Schiit DACs (Bifrost and Gungnir down, one to go)? The information and anticipation thread.

Mar 6, 2012 at 1:27 PM Post #2,416 of 3,339

 
Quote:
 
Not trying to come across as pretentious, but I (like many others on here) would like some clarification.
 
"The digital audio chain begins when an analog audio signal is first sampled, and then (for pulse-code modulation, the usual form of digital audio) it is converted into binary signals—‘on/off’ pulses—which are stored as binary electronic, magnetic, or optical signals, rather than as continuous time, continuous level electronic or electromechanical signals."
source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_audio
 
 

 
The key is the wording "stored as binary electronic, magnetic, or optical signals...."  But when this information - stored optically as "pits" and "lands" on CDs, or as electromagnetic 1s and 0s in computer files - is transmitted via a cable, complete and instantaneous variation from one to zero or the reverse is physically impossible.  Thus the signal is not a perfect square wave, but has a rise and fall time - i.e., it is analog.  The receiver takes amplitudes above a "zero crossing" point as representing ones, and below that point as representing zeros.  Thus even small variations in the signal can alter "zero crossing" times and show up as jitter.  See for example page 3 of http://pdfserv.maxim-ic.com/arpdf/AppNotes/3hfan402.pdf - "Jitter is essentially variation in the zero crossing times of the data eye."
 
Mar 6, 2012 at 1:36 PM Post #2,417 of 3,339

 Quote:
[size=medium]Whoa!!!!!!![/size]
 
[size=medium]My sincere apologies![/size]
 



Hey, man, anyone from around the Three Rivers is OK with me.  (Pitt alum.)  Great town, which not enough people realize.
 
 
Mar 6, 2012 at 1:40 PM Post #2,418 of 3,339


Quote:
Err...digital does have copper wires with conventional RCA, BNC jacks and all: Coaxial S/PDIF is still the primary means of S/PDIF.   Somehow everyone starts thinking optical/Toslink whenever someone mentions the protocol. 
blink.gif
   The S/PDIF protocol is the same regardless of electrical or optical transmission mechanism.  It's just that optical cables are usually so poor until you get to glass....which is disappointingly fragile.


 
I thought we were discussing the optical/toslink here? Hence my comment about not having copper lines/electricity. I guess I goofed. Sorry.
 
Mar 6, 2012 at 1:58 PM Post #2,419 of 3,339
Quote:
The key is the wording "stored as binary electronic, magnetic, or optical signals...."  But when this information - stored optically as "pits" and "lands" on CDs, or as electromagnetic 1s and 0s in computer files - is transmitted via a cable, complete and instantaneous variation from one to zero or the reverse is physically impossible.  Thus the signal is not a perfect square wave, but has a rise and fall time - i.e., it is analog.  The receiver takes amplitudes above a "zero crossing" point as representing ones, and below that point as representing zeros.  Thus even small variations in the signal can alter "zero crossing" times and show up as jitter.  See for example page 3 of http://pdfserv.maxim-ic.com/arpdf/AppNotes/3hfan402.pdf - "Jitter is essentially variation in the zero crossing times of the data eye."


Ah, I see. That makes sense. Now that you mention it, the following example seems like a great visual for this transmission:
 

 
The above photo (source, again-- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_audio) is, supposedly, a 4-bit example, so I imagine a 16 or 24-bit stream will provide much smoother in transition.
 
Is there a standard amplitude value that receivers use as the zero crossing point? It seems like there should be a standard. Otherwise, resulting output would be all over the place, right?
 
edit-- I've read over the PDF you supplied, and it seems to be a bit over my head. Guess I don't have the base knowledge necessary to completely understand. Oh well.
beerchug.gif
thanks for taking the time to explain
 
Mar 6, 2012 at 2:05 PM Post #2,420 of 3,339

Quote:
Ah, I see. That makes sense. Now that you mention it, the following example seems like a great visual for this transmission:
 

 
The above photo (source, again-- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_audio) is, supposedly, a 4-bit example, so I imagine a 16 or 24-bit stream will provide much smoother in transition.
 
