Schiit Happened: The Story of the World's Most Improbable Start-Up
Nov 2, 2023 at 10:26 AM Post #129,781 of 149,721
Digital cables can’t possibly make a difference! That’s what my engineering mind tells me.

That’s what I thought until about a week ago, when I tried a silver coax cable (BNC.)

I know AES is supposed to be best, but I now prefer BNC over AES. Maybe those single-ended greybeards were on to something after all… :wink:
Digital cables carry a clock signal, which in many ways can be treated as analog. As in, it's not a simple 'did the bits get there intact' question.

Cables not made to the correct characteristic impedance may adversely affect jitter and this can be measured. Though it's not something that one needs to spend lots on, just make sure you're getting one that is made tightly to spec. Van Damme and Mogami both have ones I've verified to be very close

Digital signals are really just shifts in voltage levels. They are in essence analog.

[ ⚠️ Oversimplifications Ahead ⚠️ ]

Let's say you've got a USB signal, which uses a 3.3V logic level. It's a common misconception that 0V would mean a '0' and 3.3V would mean a '1,' and that the changes between the two would be instantaneous and pretty much make your signal look like a perfect square wave.

That's what they teach you in high-school level computer labs, anyway. But that's not how it actually works.

Instead, anything below a certain voltage threshold (for a 3.3V logic signal usually somewhere between 0.4V and 0.8V depending on implementation) will be interpreted as a '0,' and everything above a certain voltage threshold (usually somewhere between 2.0V and 2.4V depending on implementation) will be interpreted as a '1.'

For any voltages between those two thresholds it's up to the implementation details of your chip and/or straight-up dumb luck with whatever interpretation you'll end up with. So you really don't want to live in that voltage range of your signal, veeery bad ju-ju.

But here's the thing… Those logic signals are being generated by physical objects that are subject to the same laws of physics as all your analog electronics are. Switching between logic low and logic high isn't instantaneous. That switch takes a little bit of time. And during that time, the voltage will rise gradually, not instantaneously. There will be a bit of slew. Maybe even some bounce. Depending on the capabilities of your voltage source, there can be droops and sags along the way, too.

Usually, that isn't really all that big of a problem. If you take some care to only ever sample your logic level voltages after it had enough time to settle in properly, you'll be golden. And in a lot of applications (like networking, for example) there are error handling or error correction procedures built right in to the different protocol layers.

🍑 But…

Not in audio, as most digital audio signals that travel through your cables are unidirectional, meaning the stream goes from device A to device B, but device B has no way of calling back to device A with a pretty-please to re-send something because it got corrupted along the way.

And corrupted, things can get quite easily.

That nice and chunky transformer that you're routing your USB cable right past could be inducing a low "baseline" voltage of 0.2V or 0.3V in your data lines, nudging you closer to that lower end of that bad ju-ju range you want to stay out of.
The constant changes in voltage level in your clock line can induce tiny spikes in your data lines that run right along your clock line.
A cable's impedance (change in resistance as a function of signal level) changes with its length. The longer a cable gets, the higher its impedance. The higher the impedance, the harder it gets for your chips to quickly switch between voltages. As a result, your slew rate goes up. Which, in turn, could mean that you're running the risk of sampling your data signal before it had time to settle in, and you could end up measuring a '1' when it should be a '0', and vice versa.

…just to name a few.

In audio streams, occasionally reading a '0' where there should be a '1,' or reading a '1' where there should be a '0,' isn't that big of a deal. Nothing breaks, the stream won't cut out, and your speakers won't blow up. In data applications like networking, misinterpreting even just one single bit can mean that your file is corrupted and unusable. But in audio, the worst that will happen is that your DAC momentarily outputs a voltage level for that particular sample that's slightly too high or slightly too low. You're unlikely to even consciously hear that error.

But if these errors happen somewhat often and constantly, as in a handful of times per millisecond, you are ending up with a lot of audio samples that are off by a little bit. Or as we audio enthusiasts would call it: Distortion.

And so in an attempt to somewhat reduce the likelihood of these logic level interpretation errors to sneak in, you can help your gear out by using non-crappy digital interconnects. Pick one that is as short as you can get away with, that's properly shielded, and that tries to somewhat reduce contact resistance.
In short: Pick something that's adequate for medium to high speed data transfer rates like a good printer cable, and not just a Dollar-fifty cable from your friendly Dollar Store, and you should be golden. The same goes for other kinds of digital interconnects.

