[grawk]

You can hear an upgraded version of the G-lite really easily. Justin sells it as the GS1, and sells an even more upgraded version as the GSX

 

[Gradofan2]

In general... while I'm very impressed with the construction of the M^3, compared to the Caliente, or the GLite - better components are more impressive - I'm more concerned with the "results" - what kind of sound is produced - and the reliability of the amp and the vendor.

The reviews / posts about the M^3 certainly are positive... but, so are the reviews / posts of the Caliente... and... the GLite for that matter. And... I am impressed with the review of "Sbulack"... since he has had both the Caliente and the M^3, which suggests the SQ of the Caliente is at least as good, or better, than the M^3 + S11 PSU, for $300 less. I think I'm more impressed with such a comparison. Too bad there aren't more comparisons available.

As far as the GLite / GS-1... of course... they're the "most beautiful" of the lot, by a huge margin. But... the reviews are pretty inconsistent regarding their sound quality (too cold, lean and analytical)... and... you can't get one (many, many months delivery time - if ever), except in the "after-market," and few of the GLite's are available with the DSP, and the GS-1 almost never. So... I'm really not considering those.

If I were to make a decision, solely, on the basis of the design / components - I would, no doubt, get an M^3 + S11 PSU... but... I wouldn't make a decision on that basis. All I really care about is... the SQ and the reliability (later edit - "and price").

 

[jinp6301]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gradofan2 /img/forum/go_quote.gif All I really care about is... the SQ and the reliability.

and price!

and thats what you should care about. Nothing else really matters

 

[Gradofan2]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jinp6301 /img/forum/go_quote.gif and price! and thats what you should care about. Nothing else really matters

Oh yes... of course... "you know me too well!"

 

[n_maher]

Quote:

Originally Posted by scootermafia /img/forum/go_quote.gif Does anyone really think this amp competes with other $375 amps? $375 doesn't get you much these days in the world of pumped up prices. http://www.headamp.com/home_amps/lit..._board_med.jpg Just a mountain of cheap blue resistors and small signal transistors. It may cost $200 in parts to make an M3, but it probably costs $20 in parts to make some of its competition. Bonus points for the non alps, 10 cent pot.

Are you trying to say that it costs $20 to build the Gilmore Lite? If so, are you insane? Do you have any idea what you're talking about?

Quote:

I respect Headamp for offering damned attractive enclosures, and very clever designs, but he could have spent more on the guts, and there's no way in hell that a Lite can swing the same currents that the 17A mosfets in the M3 can.

Get back to me when you've started and run a successful business building electronics, until then I kindly suggest you pipe down.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lara veronin /img/forum/go_quote.gif I dont know what he thinks he is arguing against, but you can also build a 2ch beta22 for 375 too. ymmv.

Uh, no, you can't. Even with the cheapest parts available there is no way you are going to finish that amp for $375. The parts for the sigma22 and two beta boards are going to eat up more than 3/4 of that budget and there's a heck of a long way to after just stuffing the boards. Could it be done for ~$500, MAYBE and even then you'd have to be getting really creative about it and it would certainly not be something that just anyone could do.

Quote:

Originally Posted by scootermafia /img/forum/go_quote.gif Well, we all know that the design is good, and as far as "building good enclosures" i mean he has a good design that is produced for him. It's a nice product with a nice design. I just think you could afford to put in better parts for $400. For God's sake, it's like 50 cents more for a decent pot. Their profit margins are not that thin.

See above, you're talking nonsense here. You are under the impression that anything that says ALPS on it is inherently better, think again.
Quote:

I never said the design is bad.

You came pretty friggen close with
Quote:

$375 doesn't get you much these days in the world of pumped up prices.

What exactly were to trying to say with that statement if not that you felt the price did not accurately reflect the quality of the design?

Quote:

People may think I'm just dissing stuff randomly but I am only pointing out improvements that should be obvious and things that are just plain unfair...like chintzy volume pots on an otherwise amazing amp.

You're not dissing stuff randomly, you're randomly proving you don't know what you're talking about.

Quote:

Originally Posted by scootermafia /img/forum/go_quote.gif at least a nicer pot and dale resistors and perhaps caps that are better than panasonic -- subtly improving the sound, at least potentially...why wouldn't you?

