[flargosa]

Main reason is that "audiophile" power regenerators are giving very small benefits for a lot of money.

I think you can make that argument between amps and dacs of different price points. The difference between the Magni 3 and a more expensive amp is probably small, yet many go for the higher price option for a tiny sonic upgrade.

 

[schiitfanboy69]

Very interesting thank you for sharing. As I see it there are two objectives for the FTC relating to the “made in USA” label:
1. Protect American consumers from misleading advertisement. This one you covered thoroughly.
2. Reward manufacturers that choose to keep their business within the United States. This obviously has the sub goal of preserving US manufacturing industries. The merit of such a goal is obviously beyond the scope of this discussion.

It seems that the FTC has focused on the first point at the expense of the second. Perhaps using this “assembled” as opposed to “made” designation is their answer but it could be argued that this reduces clarity hurting both consumers and industries. If products made by a company that goes to the lengths that schiit does are classified the same as a company that only does final assembly in the States then everyone loses.

It’s easy to simply blame the FTC for taking what appears to be the lazy approach, though they obviously have chosen a simple approach that doesn’t consider nuance. However we need to keep in mind the scope of their assignment (all US trade). If we analyze the schiit product line in a vacuum then yes it’s unrealistic to expect the raw materials and electrical subcomponents must be from the states to claim “Made in USA”. However it’s also unrealistic to expect the FTC to understand the intricacies of fabrication and supply chain management for every industry that may want to claim “Made in the USA”.

What this boils down to is the government wanting to help US consumers and producers but lacking the expertise to do so in the best possible way. Such a situation is quite common, hence the existence of organizations such as ASTM, ASME, IEEE, ANSI, etc. and their numerous subcommittees.

Perhaps the best solution to defining these onshore production claims is to lean on such organizations. This way, refocusing on audio components, there will be clearly defined categories and associated compliance requirements that are accepted to be reasonable for the industry. Just food for thought, obviously you guys are connected with the industry and probably have better insight as to whether such a committee or effort like what I’ve described exists.

 

[Ragnar-BY]

I disagree.
In a stack of high quality audio appareil it's an instant upgrade of SQ.

Yes and no.

Power conditioner do make a difference, I agree. This difference might be quite notable in transparent system, I agree.

But in some locations mains power could be "good enough". Equipment with well-designed PSU could benefit from clean power less than other, because good PSU is effectively filtering out mains noise. Some equipment would show no improvement at all.

Money spent on acoustics get you a lot of improvements. Money, spent on amps and DACs give you less, but still these are effective upgrades. Changing your laptop for dedicated streamer would give you even less bang for a buck. And only after that it`s time to spend some cash on a power regenerator. A lot of audio enthusiasts would stop at a DAC stage, because people generally can`t afford all toys they want.

That`s why power regenerators are not so popular. I would not call power filtering/conditioning/regenerating useless. But it`s neither first, nor even second thing a music lover should care about.

 

[Ragnar-BY]

I think you can make that argument between amps and dacs of different price points. The difference between the Magni 3 and a more expensive amp is probably small, yet many go for the higher price option for a tiny sonic upgrade.

And unfortunately, there are no $99 power regenerators that would be as good, as Magni is for it`s price.

 

[flargosa]

And unfortunately, there are no $99 power regenerators that would be as good, as Magni is for it`s price.

You are essentially making the argument that audiophiles wouldn't pay more for a little sonic improvement and that "good enough" is what they are after. I don't know if you are right on that one. Anyway, maybe power regenerators for headphone amps can be lower in price, because less power requirements.

 

[Ragnar-BY]

You are essentially making the argument that audiophiles wouldn't pay more for a little sonic improvement and that "good enough" is what they are after.

Well, as a person, who have "audiophile USB-cable" I definitely would not say that

Initial question was "Why isn't power regenerators popular among headphone users?" And as an honest person I`ve answered "because they do less than they cost".

From the audiophile position I can say only one thing - buy everything, try everything and have fun. Even the most weird snake oil (like cable stands) is good if you have fun playing with it.

 

[AndreYew]

I know Jason's not going to reveal who Bob is (it's not important anyway), but Benchmark's site gives some food for thought:

https://benchmarkmedia.com/pages/rohs-and-prop-65-statement

And check out their product pages' "Assembled in USA" verbiage.

https://benchmarkmedia.com/products/benchmark-ahb2-power-amplifier

It's probably just my overactive imagination, but it's great to think that Benchmark and Schiit are friends!

 

[JamminVMI]

Prop 65 warning is on the site...but only shown to California purchasers at checkout, since those are the only people it applies to. Same with packaging—Prop 65 stickers only go on boxes going to California, or paid for with a California card.

A little bit of complication saves confusion for everyone who doesn’t live here in this state...we’re all used to seeing Prop 65 warnings in coffeehouses and breweries, and on pretty much everything we buy...hell, they are on power cords. Nobody in California pays much attention to them.