Buy that kilo-bucks interconnect cable made from just the finest strands of pure-gold angel hair if it makes your synapses tingle. It's a hobby, and those audiophile digital interconnect manufacturers need to get their kids through college just as much as the next guy.

But objectively, dropping a hundred-something bucks on a 50cm long "audiophile" USB cable won't get you any better results than a decent quality 10 or 20 bucks printer cable would.

Digital audio interconnects absolutely matter. But that threshold to when you enter la-la-land is considerably lower than a lot of audiophiles would like to think.
 
Nov 2, 2023 at 10:41 AM Post #129,782 of 149,721
If I had to pick a main reason that I buy and recommend Schiit then it is Schiit Happened. The fact that &i get some insight into the thoughts, goals and approaches used by the designers to create these products. This helps me decide if the products are right for me: if they are aligned with my wants and values.

I don't want unnecessary cost and complication. I enjoy a beautiful mathematical or technical solution. I want things that have longevity and repairability. These are values that make it so that with most companies I have no idea whether I want their products or not, but with Schiit, I can read these chapters and find out!
The book is exactly the thing that made the first sale for me. I'd heard about the company by word of mouth and checked out the web site, thinking "well, this looks like kind of an odd operation, I wonder what's their deal?" There was a link to the book somewhere on the site, so I followed it and read the whole thing over a couple of days, which thoroughly answered the question of what their deal was.

I was unhappy with a competitor's headphone amp around that time and I picked up an Asgard 3 after reading the book. That impressed me enough to look into a Bifrost 2, and it was the isolated USB input that I think really sold the rest of the stuff I've bought from Schiit since then—here was finally a DAC that took all the ugly noise spewing out of my USB port and stopped it dead.
 
Nov 2, 2023 at 10:49 AM Post #129,783 of 149,721
Digital signals are really just shifts in voltage levels. They are in essence analog.

[ ⚠️ Oversimplifications Ahead ⚠️ ]

Let's say you've got a USB signal, which uses a 3.3V logic level. It's a common misconception that 0V would mean a '0' and 3.3V would mean a '1,' and that the changes between the two would be instantaneous and pretty much make your signal look like a perfect square wave.

That's what they teach you in high-school level computer labs, anyway. But that's not how it actually works.

Instead, anything below a certain voltage threshold (for a 3.3V logic signal usually somewhere between 0.4V and 0.8V depending on implementation) will be interpreted as a '0,' and everything above a certain voltage threshold (usually somewhere between 2.0V and 2.4V depending on implementation) will be interpreted as a '1.'

For any voltages between those two thresholds it's up to the implementation details of your chip and/or straight-up dumb luck with whatever interpretation you'll end up with. So you really don't want to live in that voltage range of your signal, veeery bad ju-ju.

But here's the thing… Those logic signals are being generated by physical objects that are subject to the same laws of physics as all your analog electronics are. Switching between logic low and logic high isn't instantaneous. That switch takes a little bit of time. And during that time, the voltage will rise gradually, not instantaneously. There will be a bit of slew. Maybe even some bounce. Depending on the capabilities of your voltage source, there can be droops and sags along the way, too.

Usually, that isn't really all that big of a problem. If you take some care to only ever sample your logic level voltages after it had enough time to settle in properly, you'll be golden. And in a lot of applications (like networking, for example) there are error handling or error correction procedures built right in to the different protocol layers.

🍑 But…

Not in audio, as most digital audio signals that travel through your cables are unidirectional, meaning the stream goes from device A to device B, but device B has no way of calling back to device A with a pretty-please to re-send something because it got corrupted along the way.

And corrupted, things can get quite easily.

That nice and chunky transformer that you're routing your USB cable right past could be inducing a low "baseline" voltage of 0.2V or 0.3V in your data lines, nudging you closer to that lower end of that bad ju-ju range you want to stay out of.
The constant changes in voltage level in your clock line can induce tiny spikes in your data lines that run right along your clock line.
A cable's impedance (change in resistance as a function of signal level) changes with its length. The longer a cable gets, the higher its impedance. The higher the impedance, the harder it gets for your chips to quickly switch between voltages. As a result, your slew rate goes up. Which, in turn, could mean that you're running the risk of sampling your data signal before it had time to settle in, and you could end up measuring a '1' when it should be a '0', and vice versa.

