Schiit Lyr Tube Rollers
Dec 9, 2017 at 5:45 PM Post #15,271 of 23,493
I have to give a shout out to @rnros who pushed me to the 6SN7 GT/A/B, 2C51/5670/6N3Ps and 6C8Gs many moons ago. He kept telling me the 6SN7 GTBs really punched above their price range. I rolled my stubby 1955 GEs yesterday, and now with about 75 hours total they are holographic detail monsters. King Crimson's Larks' Tongues In Aspic was spectacular. I find 6SN7s have good staging and imaging, but for some reason these were revelatory. 24 hours later it's still all good. :beerchug: Bob.

Lyr 1 only in the Schiit amp line. For the sheer variety this amp can roll, I will never let it go.

Thanks, Tony. :beerchug: Agree that the Lyr1 is a great platform for tube rolling.
LOL, I purchased the Lyr1 after I already had the Lyr2, for that reason, with the result that I have used the Lyr1 much more than the Lyr2.
Not that the DC heater supply in the Lyr2 is not a solid benefit, it is, just that the use of 600mA Octals in the Lyr1 is a larger benefit.
You know, not sure if I ever tried a GE in the 6SN7 group, but I will. : )
 
Dec 9, 2017 at 6:14 PM Post #15,272 of 23,493
Thanks, Tony. :beerchug: Agree that the Lyr1 is a great platform for tube rolling.
LOL, I purchased the Lyr1 after I already had the Lyr2, for that reason, with the result that I have used the Lyr1 much more than the Lyr2.
Not that the DC heater supply in the Lyr2 is not a solid benefit, it is, just that the use of 600mA Octals in the Lyr1 is a larger benefit.
You know, not sure if I ever tried a GE in the 6SN7 group, but I will. : )
I remember selling a pair of tubes that were fine in my Lyr2 and then noisy in his Lyr 1, guessing the DC heaters lower the noise floor. For some reason he "upgraded" to the Lyr 2 and tubes were fine. Still would much rather have more rolling options in my MJ2 and Lyr2.
 
Dec 9, 2017 at 6:41 PM Post #15,273 of 23,493
What do you mean when you say "better"? I feel like some people have preferences and focus on those, and say something is better, when they simply mean they prefer it. I've noticed with tubes, that some tubes do certain things better/worse than others. What I am looking for is precise solid-state like imaging, a large soundstage, good instrument separation/timbre, because I listen to alot of classical. The Voskhods did that in spades. I find other tubes sound good and may do certain things better, but imagining may be fuzzy/soft/vague and less precise. So for me it would not be "better" because I rely on precise imaging.

Agree with everything you said, except the Voskhod comment, not that it's a bad tube, just not the best for what you describe. IMHO, of course.
For me, especially with classical/acoustic music, that would be the Reflektor 6N3P-E, and that's with multiple amps and headphones.
Especially agree that purchasing a 'better' tube, only to find a FR shift or some other minor characteristic, without any real technical improvement, is beyond disappointing.

Until recently that meant spending $400 or $300, but even if the expense is 'only' $100, if there is no real improvement, it is still a waste of good money and time. However, with the recommended tube, the investment is just a few dollars. You can buy a few tubes for a few dollars, or a whole box of 50 NOS/NIB tubes in their original individual sealed boxes for $50 plus shipping.

Since you have the Valhalla2 in your signature, I will add that I have had '86 (or'83?) Reflector 6N3P-E and '66 Foton 6N6P in my VALH2 for over a year and a half without feeling any need to roll tubes.

Matching? For driver tubes, that depends on who you ask, with these Reflector 6N3P-E true NOS tubes the variation, triode to triode and tube to tube, is likely to max at 15%, and usually much closer than that. So buy a few and listen to them, swap tubes if necessary, the goal is the accurate, centered, 3D aural projection. Even if you have a perfectly 'matched' pair, it may fail to deliver the solid 3D projection. Anyway, some tube dealers provide Platinum Grade at "typically 10% or tighter, but may be higher depending on available stock," and Gold Grade at "typically between 15% and 20%..."
That's the easiest, quickest, and least costly answer.
 
Dec 9, 2017 at 7:44 PM Post #15,275 of 23,493
those are these huh?.......