Is there a standard amplitude value that receivers use as the zero crossing point? It seems like there should be a standard. Otherwise, resulting output would be all over the place, right?
 
edit-- I've read over the PDF you supplied, and it seems to be a bit over my head. Guess I don't have the base knowledge necessary to completely understand. Oh well.
beerchug.gif
thanks for taking the time to explain

 
 
That's not the same thing he was talking about.
 

Here's a pretty picture. If you did 10101010.  Expected should be square.  Because of noise, etc, you hope you get something as nice as the actual.  It could be worse.
 
Edit: added picture.
 
Edit2:  Don't forget the clock.  It's important too.
 
Mar 6, 2012 at 3:13 PM Post #2,423 of 3,339
 
I wouldn't worry about it. It is complicate.
Basically, S/PDIF can be better than USB, but not in all cases. Better digital cables can matter, but only to a point.
I think the consensus is S/PDIF Coax > S/PDIF Optical > async USB > USB.
 
Mar 6, 2012 at 3:16 PM Post #2,424 of 3,339


Quote:
 
 
The key is the wording "stored as binary electronic, magnetic, or optical signals...."  But when this information - stored optically as "pits" and "lands" on CDs, or as electromagnetic 1s and 0s in computer files - is transmitted via a cable, complete and instantaneous variation from one to zero or the reverse is physically impossible.  Thus the signal is not a perfect square wave, but has a rise and fall time - i.e., it is analog.  The receiver takes amplitudes above a "zero crossing" point as representing ones, and below that point as representing zeros.  Thus even small variations in the signal can alter "zero crossing" times and show up as jitter.  See for example page 3 of http://pdfserv.maxim-ic.com/arpdf/AppNotes/3hfan402.pdf - "Jitter is essentially variation in the zero crossing times of the data eye."


Excellent basic verbal explanation!
 
And great pictures from the others.   I second the note of the clock.  And that's where USB tends to fall through the floor the worst...the host clock handling is brutal.  A perfect world would not have USB audio, and Pro Tools would not have DR compression as an available option...
wink.gif

 
I have great respect for the "measurements" crowd and I mostly quietly snicker at the cable upgrader & placebo crowd, however there are moments that the measurements crowd is just as bad with myth and superstition as the cables crowd.  Digital audio is one of them.  The age-old "it's just ones and zeros, it can't go wrong, cables, and source "quality" don't matter unlike analog" that is regurgitated is a painful over-simplification of digital audio.  The trouble with interference still exists though is greatly reduced, (or eliminated but replaced by other problems in the case of optical) and a whole host of timing and jitter problems that don't exist in analog get introduced.   The word of the day regarding digital is "robust".  The data contained in a digital signal is much more robust than an analog signal.  But data can still be damaged or out of order on the receiving side, and an out of order packet is just a dropped packet that the DAC must "guess" at the replacement for.
 
The troubles with coax are the same as the troubles with analog coax: Interference, shielding issues, etc produce that nasty looking image seen above.  The troubles with optical can be even worse.  On paper its a great protocol, but imagine what the light looks like after being transmitted through optically imperfect refractive polymer tubes, then reviewed from an optically imperfect lens on the receiver.  Plus whatever noise the LED diode may or may not generate on the analog reconstruction side.  The plastics used in this stuff may be "optical" but for the price of a toslink receiver and cable, it's not exactly the same stuff used on the Hubble
biggrin.gif