We had friends in from the UK the other day, and they commented on a Prop 65 label they had seen somewhere at LAX, so I grabbed a Schiit box and read your “warning” aloud - to lots of laughter... (No, we hadn’t started drinking at that point.)

Almost as good as the outhouses at Pocock... Life’s more fun when you DO pay attention...

 

[Ableza]

Been doing some reading on power regenerators for audio equipment. Why isn't power regenerators popular among headphone users? Seems like something that can potentially benefit an amp and something Schiit can make at more reasonable prices?

1) because their impact is very much dependent on the quality of power in one's home and in some cases they have no impact at all; 2) because they are expensive, expensive to make, and tend to be large; 3) because most audio companies spend a lot of design time and money creating power supplies that do not need these things; 4) Schiit making such a device would take resources away from other more important to their future and likely more lucrative efforts; 5) but hey, if you want to go for it and then think it rocks your world, more power to you!

 

[ItsAllInMyHead]

Very interesting thank you for sharing. As I see it there are two objectives for the FTC relating to the “made in USA” label:
1. Protect American consumers from misleading advertisement. This one you covered thoroughly.
2. Reward manufacturers that choose to keep their business within the United States. This obviously has the sub goal of preserving US manufacturing industries. The merit of such a goal is obviously beyond the scope of this discussion.

<snipped>

Great thoughts. One point to potentially discuss. The agency in my opinion does nothing of the sort for #2. They only handle #1, and it is a core purpose of their mission. Consumers handle #2 based on the accuracy and good faith behind #1 (and how much the labeled designation is valued against their pocket book).

 

[Ableza]

Country of origin labels are required by law, by international trade agreements and by customs and government import/export agencies. Their main reason for existence today is legal (liability, certifications, taxation, tariffs.) The reason there are rules on conditions for labeling something as "Made In" wherever is bureaucratic.

 

[sam6550a]

This discussion about what 'made in USA' really means has been fascinating. I know that new cars have a sticker that states the point of final assembly and also the % content of parts from suppliers in the US.

Another company that's known for its 'made in USA' approach is the clothing company American Giant. Their clothes are made from cotton grown in the US, spun into thread and made into fabric at US cotton gins and textile mills, and finally assembled at workshops/factories located in the US. I wonder if that fully qualifies as 'made in USA'?

The way our regulatory bodies work, they probably will disqualify this company because the gin and loom utilize lubricants that originated outside of the US.

 

[sam6550a]

Yes and no.

Power conditioner do make a difference, I agree. This difference might be quite notable in transparent system, I agree.

But in some locations mains power could be "good enough". Equipment with well-designed PSU could benefit from clean power less than other, because good PSU is effectively filtering out mains noise. Some equipment would show no improvement at all.

Money spent on acoustics get you a lot of improvements. Money, spent on amps and DACs give you less, but still these are effective upgrades. Changing your laptop for dedicated streamer would give you even less bang for a buck. And only after that it`s time to spend some cash on a power regenerator. A lot of audio enthusiasts would stop at a DAC stage, because people generally can`t afford all toys they want.

That`s why power regenerators are not so popular. I would not call power filtering/conditioning/regenerating useless. But it`s neither first, nor even second thing a music lover should care about.

If equipment designers would consider poor AC power quality in their designs, there would be no need for these devices. Often, the power supply is the last thing 'designed', and often depends on 'cook book' solutions. Not a good deal.

 

[porchwizard]

If equipment designers would consider poor AC power quality in their designs, there would be no need for these devices. Often, the power supply is the last thing 'designed', and often depends on 'cook book' solutions. Not a good deal.

Your comments would seem to be a generalization / opinion about some parts of the audio industry. Having read Jason's book/posts it is clear that Schiit spends a great deal of time and energy on power supplies. One of the things I enjoy with this group is all the various equipment comparisons and mentions that I often follow up on to learn more about all the cool stuff in the crazy/cool audiophile world (I really started from what I would call Hi Fi and I only have a toe in audiophilia, or to paraphrase Suicidal Tendencies, "All I wanted was a DAC."). One thing manufacturers seem almost anal about is power supplies. Maybe I'm just living under a bridge but It seems like this may be a solution in search of a problem.

 

[artur9]

Our board guys are still either in Simi Valley or Pleasanton, and, again, they manufacture there, not overseas.

Given the contents of this posting, you need to get your Simi Valley suppliers to send over some of their very fine wines. I have very fond memories of a trip there long ago.

How about proving something was made in the USA by disintegrating it and showing that the isotope percentages could only have originated in the US?

Lastly, the label I don't like is "Designed <somewhere>, Manufactured in China." I need my components manufactured in exotic locations like Valencia or Cleveland