…just to name a few.

In audio streams, occasionally reading a '0' where there should be a '1,' or reading a '1' where there should be a '0,' isn't that big of a deal. Nothing breaks, the stream won't cut out, and your speakers won't blow up. In data applications like networking, misinterpreting even just one single bit can mean that your file is corrupted and unusable. But in audio, the worst that will happen is that your DAC momentarily outputs a voltage level for that particular sample that's slightly too high or slightly too low. You're unlikely to even consciously hear that error.

But if these errors happen somewhat often and constantly, as in a handful of times per millisecond, you are ending up with a lot of audio samples that are off by a little bit. Or as we audio enthusiasts would call it: Distortion.

And so in an attempt to somewhat reduce the likelihood of these logic level interpretation errors to sneak in, you can help your gear out by using non-crappy digital interconnects. Pick one that is as short as you can get away with, that's properly shielded, and that tries to somewhat reduce contact resistance.
In short: Pick something that's adequate for medium to high speed data transfer rates like a good printer cable, and not just a Dollar-fifty cable from your friendly Dollar Store, and you should be golden. The same goes for other kinds of digital interconnects.

Buy that kilo-bucks interconnect cable made from just the finest strands of pure-gold angel hair if it makes your synapses tingle. It's a hobby, and those audiophile digital interconnect manufacturers need to get their kids through college just as much as the next guy.

But objectively, dropping a hundred-something bucks on a 50cm long "audiophile" USB cable won't get you any better results than a decent quality 10 or 20 bucks printer cable would.

Digital audio interconnects absolutely matter. But that threshold to when you enter la-la-land is considerably lower than a lot of audiophiles would like to think.

I'm aware of the mechanics of digital signal transmission. And whilst yes they are in reality analog, the point is that generally speaking, if the data gets there intact it doesn't matter if it arrived with the analog aspects being different. The fact that the information was not so mangled as to be misinterpreted is the key.

In situations such as over USB where that is all that matters, that is indeed all that matters. Data being incorrect will be VERY obvious, and is not a tricky issue to solve. The idea that a silver USB cable will more reliably get your data to the other end intact is almost always false. And there is no audio clock signal carried over the connection, everything is buffered by the receiving device and then converted in time with its own clock.

It's AES/SPDIF/I2S which do carry an audio clock signal which is used as a reference for conversion by the receiving DAC. And therefore cables not to the correct characteristic impedance may adversely and measurably affect performance. This is NOT a case of 'go buy an expensive cable' though, it's a case of 'spend enough to make sure you're getting something right'. As mentioned Van Damme and Mogami both have cables I've tested to be extremely accurate to the required spec.
 
Nov 2, 2023 at 11:00 AM Post #129,784 of 149,721
The book is exactly the thing that made the first sale for me. I'd heard about the company by word of mouth and checked out the web site, thinking "well, this looks like kind of an odd operation, I wonder what's their deal?" There was a link to the book somewhere on the site, so I followed it and read the whole thing over a couple of days, which thoroughly answered the question of what their deal was.

I was unhappy with a competitor's headphone amp around that time and I picked up an Asgard 3 after reading the book. That impressed me enough to look into a Bifrost 2, and it was the isolated USB input that I think really sold the rest of the stuff I've bought from Schiit since then—here was finally a DAC that took all the ugly noise spewing out of my USB port and stopped it dead.
And that does connect to Armchair Philosophers post about digital interconnects as well.

If the USB input of your DAC is bad at stopping noise from getting to the rest of the DAC, then it might be somewhat beneficial with a cable that can help hinder the noise. But watch out: hindering noise and hindering signal is pretty much the same thing! If you can safely regard some frequencies as noise and some frequencies as signal, and you can filter accordingly, your golden. But if you can do that then the input circuitry probably already does. And for a signal that should ideally be as close to a square wave as possible, the only thing that is really safe to block out is DC and far-too-low frequencies. And no cable (ignoring the ones that purposely includes filters) does that, that is the job of a transformer-coupled input.
 