Perhaps because the parts you are railing against represent the best value for a given investment in an amp while maintaining a chosen price point. If Justin wanted the G-Lite to cost more I'm sure he could have.

I've built enough (probably 50+ amps now) to have a good handle on how much things cost and how long things take to build. Can you say the same? You seem to be caught in the trap of listening to people telling you that certain parts are bad because they aren't absurdly expensive, which is just stupid. Those panasonic caps you don't like, well, they happen to perform their specified task excellently. That "$.10" pot, well first off it costs 10x that much even when bought in quantities of 100 so you're just plain wrong there and two if you ignore the first 15 degrees of rotation (which is the whole reason for a gain switch) that pot tracks nearly as well as the 10x more expensive RK27. So, would you prefer your designer throw money at a problem they've already solved and consequently further "pump up" the price?

You know I pretty much hate threads that compare honest to goodness commercial products with DIY designs from a cost perspective. It is insane and a disservice to the community to do so. There is no valid cost comparison between a product made by Headamp/Ray/Headroom/Woo/Etc with respect to something made by someone like Rockhopper, MisterX (both of whom do outstanding work btw) or one of the even smaller DIYFP shops. And I also get pretty frustrated when people who clearly don't know what they are talking about with respect to parts costs start spouting numbers about building X amp for Y dollars and how it'll kill some commercial amp in the same price bracket. Again, the comparison is baseless.

 

[Pars]

Quote:

Originally Posted by n_maher /img/forum/go_quote.gif <snipped>

What he said. Add in that the commercial builders have to provide warranty and support, etc. which has a great effect on their costs. When I build an amp for myself, I can look at parts cost alone. Otherwise, forget it.

 

[scootermafia]

Everyone seems to think that I wouldn't buy a commercial product because it costs too much, and that I am trying to compare it to DIY, saying that it just isn't fair. That totally isn't it. What I am saying is at a commercial price point, spend a few extra dollars to include the best parts. If you can't spend an extra $10 to put in the best parts - to reassure customers that you care - why bother? It is better to not take chances even if amp building experts claim they can't tell the difference...I guarantee there are customers it matters to, and not just people you are calling noobs like me. I don't think that it's fair to compare the M3 and the Lite because who knows how the Lite would sound if you restuffed it with premium parts. Maybe it's not a big difference; we've already established it's a good compact amp design. I think amps should be built with a similar grade of parts so you can really know which design is the best.

 

[scootermafia]

Really, if you think I am being unfair, good for you...I've seen at least 5 GLite reviews saying that it sounds 'thin' and that they sold it, in summary. It makes me wonder if different parts were swapped in, whether the amp could reach its top potential. What is so wrong with my opinion? $400 would be fine for a Lite if they at least spent enough on parts to where there was no question that it was limited by parts and its design only would be in question, sound wise.

I give up. At the end of this, demanding premium parts for a premium price is just the same as demanding high end cabling - it's controversial and it's a bit of voodoo, and skeptics will always ask if you can "hear" the difference.

 

[Gradofan2]

How does the "bass boost" option of the M^3 affect its sound???

Does it... make the sound warmer, richer, more "tube-like,"... or...

... does it just make the bass boomier, muddier, more "hip-hopier?"

The former would be good... the later "very bad... very, very bad!"

 

[Pars]

Quote:

Originally Posted by scootermafia /img/forum/go_quote.gif Really, if you think I am being unfair, good for you...I've seen at least 5 GLite reviews saying that it sounds 'thin' and that they sold it, in summary. It makes me wonder if different parts were swapped in, whether the amp could reach its top potential. What is so wrong with my opinion? $400 would be fine for a Lite if they at least spent enough on parts to where there was no question that it was limited by parts and its design only would be in question, sound wise.

The "small signal" transistors that you refer to are 2SA1015/2SC1815 Toshiba Epitaxial BJTs; very linear and a very good choice for the application. The front end consists of differential dual JFETs (the discontinued Toshiba 2SJ109/2SK389 or their single equivalents); used in some of the most expensive and well thought of gear on the planet. These aren't exactly the kind of thing you can run down to Radioshack and pick up a grab bag of. The 1% metal film resistors are quite fine, as are the Panasonic caps (the FMs outperform many Blackgates for PSU duty for example). Since there aren't any caps in the signal path (it is DC coupled), nothing to upgrade there. I don't really see anything in the parts used tha is limiting the sound of this? The optional DPS provides an improvement also.