E88CC / 6922 Amperex USA made white PQ type, RARE 1950s vintage D shape getter,white label gold pins.MATCHED PAIRS

New Old Stock white Box. Numbers etched into the glass. Fabulous original 1950s vintage white label with the D-shape getter sought out by audiophiles who know the sonic richness of this fine tube! PQ shield or USN-CEP military label type Amperex tubes. Ultra low noise, matched triode sections, heavily plated gold pins. Carefully matched to within 2 percent. SINGLE TUBES, WHEN AVAILABLE, ARE $150.00 EACH.

$300.00 per pair
 
Dec 9, 2017 at 7:56 PM Post #15,276 of 23,493
Different years and getter, O vs D, I have heard the USD D getter version, Amperex 6922 1960 but I have not heard the O getter. For Holland late 50's Amperex 6922 D getter I much prefer those compared to the 60's Holland O getters. IMO.
 
Dec 9, 2017 at 10:39 PM Post #15,277 of 23,493
Different years and getter, O vs D, I have heard the USD D getter version, Amperex 6922 1960 but I have not heard the O getter. For Holland late 50's Amperex 6922 D getter I much prefer those compared to the 60's Holland O getters. IMO.
I have 60,s o getter 6922.

Neutral with a touch of warmth

Detail is fair-good. Smooth sounding. Nicely rounded. Nothing spikey or out of place

I guess similar to holland e88cc but with a little less weight and less of the forward tone. Detail is probably about the same or close. Usa 6922 more neutral and a little more evenly balanced

My opinion is they are a good tube but not oustanding. It was one of my first tubes. I respect it but dont use it much.

The 7308 are more neutral and a bit more detail and air. More open. Nice clean sound.

I would have thought the 6922 (on ebay) should be about $120-$150 and the 7308 ($150-$200)

If youre working within a budget than $130 would be a fair price for it. If you are going higher then i would overlook thE USA 6922 pq

IMHO

or just wait for a PW USA 6922 for $400 and mever worry about other usa amperex tubes again

Neutral, open well balanced. Touch of warmth. Good depth. Smooth but detailed
 
Last edited:
Dec 10, 2017 at 3:54 AM Post #15,278 of 23,493
Agree with everything you said, except the Voskhod comment, not that it's a bad tube, just not the best for what you describe. IMHO, of course.
For me, especially with classical/acoustic music, that would be the Reflektor 6N3P-E, and that's with multiple amps and headphones.

I only have experience with 6922 tubes. I have the Lyr2 now. Between LISST, EH gold pins and the stock tubes, the Voskhods were by far the best, especially for classical (closest to solid state sounding without losing organic tube quality). So it's all relative. I would be perfectly happy with Voskhods and never upgrade, but I keep hearing about supposedly better tubes, so I will experiment.
 
Dec 10, 2017 at 4:47 AM Post #15,279 of 23,493
I only have experience with 6922 tubes. I have the Lyr2 now. Between LISST, EH gold pins and the stock tubes, the Voskhods were by far the best, especially for classical (closest to solid state sounding without losing organic tube quality). So it's all relative. I would be perfectly happy with Voskhods and never upgrade, but I keep hearing about supposedly better tubes, so I will experiment.
Telefunken e188cc are very clean, detailed and transparent. I’m not sure If the imaging is exceptional for classic as thats not usually my main concern. Theyre not cheap so not sure if they fall within your budget but they are my purest tube.
 
Dec 10, 2017 at 8:47 AM Post #15,281 of 23,493
I love those Tung Sol 2c51 in your link, I got 2 pair elsewhere and 2 from your link. I find these better than most of my expensive 6922 variant collection. Excellent bass, killer midrange, wide soundstage etc. I think those Haltron`s may be GE tubes reprinted as Haltron. Not 100% sure though. I am not a fan of the GE tubes myself although many people like them, they have excellent bass, highly detailed but way too much high end emphasis for my taste.
 
Dec 10, 2017 at 8:49 AM Post #15,282 of 23,493
Would these Haltrons be any good?
These Tung-Sols?

The Haltrons are GE, some here can offer impressions on the GE.
The Tung Sols are one the highly regarded 2C51s discussed on this thread, I also share that opinion.
I think that seller has also had favorable comments here.

Edit: @TK16 We must have been typing at the same time... Great description, as usual.
 
Last edited:
Dec 10, 2017 at 8:57 AM Post #15,283 of 23,493
The Haltrons are GE, some here can offer impressions on the GE.
The Tung Sols are one the highly regarded 2C51s discussed on this thread, I also share that opinion.
I think that seller has also had favorable comments here.
I’ve had those Tung Sols on my watch list for well over a month. Very reasonably priced too. But I already have a couple pair thus the reason for still watching. I like the 2 pair I have a lot as they pair really well my my TH900 and a few others.
May have to pick these up as a small little Christmas present to myself. Thanks for the reassurance on this particular set.
 
