[judmarc]

Quote:

Remember, the signal is digital (on - off) not analog.
 

 

 
Uh-oh!  Misconception alert! 
 
Nope, there are not happy little 1s and 0s, nor Morse Code-like on-and-off flickerings making their way down your digital cable.  It is in fact an *analog* (waves with frequency and amplitude) signal that *represents* the digits, which in turn represent another analog signal - the music.

 

[judmarc]

Had heard Wilco on the radio before, but last night I listened to one of their albums at home for the first time (The Whole Love, 24/96 download).  Man, where have I been all this band's life?
 
It was so great - the band, the terrific sound - I thought I'd drop a line and say that after 4 months I am just enjoying the heck out of the Bifrost.
 
Thanks, Jason, Mike,and Rina.

 

[Uncle00Jesse]

wilco is probably the best "unknown" band out there right now. I've seen them live 3 times and they are incredible. The Whole Love's recording quality is unbelievable. There is nothing like the first 30 seconds of "I Might" out of a good pair of cans on a good system. Though, some of their earlier LPs do not have that kind of quality, "Sky Blue Sky" coming to mind - eventhough this is my favorite Wilco offering.
 
Oh, and if you want to feel like your actually at a Wilco concert, look no further than "Kicking Television - Live in Chicago". "Muzzle of Bees" gives me goosepimples.

 

[TWIFOSP]

I've had several days with the new bifrost and I have to say that USB sounds better to me.  The optical spdif connection in comparison is quieter and sounds like it has slightly more veil and muffle.  The USB is more open and clear.
 
Could my computer be influencing the optical out in a way that it is not through USB?  I would honestly expect them to sound the same, but schiit even says that USB isn't as good as the optical connection. 
 
What are everyone's thoughts on USB vs Optical?

 

[Defiant00]

I listen almost exclusively through USB but the couple times I tried optical I couldn't tell any difference.
 
If you find there is an obvious difference then I would personally suspect that your computer is doing something to the optical out. While I'm sure with very close listening there are probably some that can tell the two apart, if it's an obvious big difference then it sounds like there's something else going on.

 

[TWIFOSP]

It's not huge, but yes it is obvious.  I see that I can control the left and right balance through the sound properties still, so I suspect that my sound card is still trying to do some processing before it resamples and sends the signal out.  Any know how I can confirm this?
 
Or maybe the USB is playing at a higher sample rate?  I don't think this is the case, I don't really believe that I can hear that much difference in already high quality sample rates from lossless audio.
 
Quote:

I listen almost exclusively through USB but the couple times I tried optical I couldn't tell any difference.
 
If you find there is an obvious difference then I would personally suspect that your computer is doing something to the optical out. While I'm sure with very close listening there are probably some that can tell the two apart, if it's an obvious big difference then it sounds like there's something else going on.

 

 

[wkhanna]

[size=medium]Whoa!!!!!!![/size]
 
[size=medium]My sincere apologies![/size]
[size=medium]The absolute last thing I wish to do is spread bad information.[/size]
[size=medium]Thank you for the correction, judmarc.[/size]
[size=medium]I am a newbie to using optical.[/size]
[size=medium]I will now spend some time doing research on optical,[/size]
[size=medium]and try to keep my mouth shut in the future when I’m not qualified to make accurate comments.[/size]
Quote:

 
Uh-oh!  Misconception alert! 
 
Nope, there are not happy little 1s and 0s, nor Morse Code-like on-and-off flickerings making their way down your digital cable.  It is in fact an *analog* (waves with frequency and amplitude) signal that *represents* the digits, which in turn represent another analog signal - the music.

 

 

[IEMCrazy]

Quote:

It's not huge, but yes it is obvious.  I see that I can control the left and right balance through the sound properties still, so I suspect that my sound card is still trying to do some processing before it resamples and sends the signal out.  Any know how I can confirm this?
 
Or maybe the USB is playing at a higher sample rate?  I don't think this is the case, I don't really believe that I can hear that much difference in already high quality sample rates from lossless audio.
 