If you really wonder about it so much, buy a Dynalo board from dgardner (http://www.djgardner.com/headphone/gilmore/) and build it with any parts you want or think might improve it. Let us know what you find.

 

[manaox2]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gradofan2 /img/forum/go_quote.gif How does the "bass boost" option of the M^3 affect its sound??? Does it... make the sound warmer, richer, more "tube-like,"... or... ... does it just make the bass boomier, muddier, more "hip-hopier?" The former would be good... the later "very bad... very, very bad!"

Honestly, I think it does the latter more then the former. If you want to handle your own equalization digitally (free and much to the same effect), I would recommend going that route. The extra parts carrying the signal for the bass boost really isn't going to make things clearer.

 

[n_maher]

Quote:

Originally Posted by scootermafia /img/forum/go_quote.gif I give up. At the end of this, demanding premium parts for a premium price is just the same as demanding high end cabling - it's controversial and it's a bit of voodoo, and skeptics will always ask if you can "hear" the difference.

The basic disconnect that you seem to be failing to understand is that a) you're getting premium parts and b) not paying a premium price for the Gilmore Lite. Find me another, not built in China, sub-$400 amp with the same attention to detail throughout. I can only think of a couple.

And yes, I've heard a Gilmore Lite. It doesn't sound at all thin to my ears when fed by a good quality source. What it does do is present whatever is fed its way, so if you've got crap going in you're going to get crap out. That's hardly a fault of an amp in my book.

 

[scootermafia]

Yeah, lots of people feed an amp a bad source then cry until they pony up for an upgrade.

The bass boost would be interesting, I wouldn't mind another sexy knob on my amp to play with and if were able to be bypassed with the push of a button without degrading the sound, I'd be all for it. I guess AMB's site might have details on the circuit. My M3 is very plain, no gain switch, bass boost, extra jacks or other goodies, but it was a good deal.

So, enough about the Lite...it's not the same price bracket as the $650 M3/Sig11. There's another $750 amp out there with separate power supply that challenges the M3.

This, or M3?
I may complain a little about Headamp when it comes to picking one of those vs. an M3, but I'd gladly accept the GS-1's price over the pictured amp. Prove me wrong. The fun thing with the world of audio is that there's no limit to how much you can be ripped off, the Grado RA-1 being a fine example. It all comes down to whether you are satisfied with the product, I suppose, but some people are presented with the worst value first and seem to think they got an ok deal. Everyone eats a little markup but it's basically a tip to the designer...some just are earning bigger tips than others. Grado's tip has got to be way up there.

Musicdirect sells that amp for $999 including the power supply (which resembles a giant wall wart - not something you'd put on display, it really is a big wall wart). The maker of that amp said in an interview that he doesn't believe in 0.1%/1% resistors, that cheaper ones are just fine. The price on that is exorbitant. I'll take 3 Compasses + cables for them, thanks.

So where do you draw the line between what you paid for it and what's inside makes no sense to you? At a certain point, you have to know that the maker is ****ing you. It's like when Icarium cracked open his Singlepower SS and found sliced and diced wall warts inside. Seeing a crappy looking pot inside a $999 amp is the same thing. Maybe it sounds the same, but maybe they could have at least spent a few cents to give the customer parts with a longer lifespan and potentially higher sound quality. Maybe you'd make $30 less profit per amp, maybe the sound isn't hugely changed, but the amp might be more durable, and you can rope in noobs like me with a long list of fancy parts that are used. If parts and scale of the amp tell nothing whatsoever as to how the amp sounds (like the difference in scale between the Solo and the M3 inside is comparable to the M3 vs. a 3 channel Beta22), then we can never even guess at which amps might be nicer than others besides to read subjective impressions of the amp which are comparative and rely on what amps the people have already listened to.

This is why the majority of amp reviews on this site are probably worthless unless they're written by someone like Skylab or similar multi-thousand-posting-multi-amp-owning person that has heard everything and can remember how good each one was. I can say how awesome my M3 sounds but the Solo and Lite are 'awesome' to 99.999% of their customers too...they are good amps and we that have only sampled a few don't know all the competition.