Dec 10, 2017 at 1:36 PM Post #15,284 of 23,493
I enjoyed the voskhods for the weight in the bass . Imaging... not so much. If you’re determined to stay with 6922 variants the 74 reflektors walk all over the rockets when it comes to imaging and instrument separation . Though there is virtually no warmth to the sound when compared to the rockets. 75s are the best to me but still have problems with musicality. Miniwatts are better in every regard to me. Both French and Dutch . The French are kind of a mix of both the russkies and Dutch .
That said, it’s worth buying the adapters and trying some budget 5670/ 2c51 and 6n3p-e tubes.
 
Last edited:
Dec 10, 2017 at 3:12 PM Post #15,285 of 23,493
Matching? For driver tubes, that depends on who you ask, with these Reflector 6N3P-E true NOS tubes the variation, triode to triode and tube to tube, is likely to max at 15%, and usually much closer than that. So buy a few and listen to them, swap tubes if necessary, the goal is the accurate, centered, 3D aural projection. Even if you have a perfectly 'matched' pair, it may fail to deliver the solid 3D projection. Anyway, some tube dealers provide Platinum Grade at "typically 10% or tighter, but may be higher depending on available stock," and Gold Grade at "typically between 15% and 20%..."
That's the easiest, quickest, and least costly answer.

TL;DR: Only for the obsessive without tube testers.

One step further, and again referring to triode driver tubes (voltage gain stage), we are told:
The three parameters that are relevant in matching tubes are Gm (Transconductance), Rp (Plate Resistance), and Mu (Gain).
And, Mu = Gm x Rp. And, for triode driver tubes in a voltage gain stage, the important number is Mu. Check the following for more detail:
http://www.tubeaudiostore.com/tubmatdem.html
http://www.augustica.com/Tutorials/Tubes/matching_triodes_and_pentodes.htm
https://www.audioantiquary.com/en-us/categorie/valvole-nos-nib/

So, if Mu (voltage gain), is the important number, and it can be calculated from test measurements, then it's easy.
But if you don't have a tube tester, or you bought a DIY tube tester and haven't bothered to finish it :) ...
Why not just measure the voltage output directly, triode to triode, tube to tube, in the circuit being used, and match accordingly?
(In the Schiit hybrid amps, rectification and power output are solid state, and assumed to be consistent and well matched channel to channel,
so you are not dealing with other tube stage variables.)

I'm only suggesting this for true NOS tubes from the same batch, box, and/or production run.
You are then only comparing gain between new/unused tubes built from the same component pieces, assembled in the same way, at the same time.
With the RFL 6N3P-E this is possible because these are still available in true NOS pristine condition in any quantity you choose.

You need a voltage meter and a tone file. Voltage meter can be expensive or modest. Tone file can be created or downloaded.
You can use 1kHz as a typical default, or you can use more than one tone to check response at different frequencies.
If you want to check the individual triodes, you can use a hybrid amp like the Vali2 which uses one triode per channel.
Remember these will be relative values, meaning they are only relevant when comparing values using the same circuit, signal level and volume pot setting.
And yes, volume pots can have some small channel imbalance at either extreme, but you can check this.
Or, you can do two readings, one at full open and one at a typical listening level.
Remember that even between tube testers, the numbers are not going to be completely consistent.

So you can match your tubes to 1%, 5%, 10%, whatever you choose.
How long does it take for a new tube to reach a reasonable stability for reliable numbers?
Another question would be: How long did the tube dealer give your matched pair of tubes? :)
With the RFL 6N3P-E, my experience is that ~30 minutes will usually give numbers that (may) fluctuate within 10% for the first ~60 hours of burn.
And then settle to something close to the original readings. But in the first few hours, after ~20 minutes, there is very little or no fluctuation.
Bigger question is: Can you actually hear the difference between a 1% or 5% match and a 10% match?

Most importantly, you are actually listening to each tube to check sound quality first, something that the measurement numbers can never tell you.

Again YMMV. Not saying that this method is any where near complete, or even adequate, just a pragmatic and useful approach.
For me, not only pragmatic and consistent, but with results equal to, or surpassing, my expensive dealer-matched tube pairs (which I don't listen to anymore :)).
(BTW, first thing I did with my DMM was to test the V output on those dealer-matched pairs, and yes they were very close.)
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top