 

 
I think when Jason says that S/PDIF is better than USB, I think what he means is a GOOD S/PDIF implementation is better than the best USB implementation, at least as far as the Bifrost's USB and S/PDIF receivers are concerned.  The FAQ also mentions that S/PDIF implementations do vary as well.
 
Meaning that Bifrost's S/PDIF receiver(s) have higher capabilities than its USB receiver, but if your USB "transmitter" is superior to your S/PDIF "transmitter", USB will still be the better one.  But a good /SPDIF transmitter paired to Bifrost's S/PDIF receiver would, in his estimation, outperform the best that USB 2.0 Audio can offer.  In his opinion anyway.  It is also possible that your sound card is doing some mangling before converting to S/PDIF, or you're still using the OS-level mixer which is upsampling and doing all sorts of ugly things, whereas USB to Bifrost bypasses that since the Bifrost becomes the sound card.
 
Also, in most cases coax S/PDIF is considered better than optical/Toslink except in cases of high RF interference.  The combination of potential jitter from the analog-light conversion stage and the fact that most Toslink fiber is garbage material are the reason.  There are good glass cables and optical-plastiic cables out there that perform wonderfully....it's just not what most of us have lying around our parts bins...

   If you have a coax-out on your PC as well, you may want to give it a try to rule out poor cabling.

 

[IEMCrazy]

Quote:

 
Uh-oh!  Misconception alert! 
 
Nope, there are not happy little 1s and 0s, nor Morse Code-like on-and-off flickerings making their way down your digital cable.  It is in fact an *analog* (waves with frequency and amplitude) signal that *represents* the digits, which in turn represent another analog signal - the music.

Analog, yes, though it does take quite a bit of interference for the receiver to mistake a peak for "off" and a valley for "on."   Though given the materials used in most optical cables, it's more common than it should be

 
Jitter/timing on the other hand....that can be problematic.... But it's rarely as bad as USB's outright mis-delivered out-of-order packets...

 

[ROBSCIX]

Strange he would say that as the USB receiver on the Bifrost is said to be on of the best true USB 2.0 Asynchronous receivers.
As you said though, it depends alot on implementation.
 
You can use a soundcard for S/Pdif without a bunch of "mangling" you can use ASIO,KS or WASAPI based on your hardware.
Although there are many better S/Pdif sources out there then a soundcard.
 
On the subject of optical, some like optical for being immune to RFI/EMI but they seem to never consider the quality of the transmitters and receivers.
If they are low grade, you can have issues.

 

[jworl]

Quote:

 
Uh-oh!  Misconception alert! 
 
Nope, there are not happy little 1s and 0s, nor Morse Code-like on-and-off flickerings making their way down your digital cable.  It is in fact an *analog* (waves with frequency and amplitude) signal that *represents* the digits, which in turn represent another analog signal - the music.

 
Not trying to come across as pretentious, but I (like many others on here) would like some clarification.
 
"The digital audio chain begins when an analog audio signal is first sampled, and then (for pulse-code modulation, the usual form of digital audio) it is converted into binary signals—‘on/off’ pulses—which are stored as binary electronic, magnetic, or optical signals, rather than as continuous time, continuous level electronic or electromechanical signals."
source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_audio
 
While wikipedia may not be the most reliable source, the above article makes the most sense to me. I was always under the impression that PCM (pulse code modulation) is entirely digital as opposed to your analog claim. I don't see the difference between happy little 1s and 0s and on/off pulses. As I mentioned before, I'm not saying my current understanding is entirely correct-- just looking for clarification.
 
Jason (or anyone willing, really), if you're reading this and have time, we'd love an explanation.

....er.... or at least I would.
 

 
edit-- on a Bifrost related note, mine should arrive tomorrow, and I can't wait! Hopefully it will be on par with the Emotiva XDA-1 I was using if not better.

 

[Rebel975]

He may not have known that Spdif was being discussed, as what he says makes sense in other digital mediums (ones that have copper wires/electricity).

