[twinkle]

Originally Posted by Baldr /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 
In those days, the audiophile scene was really emotionally polarized between analog and digital. Ana-philes and digi-philes....

Lol! that sounds really dirty!
It's easy to forget where we came from, but I think the younger generations can go more seamlessly from one to the other, maybe because there's been a convergence in the evolution of both sounds.
 
Quote:

... the four dreaded words: “pretty good for digital”. At that moment I realized I needed to listen to my analog system again....

  hey, we've waited over 30 years for digital to get done right, we can wait a little more

 

 

[ToddTheMetalGod]

  hey, we've waited over 30 years for digital to get done right, we can wait a little more

Considering the first forms of modern turntables (phonographs) have been around since ~1880, digital is advancing pretty smoothly in my opinion . I'd say they were probably adopted by the upper class in 1900 with products like the Victrola. Obviously these were extremely early forms and back then manufacturing wasn't nearly as good as it is now, but I'd say all things considered digital is coming along pretty well.

 

[tonykaz]

Hello jacal01 ,
 
Thank you for writing back and the insight into these DACs from France and Romania . Phew , how did you manage to notice these lads ? , you must be East of the Berlin Wall somewhere .  
  I need a bit of resale value to trigger a purchase which is why I'm contemplating a MSB Analog DAC if Schiit doesn't come thru with a break thru in their hoped-for Yggi device .   Until then I'll putter along with the ODac from JDS Labs .   
  I too am a bit off on my design/implementation of electronics being in my 7th Decade ( still I'm an Electrical Engineer by Trade , Torque Measurements my speciality ) .   I do understand the importance of careful Power-supply design , the MSB Analog DAC has multiple power supplies .   
  On the Petrochemical Industry future : I'm hearing things about the BRIC Nations about to create a competitor to the PetroDollar .  Oh-my , that would have a loooooong range effect on many Industries including some of mine .  
  We live in exciting times .  
  Thank you again ,
   Bon Vivant ,
   Tony in Michigan

 

[jacal01]

Yeah, waaaaay east, across the Kipling East meets West divide, and back again all the way to Yeehaw! Git along ya little dogie! country.  There's a reason why I chose the Slim Pickens character as my avatar, among others.  Nice try, tho.
 
The reason why those 2 particular ones are on my radar is that they represent quality DACS at the lower end of the discrete resistor ladder conversion DAC pricing range, and I believe that they realize those relative economics in that they achieve the horribly expensive exact resistor value matching across channels via modern day laser trimming, which I think Schiit is also now taking advantage of.  Of course I could be completely off base, too.  But there’s still an appreciable disparity in cost between those two and the Yggy’s projected price, and that makes me appreciate the Schiit sense of value even more.
 
But if you’re talking pricing disparity, then yeah, the MSB Analog DAC is the current perceived discrete R2R benchmark DAC, alright.  In fact, let me know when you are fixing to resell it.  

 
Good info, but as a good engineer who mostly obsesses technical challenges in my little myopic world, I don’t pay too much attention to the market machinations of global economics, unless they vote to become the BRICT block of petrochemical producers.  And we’ve been in the ‘awl bidness’ a long time, too.

 

 

[Suichan]

  Here in the UK, Electromod seem to be the "official resellers" or something similar; I can't remember where I found the site so it may or may not be official. But they do sell all the Schiit stuff.
Prices seem to be about the same in £GBP as in the original $USD, i.e. Bifrost is $349 from Schiit direct or £349 from Electromod.
 
That's a fairly steep markup, depending on the current precise value of the £, and of course any resellers will be getting a vendor or price from Schiit rather than retail, but it's probably still fairly good value. I was considering ordering direct from Schiit but after international shipping, import duties/taxes and the shipping company's handling fee (since they pay customs directly and then charge you a hefty handling fee to do that), the price shipped internationally is probably higher than the local reseller's price anyway. Plus there's the issue of returns/support, and the Schiit is more likely to get damaged via International transit anyway.
 
Currently, according to XE, $350 USD is £213.68 GBP (mid market rate), so Electromod are profiting approx. £137 for a Bifrost, plus bulk/vendor discounts, minus shipping/import fees/etc.
Interestingly, until recently the Magni/Mode were each just £90, I've been waiting and saving to get one of each plus the cables, but when I checked just now my original links didn't work (they seem to have had a site redesign, or at least moved their items around), and they're back up to £99. Disappointing, hopefully that's to cover higher import costs or lower vendor discounts rather than just skimming extra profit from their customers.