Nov 2, 2023 at 11:04 AM Post #129,786 of 149,721
If the USB input of your DAC is bad at stopping noise from getting to the rest of the DAC, then it might be somewhat beneficial with a cable that can help hinder the noise. But watch out: hindering noise and hindering signal is pretty much the same thing! If you can safely regard some frequencies as noise and some frequencies as signal, and you can filter accordingly, your golden. But if you can do that then the input circuitry probably already does. And for a signal that should ideally be as close to a square wave as possible, the only thing that is really safe to block out is DC and far-too-low frequencies. And no cable (ignoring the ones that purposely includes filters) does that, that is the job of a transformer-coupled input.
In my case, the problem was that there was so much junk on the line that EMI leaked into the analog outputs of the other DAC that the Bifrost replaced. You can get the bits there just fine, but there's still an analog circuit after that to worry about.
 
Nov 2, 2023 at 11:05 AM Post #129,787 of 149,721
I'm sorry, but there won't be any audible difference between any YggDrasil and an Apple dongle. Both are excellent (audibly transparent) the only difference is one costs $1000s more
Have you listened to both, side by side?
 
Nov 2, 2023 at 11:13 AM Post #129,788 of 149,721
I'm sorry, but there won't be any audible difference between any YggDrasil and an Apple dongle. Both are excellent (audibly transparent) the only difference is one costs $1000s more
You may be in the incorrect forum and/or planet.
 
Nov 2, 2023 at 11:22 AM Post #129,789 of 149,721
You may be in the incorrect forum and/or planet.
May also be the correct one, if it can lead dakanao to an opportunity to listen to the two mentioned DACs side-by-side in a relaxed and enjoyable setting.
 
Nov 2, 2023 at 11:36 AM Post #129,791 of 149,721
Klipsch has a fairly rabid following too. Which is weird because most of their speakers are not well designed.
That's a bit harsh.

The design is very old and distinct. The speakers still made in Hope, AR are very well built. For home theater, it's hard to beat RF-7 variants for the fronts, and the RC-64 variants for the center channels. Speaking for the legacy series mainly, they are a "fun" speaker for listening. I don't think many "rabid klipsch fans" would argue that detail retrieval or imaging is their strong suit.

It's not always a priority to have reference, well measuring, and neutral gear. If that were the case, the folkvangr and Vali 1 wouldn't have existed. YMMV
 
Nov 2, 2023 at 11:40 AM Post #129,792 of 149,721
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Nov 2, 2023 at 12:40 PM Post #129,793 of 149,721
I'm sorry, but there won't be any audible difference between any YggDrasil and an Apple dongle. Both are excellent (audibly transparent) the only difference is one costs $1000s more

Well, thankfully you are wrong.
 
Nov 2, 2023 at 12:55 PM Post #129,794 of 149,721
Well, thankfully you are wrong.
This is interesting. To me it is "unfortunately, that is wrong (to my ears)". I'm fortunate that many agree with me and some do produce DACs that further the art, but I think I'd be grateful if digital audio actually had been easy to perfect and all we had to worry about was amplifiers and transducers.

Not to mention the state of the art would be much much better by this point if that was the case. Not only would digital not have taken as much of our resources and focus, but it would also have greatly helped analyzers and measurements - maybe in small ways in terms of performance but greatly in terms of proliferation and affordability. This could've accelerated transducer and amplifier development quite a lot.
 
Nov 2, 2023 at 1:11 PM Post #129,795 of 149,721
I'm sorry, but there won't be any audible difference between any YggDrasil and an Apple dongle. Both are excellent (audibly transparent) the only difference is one costs $1000s more
This assumption only makes sense if you think of a DAC as a completely digital device that is able to perfectly convert data to a voltage. But inherent in the concept of a DAC is that it is going to have an analog side. The analog output stage is going to have a pretty huge influence on the sound output. Additionally the accuracy that the digital side manages the data to voltage conversion will have an affect.

Some DACs sound very similar. Others can have significant differences. Much of this can be attributed to the analog output stage and a large device with more room for better components will likely sound a good deal better than one that can fit into a small cable.
 

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