[rmullins08]

  Also, there are an ASTOUNDING number of people who simply won't order anything if it isn't on Amazon. I mean, simply, crazily, amazing numbers. But when you factor in the allure of guaranteed 2-day shipping, plus the various deals Amazon has for people to shop with card points, plus the millions of people who get Amazon gift cards...
 
...think of it this way--Amazon is doing the heavy lifting for us in terms of silly things like perks/discounts/loyalty programs--which saves us an amazing amount in administration of such price-inflating strategies. Let the experts at selling do things like selling...concentrate on making your products better, is what I'd say.
 
Aaannd...as far as the reviews on Amazon, yes, they go a long way to countering the various perceptions of some people still clinging to the "durr, produkts blow up hedphones, ncompitent ingineers, desined by eeer," crowd.

 
Hadn't thought about the gift cards/points perspective.  I will stick with schiit.com which works just fine for me.

 

[Jason Stoddard]

   
Hadn't thought about the gift cards/points perspective.  I will stick with schiit.com which works just fine for me.

 
And we'll thank you for it!
 
Direct is the simplest, and most, well, direct way of working with us. Amazon is just a convenience for those who have been sucked into the Amazon ecosystem, or are looking for some kind of a "deal."

 

[JohnnyCanuck]

   
And we'll thank you for it!
 
Direct is the simplest, and most, well, direct way of working with us. Amazon is just a convenience for those who have been sucked into the Amazon ecosystem, or are looking for some kind of a "deal."

 
Agreed.  I often check Amazon for products unknown to me to verify their 'validity', or at least to give me some sense of reassurance.  In Schiit's case it's also valuable for those who haven't heard of the brand before.  Let's face it; with all those buyers of Beats headphones there has to be some kind of new market forming here.  An Amazon presence can only help.
 
Personally, my two purchases from Schiit have been direct, and I will continue that.  Bring on Yggdrasil.

 

[ebiscaia]

Jason,
 
Sorry for repeating my question:
 
"As an engineer, can you give your perspective about tube buffers? Something like using Vali's tubes for buffering the signal before Magni. Do you think the overall sound will change that much?
 
And what if you feed one amp with another one? Is the final sound a mix of them?"
 
Thanks anyway,
 
Eduardo

 

[Defiant00]

  What's your motivation for selling on Amazon if the margins are so low?  I'd guess that the purpose is being present on Amazon when people search for products on Amazon, along with the good ratings you get.  Eventually, some of these people will find your website and so long your shipping is less than the higher cost on Amazon people will buy directly.

 
I think you misread his explanation a little. He said that if they didn't charge the $10 extra then the margins would be too low; since they do charge the extra it works out for them.

 

[StefanJK]

   
I think you misread his explanation a little. He said that if they didn't charge the $10 extra then the margins would be too low; since they do charge the extra it works out for them.

I think I understood Alex correctly.  Selling through Amazon costs them on average more than $10 extra and they don't make up the difference 100% by charging $10 more, but they still  make enough to make it worth their while.  My question is why they don't mark up the full incremental costs that Amazon creates.   I'm not asking why they sell at a loss through Amazon, I'm asking why they don't have the same profit margin on all distribution channels (taking costs into consideration).  I have an academic background in these sorts of problems, so I can do the full blow mathematical version of the decision problem here, so my baseline may be a bit non-standard.  Basically, I'm asking is how this is not the 'standard and boring' constant elasticity of demand problem, where mark-ups are constant across markets.    I can think of lots of possible reasons, I wanted to know which one they perceive makes this the right policy.  

 

[Defiant00]

  I think I understood Alex correctly.  Selling through Amazon costs them on average more than $10 extra and they don't make up the difference 100% by charging $10 more, but they still  make enough to make it worth their while.  My question is why they don't mark up the full incremental costs that Amazon creates.   I'm not asking why they sell at a loss through Amazon, I'm asking why they don't have the same profit margin on all distribution channels (taking costs into consideration).  I have an academic background in these sorts of problems, so I can do the full blow mathematical version of the decision problem here, so my baseline may be a bit non-standard.  Basically, I'm asking is how this is not the 'standard and boring' constant elasticity of demand problem, where mark-ups are constant across markets.    I can think of lots of possible reasons, I wanted to know which one they perceive makes this the right policy.  

