7193 tubes (Ken Rad or RCA are the best) in the Lyr, I genuinely think you will be impressed.

 

[DecentLevi]

I'm confused. Did you try a matched pair of Reflektor SWPG 75 in a Lyr or a single in something else?

The photo shown of the Reflektor just happened to be a pair, but I tried just 1 of the Reflektor's directly into the only slot of the Ember amp for a tube. The only reason you see 2 of the 7193's with the Ember amp is because it's using a dual tube converter.

 

[Exacoustatowner]

The photo shown of the Reflektor just happened to be a pair, but I tried just 1 of the Reflektor's directly into the only slot of the Ember amp for a tube. The only reason you see 2 of the 7193's with the Ember amp is because it's using a dual tube converter.

As I understand it what sounds good in one may not in another. Particularly because no one seems to be able to say WHY one sounds better. The other possibility is that the tube is shot. Did it come with measurements? I know Rb2013 used to get several duds from Russia for every good one.

 

[ThurstonX]

  The photo shown of the Reflektor just happened to be a pair, but I tried just 1 of the Reflektor's directly into the only slot of the Ember amp for a tube. The only reason you see 2 of the 7193's with the Ember amp is because it's using a dual tube converter.

 
Did you buy the 1975 Reflektor off of eBay, or did you buy it from someone you know and trust, specifically someone who tested it?  Or did you test it?  I ask, because a lot of the Russian tubes sold on eBay are complete crap.  The former resident Russian tube expert (rb2013) bought dozens (hundreds?) of tubes from Russian and eastern European eBay sellers, with a significant percentage (more than half, IIRC) of them testing bad to worthless.  I've bought Russian tubes that sound like crap, and a few that are quite good.  The best pair of Russian tubes I have I got from rb2013, and they certainly  don't fit the description in your first post.  That's why I ask.
 
So, the source, and esp. test result(s), matter a great deal, esp. when it comes to Russian tubes bought on eBay.
 
You should probably offer it up on the Ember thread, or in the For Sale forum, as the Ember only needs one tube.
 
Good luck.

 

[DecentLevi]

I'm not sure if it was tested, but upon carefully inspecting it, I found it to be in 100% pristine condition, not even a fingerprint, giving me the impression that I was the first person to use it. I bought it from a headphonus supremus member here with a high seller rating. The 1975 6N23P Reflektor SWGP is still for sale for anybody interested. I've heard it can however synergise much better depending on your setup.

 

[Guidostrunk]

If you just got them. I'd recommend judging them after the 150 hour mark. They start to open up around 60/75 hours.

Oh, I'm admittedly still new to tube rolling. I have only tried about 17 tubes at home (3 sizes), and a few more at headphone meets. But from what I have experienced every single time (with the exception of the CDM with it's tiny 6111 tubes), was that the larger tubes always gave a better sound in every way. But I actually don't have a clue what a power tube is or how to tell if/which one is a power tube or what that does, so I may have been mistaking a power tube for an audio-tube.

But really I think you guys can trust my ears that the Reflektor tubes are not the 'holy grail' and much more can be had, probably from the same size tubes as well. Also if somebody can find a way to try 7193 tubes (Ken Rad or RCA are the best) in the Lyr, I genuinely think you will be impressed.

 

[gibosi]

  But really I think you guys can trust my ears that the Reflektor tubes are not the 'holy grail' and much more can be had, probably from the same size tubes as well. Also if somebody can find a way to try 7193 tubes (Ken Rad or RCA are the best) in the Lyr, I genuinely think you will be impressed.

 
How a tube performs is very dependent on the amplifier. While the 7193 sounds great in your amp, this is no guarantee that it will sound great in a Lyr. In the first Lyr thread, a number of folks tried the 6CG7, which is essentially a 6SN7 stuffed into a 9-pin all glass miniature bottle. Now the 6CG7 / 6SN7 is one of the great tubes for audio, but the consensus was that it sounded pretty bad in the Lyr. And this is not a surprise as the optimal circuit for a 6CG7 / 6SN7 is quite different than that for a 6DJ8. Given that the 7193 is very similar to the 6J5, which is 1/2 of a 6SN7, I seriously doubt that it would perform well in the Lyr. Further, as each 7193 draws 0.3A of heater current, two of them will draw 0.6A. The original Lyr can handle this much heater current, but the Lyr 2 cannot.
 
Now, as many know, I am all for trying new tubes, so I really do hope someone does try these in a Lyr. I would love to be proven wrong! lol  However, in a different amp, specifically, an amp designed to run 6SN7, I would expect the 7193 to sound very good. And in fact, I look forward to trying a pair in my 6SN7-based OTL.

 

[Exacoustatowner]

If you just got them. I'd recommend judging them after the 150 hour mark. They start to open up around 60/75 hours.

Sir Guido! How are you?
He has a single not a pair. He tried and disliked it in a different amp.

 

[Astral Abyss]

  Oh, I'm admittedly still new to tube rolling. I have only tried about 17 tubes at home (3 sizes), and a few more at headphone meets. But from what I have experienced every single time (with the exception of the CDM with it's tiny 6111 tubes), was that the larger tubes always gave a better sound in every way. But I actually don't have a clue what a power tube is or how to tell if/which one is a power tube or what that does, so I may have been mistaking a power tube for an audio-tube.
 
But really I think you guys can trust my ears that the Reflektor tubes are not the 'holy grail' and much more can be had, probably from the same size tubes as well. Also if somebody can find a way to try 7193 tubes (Ken Rad or RCA are the best) in the Lyr, I genuinely think you will be impressed.

 
I'm going to have to go ahead and disagree with you on that one.  I have a pair of 75 Reflektor HGs in my Lyr2 and they sound better than any of my other tubes.  And they aren't even at 50 hours yet.  You probably have either a dud or a fake.

 

[MWSVette]

   
I'm going to have to go ahead and disagree with you on that one.  I have a pair of 75 Reflektor HGs in my Lyr2 and they sound better than any of my other tubes.  And they aren't even at 50 hours yet.  You probably have either a dud or a fake.

+1, I totally agree.  With the exception of my CCa's which cost several times more I find the HG's to be my goto tubes for the Lyr.   rb2013 would tell you that the Russian tubes can take as long as 200 hrs to fully burn-in.

 

[gibosi]

It is important to remember that DecentLevi did not use the HG in a Lyr. He has a different amp. And aside from the fact that everyone has different ears, it may well be that the HG simply doesn't sound all that good in his amp. However, I would agree that there is a very large and strong consensus that the HG is a top-tier tube in the Lyr.

 

[Astral Abyss]

+1, I totally agree.  With the exception of my CCa's which cost several times more I find the HG's to be my goto tubes for the Lyr.   rb2013 would tell you that the Russian tubes can take as long as 200 hrs to fully burn-in.

I unfortunately dont have any CCa's in my collection yet. I'd love to try some CCa's at some point, they're just so expensive.

 

[Guidostrunk]

You don't see these CCa's , everyday. Lol

http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&id=281755115544&alt=web