[atomicbob]

  Another approach in learning about what we hear is to read about Perceptual Audio Codec developments and patents. Many years ago I read some of the patents in the area, but sadly its been so long that I've forgotten the details. There was a lot of research also done by the phone company about what we hear.
 
I'm only putting this forward as a method of learning about accoustics, and I'm not advocating for Perceptual Audio Codec's (I listen to FLAC). But there is a lot of information about how we hear and how sound interacts from that research. 

That is a really good suggestion. May I recommend books and articles written by:
Harvey Fletcher, Speech and Hearing in Communications
James L. Flanagan, Speech Analysis, Synthesis and Perception
James D. Johnston, various IEEE and AES presentations and papers

 

[AudioBear]

Thanks all.  Much more to learn which is good.

 

[atomicbob]

   
I was referring to the Yggdrasil's THD measurement, 0.01169% which is 78dB or 13 bits right? I'll admit I don't even fully understand the measurement (how 13 bits is derived from it). A lot of people like to bring it up when talking about the Yggy because it seems to be one of the only marks against it (for those who are obsessed with the numbers).
 
Do you think the technical difficulties you had with the measurement is why the THD measured higher on the Yggy than the GMB, or is that just a trait of the GMB?
 

 
Personally it doesn't bother me, especially since so many (trustworthy) people still seem to gravitate towards the Yggy. Which is why I'm still holding out for a black one (to go with my Cavalli Liquid Carbon) soon. 

 
Thanks for all you do BTW. Obviously someone with your knowledge/tools is going to stay busy. 

 

The THD and THD+N measurement in the yggdrasil technical measurements post has been updated with a correct measurement today. 2015.12.12.

 

[Maconi]

 

   
I was referring to the Yggdrasil's THD measurement, 0.01169% which is 78dB or 13 bits right? I'll admit I don't even fully understand the measurement (how 13 bits is derived from it). A lot of people like to bring it up when talking about the Yggy because it seems to be one of the only marks against it (for those who are obsessed with the numbers).
 
Do you think the technical difficulties you had with the measurement is why the THD measured higher on the Yggy than the GMB, or is that just a trait of the GMB?
 

 
Personally it doesn't bother me, especially since so many (trustworthy) people still seem to gravitate towards the Yggy. Which is why I'm still holding out for a black one (to go with my Cavalli Liquid Carbon) soon. 

 
Thanks for all you do BTW. Obviously someone with your knowledge/tools is going to stay busy. 

 

The THD and THD+N measurement in the yggdrasil technical measurements post has been updated with a correct measurement today. 2015.12.12.

 
Nice. Thanks for everything you do. Now the naysayers don't have much ammo left and can see why the Yggy is so loved. 

 

[mikoss]

FWIW, I have yet to see another DAC with a measured output DR of 122dB. Anyone?

Edit: also listening to John Coltrane - A Love Supreme: the Complete Masters on Gumby. Check the percussion on disc 1, track 3. Unbelievably clear and expressive with Gumby. A knockout.

 

[Nalor]

  That is a really good suggestion. May I recommend books and articles written by:
Harvey Fletcher, Speech and Hearing in Communications
James L. Flanagan, Speech Analysis, Synthesis and Perception
James D. Johnston, various IEEE and AES presentations and papers

Thanks I've made a note of those articles to read them someday when I have more time. There is a lot though on my reading queue right now, so it will be a while.

 

[tonykaz]

Mr. Atomicbob,
 
I took your recommendation and watched the Audio Precision segment of RMAF 2015, wow, quite an eye-opener.
 
I also had a look at the other Seminars ( yawners ).   Novick was the Keynote of the entire bunch.
 
This Novick presentation pretty much scared me off trying DIY Amp building ( or DIY DAC building, for that matter ). 
 
I have a renewed appreciation for the detail work being done by Designers navigating the complex world of Electronic components and the levels of Testing Gear needed to properly evaluate work results. 
 
Jason Stodard just wrote a chapter on the development of the new Vali 2 amp which falls right in line with the careful work you report being involved with.  It seems the Project Sunrise 3 now has a Schiit 'fellow traveler' for us curious folks to play around and explore with.  
 
2015 is closing out as a great year of discovery for me:  Audiologist Testing, Multi-bit DACs, Direct Axis Equalization with little Tubes being the Grand Finale.  I can now evaluate transducers with confidence.   
 
You have proved to be a reliable source of information.  
 
Thank you,
 
Tony in Michigan

 

[atomicbob]

FWIW, I have yet to see another DAC with a measured output DR of 122dB. Anyone?

Edit: also listening to John Coltrane - A Love Supreme: the Complete Masters on Gumby. Check the percussion on disc 1, track 3. Unbelievably clear and expressive with Gumby. A knockout.

Excellent! I need to hear this. Guess what is on my wish list for the holidays.

 

[atomicbob]

@tonykaz - the vali 2 is intriguing. Hope to hear one of these. Have a Magni 2 and Asgard 2 in for evaluation. Hope to make measurements in near future. My ears tell me these are also high performance / price amps.

 

[tonykaz]

Mr. AB again,
 
Mr.mikoss is talking 122db of Dynamic Range, I think.  
 
Are there recorded musics out there with that kind of Dynamic Range?, I though our Vinyl had about 60db, at it's best.  
 
My personal listening environment starts well below 50db ambient, maybe in the 35db range.  How could I experience the full 122db range?, I'd be listening at the 150db peaks with my head exploding, wouldn't I?  
 