 
Fair enough, you may be right, it's certainly possible that I'm the one who misread

 
You're obviously much more well-versed on this topic than I am, so I'll stop now in an attempt to not make a further fool of myself

 

[StefanJK]

 
You're obviously much more well-versed on this topic than I am, so I'll stop now in an attempt to not make a further fool of myself

Yes, lets not derail the thread...why mark-ups vary by channel and by time for the same channel is one of the big mysteries of economics (just google 'exchange rate pass through' for one version of this -- one version is that our inability to model this is why macroeconomics doesn't work reliably). 

 

[RickB]

   
And we'll thank you for it!
 
Direct is the simplest, and most, well, direct way of working with us. Amazon is just a convenience for those who have been sucked into the Amazon ecosystem, or are looking for some kind of a "deal."

 
I find myself ordering Schiit stuff on Amazon because the shipping is better-- it's cheaper and much faster than getting it shipped from California to Florida. Usually it's shipped from a warehouse in the southeast.

 

[forkliftHIFI]

   Amazon is just a convenience for those who have been sucked into the Amazon ecosystem, or are looking for some kind of a "deal."

 
I am glad to see you guys offer sales through Amazon because I can use my Amazon credit card and get 12 months no interest financing.  Hopefully at some point the Yggdrasil is at least offered through the Amazon storefront and I can pay half up front and use Amazon financing for the other half.  That said the burning need for a 'real' DAC is making it hard to not just buy a Gungnir (or Bitfrost) right now.  Can't wait to see some first hand accounts comparing the two.          

 

[kstuart]

 

   Amazon is just a convenience for those who have been sucked into the Amazon ecosystem, or are looking for some kind of a "deal."

 
I am glad to see you guys offer sales through Amazon because I can use my Amazon credit card and get 12 months no interest financing.  Hopefully at some point the Yggdrasil is at least offered through the Amazon storefront and I can pay half up front and use Amazon financing for the other half.  That said the burning need for a 'real' DAC is making it hard to not just buy a Gungnir (or Bitfrost) right now.  Can't wait to see some first hand accounts comparing the two.          

I would say that you have to own pretty damn good (and expensive) gear to hear the incredibly subtle differences between the Uber Bifrost (w/2nd Gen USB) and more expensive DACs.   Generally, someone who could use a Yggdrasil-level DAC is someone who is already involved in the very-high-end audio hobby.
 
Note that you should be able to sell a used Uber Bifrost relatively easily if you do opt for Yggdrasil.  Or else use the Bifrost in another room (that is what I did with the other excellent L.A.-manufactured DAC that was replaced by Bifrost).

 

[forkliftHIFI]

  I would say that you have to own pretty damn good (and expensive) gear to hear the incredibly subtle differences between the Uber Bifrost (w/2nd Gen USB) and more expensive DACs.   Generally, someone who could use a Yggdrasil-level DAC is someone who is already involved in the very-high-end audio hobby.
 
Note that you should be able to sell a used Uber Bifrost relatively easily if you do opt for Yggdrasil.  Or else use the Bifrost in another room (that is what I did with the other excellent L.A.-manufactured DAC that was replaced by Bifrost).

 
My speaker rig is pretty damn good in my (non audiophile) opinion.  

  Good enough to tell the difference between the DACs?  I don't know 

  That said right now I'm just using a cheap HDMI audio splitter for my sound.  It has a little less background fuzz than the PC sound card.  My friends bitfrost uber with my amps had no background fuzz until the volume knob was maxed and your ear was actually against his speakers. 

 

[tonykaz]

Mr. Kstuart , 
 
Today , just now , pretty damn good gear is available at the $1,000 price point , gear that will clearly reveal the qualities of DACs like the MSB . 
Which is exactly why people like Schiit are trying to bring this 21st. Century technology down in price .  
  We have superb transducers like the ie800 , Shure 846 , LCD-3 etc. , we no longer need the $250,000 Wilson Loudspeakers and their matching Super Electronics to enjoy our great recordings , we can have our great musics whist sitting on a Park-Bench at Lunch time .  
  Pioneers like MSB and Schiit combined with Consumers like you and I are changing the World of Music Reproduction , for the better !! , keep in mind that established outfits (and the Media : Stereophile/TAS) are still promoting the Edison Player and it's Ritualistic Ceremonies .
  Vinyl died around 1985 , it didn't rise from Death on Easter Sunday , it continues to be dead and no amount of praying over it by the High Priests will change that important fact .  
 Mr. Kstuart , you are on a good path , you can in fact re-sell your Bifrost for about 80% of MSRP with an ebay listing , you can upgrade as better technology becomes available , you are Free to make good informed decisions without Sales Pressure , you have the best the World has to offer at your fingertips . 
  We live in Exciting Times .
Tony in Michigan 

 

[Ableza]

Been traveling again and just catching up on this thread.  Two points: Without R&D a company is just a commodity supplier, in my opinion.  Nice to read confirmation that it is part of what drives Schiit forward - but I pretty much knew that from their ever evolving product line.  Second, it was the irrational rants by NWAVGUY and his cult-like followers who made me check our Schiit and buy their products in the first place.  Anything that generates such emotion is worth a look, IMO.  And I was happy to learn that the products and the company are outstanding, making the opinion behind the rant equally irrational. 

