[rds]

I would like to see a schematic of the Caliente (or at least the circuit board).
I do know that the M3 without power supply costs about $200 just in parts, and the design is excellent.
If you were to build a commercial equivalent (psu and case included) you could expect it be in the $1k range.
Remember also that if your source and headphones aren't up to the task you'll have a hard time distinguishing between amps (of a reasonable quality). It's the weakest link issue.

 

[scootermafia]

The pics were posted in a review thread.

Looks like it has 4 transistors providing the ampage. It's pretty solid.

I still know that if commercial builders built the M3, like people bigger than Rockhopper, that they'd charge a G for it. And its resulting perceived value would make people scorn the amps that you all say it competes with - Gilmore Lite, KICAS, when comparing them. I swear, some people on here really do adjust how impressed they are with an amp to how much that amp lightened their wallet. The more they've lost, the more they have to prove it is better than cheaper ones. The M3 could cost a hell of a lot more.

Does anyone really think this amp competes with other $375 amps? $375 doesn't get you much these days in the world of pumped up prices.

Just a mountain of cheap blue resistors and small signal transistors. It may cost $200 in parts to make an M3, but it probably costs $20 in parts to make some of its competition. Bonus points for the non alps, 10 cent pot.

Edit: Ouch, attack of the random crap parts on the KICAS too...even my ebay CMOY has the mini alps green pot. I guess an RK27 would barely fit in that sucker.
I respect Headamp for offering damned attractive enclosures, and very clever designs, but he could have spent more on the guts, and there's no way in hell that a Lite can swing the same currents that the 17A mosfets in the M3 can.

 

[LostOne.TR]

Quote:

Originally Posted by scootermafia /img/forum/go_quote.gif I respect Gilmore for making damned attractive enclosures, and very clever designs, but he could have spent more on the guts, and there's no way in hell that a Lite can swing the same currents that the 17A mosfets in the M3 can.

What's he got to do with the enclosures?

 

[lara veronin]

I dont know what he thinks he is arguing against, but you can also build a 2ch beta22 for 375 too. ymmv.

Ranting against parts cost is one thing, but I find it more productive to rant against bad design instead. I'd take a "20" dollar gilmore lite over some audiofool designed jalopy that uses name brand pricey parts inside.

I can already think of a 550 dollar amp that fits that description.

 

[amb]

Be careful... please don't go diss'ing a product or design and the people behind it without full knowledge. Kevin Gilmore designed the circuit for DIY (see here). It is commonly known in the DIY circles as the "dynalo". Headamp (Justin Wilson) used this design for his G-Lite, GS1 and GS-X products. These are very nice amps, and I have a lot of respect for Kevin and Justin. It is also not a fair comparison when you pitch a DIYFS-built amp against a commercial product. The latter has to cost more for obvious reasons.

 

[scootermafia]

Well, we all know that the design is good, and as far as "building good enclosures" i mean he has a good design that is produced for him. It's a nice product with a nice design. I just think you could afford to put in better parts for $400. For God's sake, it's like 50 cents more for a decent pot. Their profit margins are not that thin.

I never said the design is bad.

People always point out insanely good sounding, really good designs with slightly welfare parts inside...for instance the Heed Canamp is made of no name parts, the parts are solid quality but I mean it has a little known op amp in it, it just happens to work nicely the way it is.
And yeah, there's some fancy amps with fancy parts that sound crappy (I think I know the $550 one you speak of).
Lots of people put better capacitors into their good amp to make it sound even better. So...if you have a good amp with a good design, what's the harm with putting better parts in it? I guess because you can make an even higher profit, so long as people like the amp fine the way it is, but the potential may be lost.

People may think I'm just dissing stuff randomly but I am only pointing out improvements that should be obvious and things that are just plain unfair...like chintzy volume pots on an otherwise amazing amp.

 

[lara veronin]

Quote:

Originally Posted by scootermafia /img/forum/go_quote.gif T I still know that if commercial builders perceived value Just a mountain of cheap blue resistors and small signal transistors. I respect Gilmore for making damned attractive enclosures, and very clever designs, but he could have spent more on the guts, and there's no way in hell that a Lite can swing the same currents that the 17A mosfets in the M3 can.

DIY isn't about money. Money is what corrupts many designs. In audio, rarely do almost perfect designs sell. What makes money are things that are absurd when you think about it. Open designs should be compared with each other and commercial amps on the merits of the design and sound. To think about it, everything should first be scrutinized first for their design, then their sound, lastly the cost/parts cost ratio.

To me, I would rather have a well designed and great sounding amp no matter the parts and the parts/price ratio. Don't get too caught up on whether you are getting ripped off or not. Because when you buy an amp that you believe is worth it because you are paying for premium priced parts, you sometimes miss the point. The goal is to do the best with the least possible, not do the same job with the most "cool" parts. Unless you want the bling factor. Can you honestly say you can hear differences between premium resistors and the blue crap? What about capacitors? But wait if there are capacitors, even film in the signal path, then fail. If they are in the power supply, illinois capacitor and low esr nichicons don't really cost much.