 

[Raptor34]

I use the 3 foot version with no problems.  It's a clearance issue with the xbox 360.  Read Grumpys explanation for full details.  

 

 

[IEMCrazy]

Quote:

Strange he would say that as the USB receiver on the Bifrost is said to be on of the best true USB 2.0 Asynchronous receivers.
As you said though, it depends alot on implementation.

In Jason's on words in the Bifrost FAQ regarding saying it's one of the best USB 2.0 implementations "It's like saying the meal was good considering the chef could only work with McDonald's Hamburgers" (rewriting that from memory, not cut & paste.)
 
Meaning, in his (and Mike's) opinion, having the best that USB 2.0 has to offer isn't saying much considering at its best, USB is still garbage compared to S/PDIF.   Note the emphasis on his opinion to avoid a flame war....there are plenty on these boards that disagree and feel a good USB setup, even on Bifrost is superior.
 
However when the guy who's selling it is adamant that the included options are still much superior to buying the $100 add-on, I have to give him credit for putting his money where his mouth is

  And knowing the flaws of the USB protocol at large....though I haven't ABX'ed the differences, and chose to follow his advice from the FAQ and not buy the USB option since I didn't need USB in my setup anyway, I can easily see the kinds of problems USB is capable of....most of them originate at the transmitter and there's not a thing the receiver can do about it.   USB is ironically more cable dependent than analog IMO.  It drops, and delivers out of order, crazy amounts of packets on a poor cable.  For data devices it's fine, it can just re-send the packet.  For real-time...good luck. Things do improve with proper cabling.  The part that's funny there is because of the "it's digital so it doesn't matter" mentality, USB is the last place people look toward good cabling, when in reality it's one of the most important places for it due to the nature of the protocol and it's poor fault tolerance.
 
Still, either side of the argument aside, I still think USB was an odd place to try to shove audio to begin with.   It's a head-scratcher of a protocol.  "We already have two complete standards of transmitting digital audio signals, designed from the ground up to transmit digital audio signals.   Let's replace it with a way to send digital audio over a data connection!"  If it weren't for the rise of the laptop, I'm convinced "USB Audio" is a word we'd never have heard for more than a year or two.  Really, what modern motherboard doesn't come with optical, coax, or both even without dedicated sound cards (not that motherboard audio is a good thing mind you, but you get the idea.)  
 

 

[IEMCrazy]

Quote:

He may not have known that Spdif was being discussed, as what he says makes sense in other digital mediums (ones that have copper wires/electricity).

Err...digital does have copper wires with conventional RCA, BNC jacks and all: Coaxial S/PDIF is still the primary means of S/PDIF.   Somehow everyone starts thinking optical/Toslink whenever someone mentions the protocol. 

   The S/PDIF protocol is the same regardless of electrical or optical transmission mechanism.  It's just that optical cables are usually so poor until you get to glass....which is disappointingly fragile.
 
My digital cable to my Bifrost right now is a Blue Jeans cable....it's actually a Belden digital video cable (1505F I believe?)... It's a custom job in two parts.  Two cables with an RCA right angle on each end, and a BNC connector with a coupler in the center.  It lets me reliably decouple the source from the DAC to move it around and stow it safely without worrying about weakening the connectors (BNC's bayonet is designed for frequent removal.)
 
Very much electrical over copper, thank you very much!

 
Optical/Toslink: it's not affected by RFI/EMI at all, which is the major point of the protocol (though as Rob pointed out above, the transmitter itself is) but photons are still analog, they're just not prone to distortion from interference.  They can be distorted by cable fiber deformities though.  Jworl's point is valid though.  It does take some heavy damage to the signal for it to mistake a peak for a valley, and it's actually easier for the jitter/timing/deformities of cable in optical to damage the signal than in copper coax unless you're running cable in a high interference environment like near/inside computer equipment, across power lines and/or transformers, other AV equipment (especially video processing),  etc.