 
All of that leads to that broken image above which gives a great idea of what a problem jitter is (thanks, Pyramid!) To explain that further: Which part of that messed up plateau marks the receipt of a sample? If part of the plateau is above the threshold and part isn't, which part is the sample....or is it two samples sent too fast?   An imperfect clock will play with the wrong pacing (maybe too soon one one peak, too late on another peak, then too late again on the next which makes it sound normal, etc.  Considering it's happening 44,100 times a second (on redbook),  we can't hear the nanosecond hesitations or accelerations, but we can perceive something off about the sound, usually perceived as distortion or muddiness.  A good clock will read exactly the same portion of the peak every time.  But what if that portion of the plateau was the damaged part that dropped below threshold?  Dropped a one.  Alien interference (coax)? Added a one.  In either case, you just altered the sample by a bit, and not in the linear way that analog gets distorted by by a random change in the sample.  One bit won't turn James Taylor into Otis Taylor, but you get enough of these altered bytes and it affects the quality of the sound.   USB adds the mess of a sloppy host clock and, cable pending, the potential for out of order packets, so you receive one sample before or after another.  Thankfully they're numbered, so it won't start play in random order and sound like a bad acid trip at a Willie Nelson concert, but when the DAC sees a missing part of the sequence it just has to improvise.  And when it finally GETS that missing packet, it has to throw it away because the time for that one already passed.  Two errors for the price of one.   So I can see where the dislike for USB comes from.  But on a good implementation on a reliable cable, it works just fine. 
 
 
Mar 6, 2012 at 4:21 PM Post #2,425 of 3,339
I think its interesting how different mediums have a different flavor or signature if you will.
 
To start I picked up a Spider brand coax cable from Newegg for $23.
 
I'm curious to see how a silver cable will compare to my cable which is 100% copper.
 
Personally I don't know how s/pdif differs from textbook digital (ones and zeros). But I do find it interesting how someone on youtube just used a wire hanger as a coax cable and it seemingly worked fine.
 
I've always been a firm believer that analog audio cables make a difference, but where is the limit? anyone who spends multi thousand dollars for a Nordost cable for an almost inaudible difference is insane in my book.
 
Mar 6, 2012 at 5:10 PM Post #2,427 of 3,339
I have had a bit of a play over the past 6 months since getting the Bifrost and initially I liked the USB as my Mac could upsample via Puremusic to 24/192.  But over time with more thought and listening put in and some changes to a quality 75ohm coax cable and a Glass fibre optic cable I now tend to use the optical out of my Mac, non-upsampled, to the Bifrost.
 
I dont have coax out of my Mac and can only feed the Bifrost Coax from an Onkyo ND-S1 dock.  This then limits the max sample rate to 16/48 due to the ipod but I am very surprised that when comparing optical out of the dock to Coax out that the Coax sounds fuller in the bottom end and a little smoother in the highs.  The Optical is noticeably brighter sounding.
 
As other people have said  before, non of the implementations on the Bifrost are bad but when we are a group focussed on sound quality then Coax should have the greatest potential.
 
Mar 7, 2012 at 2:57 AM Post #2,428 of 3,339
Glad to received my Bifrost yesterday. My current setup is laptop (usb) -> Bifrost -> Lyr -> HD650. Initial impression, lack of mid and lack of bass. My Lyr already has more than 100+ hours of burn in. My older setup, laptop (usb) -> Fiio E17(DAC)+L7 -> Lyr -> HD650 sounds better. Will let Bifrost burn for another 50 or more hours and will hear how it sounds.
 
Mar 7, 2012 at 3:35 AM Post #2,429 of 3,339
Give it some time (brain burn in, not dac burn in). It will sneak up on you. Listen to the frost setup for a few days then go back to your Fiio setup and decide if you still prefer the Fiio. My guess is you will find the mids/bass less controlled and less detailed.
 
Mar 7, 2012 at 4:30 AM Post #2,430 of 3,339


Quote:
 
What are everyone's thoughts on USB vs Optical?


There are some good optical implementations and some bad ones.  The worst one I've heard had some fruit on it.  Could have been the 3.5mm adapter, the fixed 3.5mm cable or implementation, not sure.  Tried multiple cables on that piece of gear.  I've heard optical that sounded better and worse than USB so who knows.  I get better consistency w/ coax than optical so kinda gave up on it.
 
Compared to analog, the digital domain is a Cambodian minefield in the deep jungle laced with punji sticks and tree swinging aboriginals puffing curare laced blow darts at you.  Anyone thinking it's just a '1' and a '0' probably stays up at night just to make sure the sun rises in the morning.  Digital can cross that gauntlet but it's extremely complicated and it's hard to say if everyone will make it through okay.
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top