For me, I can't tell the (sonic) difference between the panasonic "10 cent" pot you mention and a blue velvet. Ive used steppers, down to the rk97 and they all do their job at the ranges I need.

Explain to me what nice parts would be worth it in your mind for the kicas and the gilmore lite.

By the way what opamps are you using in your m3? is the the ad8610? They are pricy arnt they? Are they worth it to you? do you think they are better for this application than something like the ad843 or ad825?

Go through your m3 bom carefully and see what you are paying for. You might be surprised how much cheaper you can make it, and still have it sound better than the "canon" config.

just my measly 2 cents.

edit: blah most of its alreayd addressed above lol.

 

[scootermafia]

Read my M3 review, I'm using 627 in the ground and 637s left/right which is popular on here. The 8610s cost $8 each. Sadly the burr browns are $20 a pop.

The RK27 is a beefy pot that tracks well. The majority of premium (>$400 or so) amps tend to use them, and if they weren't a tactile and sound improvement then Alps would likely be out of business - somewhere along the line an amp designer decided they were good stuff and went from there.

Maybe I cannot for sure hear the difference when you switch a cheap resistor for a designer one. But when you change a lot of parts around going from the lowest end parts list, bottom of the barrel, cheapest on digikey or whatnot, to name brand stuff, it is going to change the overall sound. In some cases, with amps that need high end caps like Woos to sound their best, it's worth $300 to get a 5-10% sound improvement. Even if the caps aren't in the signal path, they are an important part.

If you could upgrade an amps parts at cost for $10, then charge $20 more that customers gladly pay, and associate your builds with top quality parts, netting you $10 per amp -- at least a nicer pot and dale resistors and perhaps caps that are better than panasonic -- subtly improving the sound, at least potentially...why wouldn't you? Better parts might just sound better over a long term vs. deteriorating and dying earlier like lesser parts might, who knows. I just despise cost cutting...you can charge me the $400 for my amp but if it only costs you $10 more to include nicer parts, just do it...I know that an M3's parts cost way less and I'm mostly paying for labor, but the parts are at least good. I never demanded an amp at parts cost, obviously, but if I'm paying a marked up price at least use good parts.

 

[lara veronin]

Quote:

Originally Posted by scootermafia /img/forum/go_quote.gif Read my M3 review, I'm using 627 in the ground and 637s left/right which is popular on here. The 8610s cost $8 each. Sadly the burr browns are $20 a pop.

There used to be a site where you could get the 627/37 for 12 bucks a pop. They said they were moving last feb, but disappeared

Try asking analog devices for free ad843 samples. You might like them as much or maybe more than the 637's

imo the 8610 + browndog for 12 bucks does not sound remotely as nice as the 825 which is like half the price, or the 843 (like 10 bucks) which is my fav for this amp.

 

[scootermafia]

I've heard good things about the 843s, I am pretty curious, but those 627s were a pain to insert/remove and i put flat hex machine screws into the front of the M3 for looks. I'm too lazy to try them out...maybe in another lifetime. I'm very satisfied with the 627/637 combo but yeah, the word is that the 843s are good and the next person that gets an M3 should try them first...save $30 at least over the excessively expensive 627s.

Edit: 4ch B22 for a preamp?!?!? That's one lucky amp you're feeding it with it. May I ask who built it? DIY or rockhopper, usually.

 

[lara veronin]

I build everything myself. It's funny because you'd be surprised how much my power amp costs and how nice it sounds. More money on the amp then that means less for the speakers

 

[TzeYang]

The Panasonic EVJCs are good stuffs. Slightly better than the RK097.

Also the blue resistors are most probably Newark Multicomp/Yageo resistors that are as good as the vishay dales. They're just "cheaper" and probably less "pimped" comparing to the vishay dales.

I use those resistors alot.

 

[imademymark]

Quote:

Originally Posted by scootermafia /img/forum/go_quote.gif Edit - I am not going to trash amps I have never heard before, but I have made my own guesses as to which amps are offering the most for the least amount of money, and I will confirm these guesses or else be disproven once I hear some more amps.

again, i think i should remind you what as to what you said some 10 pages ago, it seems in your enthusiasm about the m^3, you might have forgotten

 

[scootermafia]

But I didn't say it was bad. Just that it would be nice if amp manufacturers selling premium products would use the same grade of parts. That way, when you compare them, it's a fair comparison of design rather than begging the question of whether the parts factor in. You can't really know how much better the Lite's design is if the M3 is built with better parts, you can only guess.

I've read the technical papers on the Dynahi, I know how it works, and it's pretty clever. Gilmore is a smart guy. I am entitled to my beliefs, and that is that while I don't mind paying some retail markup since I likely can't build my own amp, I expect good parts. You wouldn't buy a BMW with leatherette if you could afford a BMW, because it wouldn't be nearly as good, even if others assure you it's "similar" or that you maybe couldn't tell the difference very obviously.

 

[imademymark]

i just think that unless you own one, or have substantial experience with one, then it really pays to keep your beliefs to yourself, the gilmore lite for example when made my headamp, uses upgraded capacitors from the original kevin gilmore design.