 

[Baldr]

Ok all, I have been busy on Yggy (RMAF less that 3 weeks away) and helping correct some errors I made on Mani gain switch positions
 
So here (late, with apologies) is the next Yggy Back story segment:
 
Yggdrasil: The back-saga, Part 2
 
So here I was, at home in Sherman Oaks, occasionally modifying a Toshiba CD Player, struggling with the necessary space to not only continue modding CD players, but to actually begin prototype manufacturing with eccentric personalities who were either total night-owls used to eating lunch at midnight (Dave and myself), or wannabe farmers who got up at 4AM (John).
 
The bottom line was that I needed an office/workspace where any and all had access. At the time, I had some bucks saved, but with little money coming in I was interested in cheap. I found a quaint, windowless, 400 square foot office in Van Nuys for $160 per month. It was 2 blocks from the regional courthouse and cop headquarters, free parking, and was surrounded by a wide variety of interesting business, both in and out of the building! We had bail bondsmen, vd clinics, criminal lawyers, and travel agents with “send money back home” windows in the back. (All of my time in South America had paid off - I could actually read all of the business signage!)  We had a variety of some of the best Mexican food anywhere, offered by dozens of competing restaurants. The neighbors in the building were ambulance chasing lawyers upstairs, sports equipment and computer vendors on the ground floor, and a low budget movie studio in the basement. The neighborhood, although a blatant dump, was quite safe, because of the proximity of the court and supporting police. The local economy was cash based on the transactions on those without proper US documentation – robberies were nearly unknown. Oh, and did I say? - It was CHEAP!
 
One of our local characters was Russ, the local trash raider/recycler/hoarder guy who lived in the driver's seat of his 1964 Pontiac Bonneville. The car was filled up to the window line with trash except a hollowed out area which was the driver's seat and floor. This car was incredibly degraded, but no worse than the average car driven by other Van Nuys denizens. The cops tolerated him because he helped clean up the neighborhood. Besides, he was prone to loud incoherent babbling and probably too much hassle to mess with. Now, he would grab anything lying the alley. He was a skinny guy, so much so that I was impressed when I saw him pick up a huge drunken lady who was passed out next to a dumpster. When he was trying to gently place her in his trunk to recycle her, she awoke and took great umbrage at his rescue attempt, running for her orphaned bottle of Night Train Express Wine. Please pardon the nostalgia. The neighborhood was also a learning experience for me. For example, I never knew what a “fluffer” was until I toured the movie studio in the basement. What is even more of a riot is that they are considered part of the costume department!  But I digress.
 
Dave got a day job at this company who sealed together leak-proof plastic liners together that were 1/8' thick. They lined landfills, copper mine work areas, and small nations. This was to make the products or services offered at the sites environmentally and legally compliant. So, to seal the plastic together, they used RF power proper to megawatt international radio stations. The voltages on the power tubes were so high that you could literally pull arcs off the sealing machine that were 6 feet long. It was better than a 1950's science fiction movie set! The place smelled like the immediate aftermath of hundreds of simultaneous thunderstorms. Trouble was, all of the cold drinks in the building would heat up. Dave was fearless.
 
Meanwhile, back in Van Nuys we started working on this contraption we would eventually call a Frankenstein. The power supply was a collection of surplus power supplies on a rack panel that weighed just slightly less than a refrigerator with the added bonus of sharp edges that could rip huge gashes in your hands. The next thing we needed was a DSP engine to implement the John Lediaev derived filter. The circuit board was laid out by Dave – right after the earth cooled the boards were laid out on transparent plastic sheets with black tape of various widths for the traces. They also used “donuts” of various sizes and different holes specced with “C” holes, “B” holes, and of course “A” holes for the pads. There was a time when we cut the layout all of the way through about ¾ of the way to the top, cut out another huge section, and taped it back together with transparent tape. Try that with modern CAD systems!! In those days, they still sold blank boards that you could expose to light, soak in radioactive toxic waste looking 40W chemicals which left permanent stains on your trays and fingers, and drill all of the holes by hand. We did just that with the prototype Frankenstein DSP 2 layer boards!! We drilled our own holes and put jumpers through the boards to simulate plated through holes – the hardware apparently worked!! We had only three remaining problems – the first was that we had no one foolhardy enough to program the Texas Instruments 16 bit DSP processors in direct machine language. Neither could we afford the thousands of dollars to buy the TI proprietary software compilers and assemblers to do it. We were stumped.
 