Is it a kind of "it'll do it but it'll kill you in the process" sort of bragging thing? 
 
Am I missing something here? 
 
Tony in Michigan

 

[Baldr]

Why not?  You get it for free with the DACs anyway, as long as you match it in the rest of the design (power supply, etc).
 
The real deal is the mega combo burrito filter together with the DACs

 

[tonykaz]

Mr.Baldr,
 
I understand the Gear delivers it but is there recorded music out there with this kind of Dynamic Range? 
 
I guess my question is about the Mastering Studios building-in that much Dynamic Range.
 
I was at the Detroit Symphony last weekend, they played Mahler2 which I'm told never exceeded 120db in the Audience area, it was thunderously loud, louder than anything I've ever heard.  I wonder if I ever owned transducers capable of that level.
 
By the way, I love your work.
 
Tony in Michigan 

 

[atomicbob]

 
Mr. AB again,
 
Mr.mikoss is talking 122db of Dynamic Range, I think.  
 
Are there recorded musics out there with that kind of Dynamic Range?, I though our Vinyl had about 60db, at it's best.  
 
My personal listening environment starts well below 50db ambient, maybe in the 35db range.  How could I experience the full 122db range?, I'd be listening at the 150db peaks with my head exploding, wouldn't I?  
 
Is it a kind of "it'll do it but it'll kill you in the process" sort of bragging thing? 
 
Am I missing something here? 
 
Tony in Michigan

Hi Tony,
 
I measured 122 dB for the yggdrasil dynamic range, to which mikoss refers. You can indeed use all of the range, but not in the way you are thinking. First, it is more than desirable to have a margin of signal to noise floor at the low end of the range. 20 dB margin is good, more is better. Think of it like the contrast ratio on displays of the faintest image vs. complete black. At the top end of the range we need headroom to accommodate peaks that come with crest factor, if the music hasn't been compressed and limited all to hell, loudness wars style. Assuming 10 dB for crest factor, we now have 122 - (20 + 10) = 92 dB for actual average SPL range. A quiet concert hall may achieve 40 dB SPL during a dramatic pause, with a cooperative and quiet audience. During a thunderous loud passage, an orchestra may achieve 120 dB, amplified groups 130 dB SPL. That is 80 to 90 dB of dynamic range.
 
yggdrasil is particularly good for well recorded classical music given a very black, noise free lower limit and plenty of headroom at the high end, when the playback system is capable and gain staged properly. Many headphones are easily capable of producing over 130 dB SPL at the ears.

 

[tonykaz]

Professor AB,
 
I'm flabbergasted, I've never read of nor heard an explanation like this.  Phew!  I expect other Audio Engineering folks already have this as a Given, it's news to me. 
 
The concept of Consumer Audio reproductions system having a latent capability of performing 92db is astonishing, loudspeaker Amp capabilities must be staggering considering typical efficiencies of 82db for the 'first' watt, wattage doubling for each additional 3db. will quickly take us well past the 1,000 Watt levels.
 
I guess I can now begin to understand the importance of your headphone Amplifier measurements and headphone efficiency ratings, we're getting close to maxing out our little Amps with headphones trying to accurately reproduce at these incredible levels.
 
You're pulling back the curtains on the technicalities of all things headphone & digital reproduction.  This last four weeks of your posts could be weaved together into a One Hour Seminar at RMAF, I'd be spellbound sitting in the Audience.   
 
This post from you begins to explain my personal experience with my phenomenal HD580s, I've never owned a Large Loudspeaker system as musically capable.  I'll ask my Cardiologist if I can risk venturing into the 24 bit world, Mahler 2 at Detroit Symphony last weekend was frightening for me, I felt like I was Over-dosing on drugs, it was hitting 120db in my seating area.  
 
I have to think about all this, I'll re-read your explanation a couple more times over the next two or three days.  This seems profound.
 
Thank you,
 
Tony in MIchigan
 
ps.  I think OPPO is the only headphone maker claiming musical abilities greater than 100db., I forget which model but there's only three. ( your statement of headphone abilities is Big News! ) 

 

[Nalor]

  Hi Tony,
 
I measured 122 dB for the yggdrasil dynamic range, to which mikoss refers. You can indeed use all of the range, but not in the way you are thinking. First, it is more than desirable to have a margin of signal to noise floor at the low end of the range. 20 dB margin is good, more is better. Think of it like the contrast ratio on displays of the faintest image vs. complete black. At the top end of the range we need headroom to accommodate peaks that come with crest factor, if the music hasn't been compressed and limited all to hell, loudness wars style. Assuming 10 dB for crest factor, we now have 122 - (20 + 10) = 92 dB for actual average SPL range. A quiet concert hall may achieve 40 dB SPL during a dramatic pause, with a cooperative and quiet audience. During a thunderous loud passage, an orchestra may achieve 120 dB, amplified groups 130 dB SPL. That is 80 to 90 dB of dynamic range.
 
yggdrasil is particularly good for well recorded classical music given a very black, noise free lower limit and plenty of headroom at the high end, when the playback system is capable and gain staged properly. Many headphones are easily capable of producing over 130 dB SPL at the ears.

And this is where you give the hearing warning. 130dB SPL at the ears is more than enough for permanent hearing loss. I'm always amazed by the dynamic range, and people forgetting that at the top end, if you use it, its going to hurt.