 
I posted this just the other day, just checked Electromod again today and they're down to £80 each for the Magni/Modi (although the PYST USB cable is up to £20 from £13). So if you're a Brit and looking for some new Schiit I suggest buying now - I'm not sure if it's a promotion (doesn't say anything on the site) or a mistake on Electromod's part - or maybe their £99 was a mistake and they've corrected it - but I wouldn't wait around for the price to go up again!
 
Seems as though not just the Magni and Modi are down in price actually - the Bifrost at least is lower than it was the other day. Secret sale? Quiet price drop? Who knows! I'm planning on picking up the M&M ASAP just in case.
 
XE tells me that $99 USD is £60.44 GBP so there's still a fairly high margin there for Electromod, but if they *are* buying at retail rates from Schiit I doubt they'll drop the price any more.

 

[JohnnyCanuck]

 
 
XE tells me that $99 USD is £60.44 GBP so there's still a fairly high margin there for Electromod, but if they *are* buying at retail rates from Schiit I doubt they'll drop the price any more.

 
Don't forget that they have to add the VAT on to their sell price.  So, that adds -what- another 20%?

 

[OddE]

 
XE tells me that $99 USD is £60.44 GBP so there's still a fairly high margin there for Electromod, but if they *are* buying at retail rates from Schiit I doubt they'll drop the price any more.

 
-Not really; unless I am much mistaken, the $99 price does not include any sales tax, whereas in the UK there's a 20% VAT/sales tax on most products. GBP60+20% VAT = GBP72. Add shipping from the states and there's not much of a margin left. (I somehow doubt that Schiit's bulk rates, if they even exist in the first place, are much lower than retail. The Magni/Modi doesn't exactly scream 'HIGH MARGIN!!!')

 

[Suichan]

JohnnyCanuck, OddE - True, VAT at 20% plus Customs charges etc, and I'm not sure if it applies for businesses, but for consumers one of the courier/postal companies will deal with the Customs charges and then charge a hefty handling fee (in addition to the charges themselves) for their time and 'service'. That's one of the reasons why I looked at Electromod in the first place; because even with Schiit's better RRP price, after all the import duties, tax and fee it'd still cost more than just getting them from EM.
 
Oh, also forgot to mention that XE lists the mid-market rate, so EM wouldn't get as good value ££ for their $$ from their bank/Paypal/whoever they use to pay Schiit anyway.
 
So yeah, probably not especially high margin profits on Electromod's end, it just sucks that we have to bear the burden of all these extra fees. You guys in the US get much better value bang-for-the-buck on your products. And AFAIK there aren't that many decent British audio products that are as decently priced (with as good quality) as Schiit.

 

[JohnnyCanuck]

 
So yeah, probably not especially high margin profits on Electromod's end, it just sucks that we have to bear the burden of all these extra fees. You guys in the US get much better value bang-for-the-buck on your products. And AFAIK there aren't that many decent British audio products that are as decently priced (with as good quality) as Schiit.

 
You're not alone in getting shafted when it comes to pricing, Suichan.  We here in Canada have similar taxes/duties, etc.  We feel your pain.

 

[swspiers]

We get antsy waiting for the next installment...

 

[Currawong]

Back to the topic please.

 

[twinkle]

I've been burning to ask Mike and Jason: what do you mean when you say Yggdrasil will be "bit-perfect"?

 

 

[yay101]

I've been burning to ask Mike and Jason: what do you mean when you say Yggdrasil will be "bit-perfect"?  

Educated guess: Like the bifrost all samples are sent as is to the DAC instead of all being converted to 24/96000 for example.

 

[superjawes]

I've been burning to ask Mike and Jason: what do you mean when you say Yggdrasil will be "bit-perfect"?  

I think Mike posted an answer to this in this thread already (somewhere...).

But basically, all DACs on the market today approximate the original samples because it is mathematically impossible* to get the originals back without using an infinite number of components. Better chips get you closer to the original sample, but you still aren't 100% bit-perfect.

Now I put the asterisk on "impossible" because Mike challenged a mathematician friend (mentioned in part of the Yggy saga) to come up with a closed order solution. In other words, they found a solution to recover the original samples without any approximation and without throwing anything away. Yggdrasil should completely reconstruct every single bit of the original sample. You could say it does it "perfectly", hence the term "bit-perfect".

 

[rmullins08]

Any news on Mani's release?  I think the last update we saw was just waiting for parts, with a mid-sept launch.