Well, my dad used to say that when the student was ready – the teacher will appear. It turns out I had this Toshiba modified CD player local customer named Tom who worked at a think tank in Santa Monica. He had more graduate degrees than I had fingers and was the type who would try any mental exercise at least once. He was blind as a bat, walked around squinting, and smoked like a chimney. I gave him the data sheets and programmer's guide. A few weeks later – voila! We had a working implementation of the filter that we could look at on the scope.
 
The second remaining problem was I needed to convert the DSP output to analog – we needed to make another circuit board with the toxic waste chemicals. We did, it got stuffed with parts (multibit DACs - the only kind available then), and we were ready to listen to audio – except for the third problem. There were no digital outputs on any CD players back then. (This was still the early eighties). What I had to do was hack up the Toshiba Player with the bit, word, and data digital signals and graft them into the DSP board to make it all work. The contraption was complete!
 
Contraption it was – you needed a wheelbarrow to carry it around. It was a CD player hard wired to a DSP/converter box, both of which were in turn hard wired to the huge power supply. In a rare moment of genius, I installed connectors in the wire harnesses between all of the boxes – all of the connectors were actually different so that it was impossible to screw up plugging it together. The device became portable and shippable! The true Frankenstein was born!
 
So I hooked it up to the rest of the system, and invited all of the usual suspects by to listen. Mike was silent, very silent..........a faint nod of approval. Paul also said very little, no disgusting utterances. Dave, who was usually silent unless asked a question, responded with his usual “Weigh-ullllllllllllllll”.  Tom was mumbling something about fixed versus floating point math implementation in DSP processors. I did NOT hook up the turntable. It was time to build another unit and send it to John Lediaev.
 
A couple of weeks later John had the opportunity to listen to his brand new Frankenstein. He opined what eventually became the four dreaded words: “pretty good for digital”. At that moment I realized I needed to listen to my analog system again. He was right. Notwithstanding, I built probably 15 to 20 or so Frankensteins and sold them by word of mouth to my Toshiba CD Player customers. Dick Olsher at Stereophile even mentioned them. It was very meager income, in spite of the fact that the team had a lot of time invested in this thing. We'd endured a small office with a freak show in the basement in a dumpy neighborhood for years. Yet, I was frustrated – there was no way to mass produce them. They had to be hacked in to whatever CD player the user had. I was at an impasse – until - Sony and Phillips actually got together and announced the S/PDIF!! The Sony/Phillips Digital Interface. Within a few months, CD players from both companies appeared on the market with coaxial digital outputs! Excitedly, I added an S/PDIF interface to a Frankenstein. I now had the basis to build not only a prototype, but a sale-able product. The notion of a D/A converter that could be added to any digital audio device with S/PDIF connectivity was born in my mind! A new product category! Not that I was thinking about it a lot – only while I was awake.
 
However, I couldn't sell tacos to starving millionaires – I knew I needed a marketeer. So I called an old acquaintance who I knew could sell ice to eskimos, and even better than that, loved audio. I told him what I was doing and could we work together. He said that had just agreed to get involved with a company who was going to make CD players with tube analog. I explained that that was like putting makeup on a really ugly person, they remain ugly, just less so, but he was unswayed.
 
In those days, the audiophile scene was really emotionally polarized between analog and digital. Ana-philes and digi-philes were like Democrats and Republicans. The analog guys knew that their stuff really sounded better, but that digital was on the upswing. The digital guys knew time was on their side, and the digital sound could only improve. Kinda like Miley Cyrus and Merle Haggard at the same show at the same time.
 
So I called another audio/lover marketeer who was starting a tube audio electronics company is his garage. He took the audio as a religion approach with me, preaching that how could a former tube audio product maker like me descend into digital, after all that was why I was located in a s****y neighborhood. I took the high road and avoided telling him that I may be in a s****y neighborhood, but you're in a screw*n' garage.
 
I went down the list, but could not find a taker. I felt like the high school senior who couldn't get a prom date no matter what. I knew I had the best working digital product concept, but couldn't move it even with bran. What to do?
 
Stay tuned!