Head-fi is depressing. There's always doubt as to how much is worth spending on gear, which cables are worth it/how much to spend on them. Someone on the board once said to order everything and send what you don't like back, and sadly while this would be costly at the outset it might be the only way to really know besides trusting the opinions of others, or guessing based on scale/intricacy of design and parts list as I tend to. People have been warned against both of the those 2 things - trust, and guessing. I guessed that amps might sound better with higher grade parts, but I got shouted down by amp building experts that claim they are sure.

A final note is the likely fact that good parts/cables give mental satisfaction/closure. People get a psychological boost when they remove weak links from their audio signal chain. It's impossible to scientifically tell (and ABXing is a whole nother can of crap) whether it improved things. It's mostly instinct determining the extent of the effect of black gating a Woo 6, adding the stepper to the Woo, adding the Sophia to the Woo. My brain tells me my system should sound good and indeed it does since I have left little out. The problem happens when some people are never satisfied and the quest turns into paranoia, like when Patrick82 went to all that trouble to try to reduce noise using all sorts of insane means.

So, this is why the Head-fi mantra of headphones, source, amp, then cable in that order is some of the best advice - changing the most obvious parts of your system is the most important thing to do - going from bad Chinese stock tubes to some nice old ones being a major step. Spending $400 on a source vs. using a cheap sound card is more important than black gating an amp, for instance.

 

[HeadphoneAddict]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gradofan2 /img/forum/go_quote.gif In general... while I'm very impressed with the construction of the M^3, compared to the Caliente, or the GLite - better components are more impressive - I'm more concerned with the "results" - what kind of sound is produced - and the reliability of the amp and the vendor. The reviews / posts about the M^3 certainly are positive... but, so are the reviews / posts of the Caliente... and... the GLite for that matter. And... I am impressed with the review of "Sbulack"... since he has had both the Caliente and the M^3, which suggests the SQ of the Caliente is at least as good, or better, than the M^3 + S11 PSU, for $300 less. I think I'm more impressed with such a comparison. Too bad there aren't more comparisons available. As far as the GLite / GS-1... of course... they're the "most beautiful" of the lot, by a huge margin. But... the reviews are pretty inconsistent regarding their sound quality (too cold, lean and analytical)... and... you can't get one (many, many months delivery time - if ever), except in the "after-market," and few of the GLite's are available with the DSP, and the GS-1 almost never. So... I'm really not considering those. If I were to make a decision, solely, on the basis of the design / components - I would, no doubt, get an M^3 + S11 PSU... but... I wouldn't make a decision on that basis. All I really care about is... the SQ and the reliability (later edit - "and price").

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gradofan2 /img/forum/go_quote.gif How does the "bass boost" option of the M^3 affect its sound??? Does it... make the sound warmer, richer, more "tube-like,"... or... ... does it just make the bass boomier, muddier, more "hip-hopier?" The former would be good... the later "very bad... very, very bad!"

Naamanf brought his M^3 over last summer with his W5000 for a mini-meet before my WA6 had the Pseudo Dual Power Supply mod or the Sophia Princess rectifier, and it beat the WA6 and the headphone out of the Aogee mini-DAC. (prompting me to ship the WA6 to Jack for an upgrade the next day).

The W5000 sounded like yuck on all my amps, with no bass and nasal mids, but the M^3 with bass contour adjusted sounded much better. It wasn't boomy or hip hoppy or muddy. He offered to loan it to me when he went back to Iraq and I declined only because I knew I wouldn't want to give it up when he wanted it back.

It also sounded pretty good with some AKG K701 at the CO meet last weekend, although I did prefer the balanced Beta 22 more. But it was not embarrassed by the better amps, just put in it's place. At this point I think my Single Power Square Wave XL and Maxed WA6 with PDPS and Sophia are better, but I would not be unhappy with the M^3.

 

[jinp6301]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gradofan2 /img/forum/go_quote.gif How does the "bass boost" option of the M^3 affect its sound??? Does it... make the sound warmer, richer, more "tube-like,"... or... ... does it just make the bass boomier, muddier, more "hip-hopier?" The former would be good... the later "very bad... very, very bad!"

I've been recommend to not have the bass boost since it degrades the sound. I wouldnt mind fiddling around with it but the m^3 has great bass and its fine with all of my phones.