[robm321]

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaloS /img/forum/go_quote.gif Well I don't want to be a hater, but when talking affordable systems (sub-$1000 per component), all of the above headphones have their own inferiorities. HD600 driven by a Raptor still has an annoying mid-bass hump, and is still relentlessly slow, hd650 just plain has too much bass to my ears, and while I've yet to hear k701 on a tube amp, but on someone else's SS system k701 had a plastic-like tonality to it (no it was not a bad system, it was just neutral so k701 was shown for what it is alone). With all of the above headphones it is purely matter of preference, and as stated, with Prolines the main issue is going to be with not so rounded treble, and not enough midrange for most folks. But at least it did not hurt my head with mid-bass... I honestly consider all of the above on the same level but different in their own ways. There are faults with all of those phones, and lets acknowledge them if we are going to talk as to what is superior here. Oh, and if we were to drop the Prolines, I would pick HD600 of all the above mentioned headphones because of its accurate tone color and less oppressive nature.

I agree with all the above. The criticisms you've stated of the above headphones are exactly as I feel.

I think it was the treble and pushed back midrange that gave a kind of synthetic feel to it. I always felt that they were overlayed with sharp high frequencies that gave them a strange unnatural sound to me.

I may have sold them too soon. I burned them in for quite awhile, but gave up and sold them.

 

[MaloS]

Quote:

Originally Posted by robm321 /img/forum/go_quote.gif I agree with all the above. The criticisms you've stated of the above headphones are exactly as I feel. I think it was the treble and pushed back midrange that gave a kind of synthetic feel to it. I always felt that they were overlayed with sharp high frequencies that gave them a strange unnatural sound to me. I may have sold them too soon. I burned them in for quite awhile, but gave up and sold them.

Please come to the Nor-Cal meet, maybe we can get some direct comparisons between all of those cans down to see where things stand. My Proline is fully burned in, and while I do not expect you to like it, I just feel you should give it a second chance to see where it stands. I had to give hd650 a second chance at certain point, you've no idea how much I hated it on the first tries.

 

[robm321]

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaloS /img/forum/go_quote.gif Please come to the Nor-Cal meet, maybe we can get some direct comparisons between all of those cans down to see where things stand. My Proline is fully burned in, and while I do not expect you to like it, I just feel you should give it a second chance to see where it stands. I had to give hd650 a second chance at certain point, you've no idea how much I hated it on the first tries.

I'm definitely going to try to be there if I can manage my way out of some current plans. Can't commit just yet. Maybe by tomorrow but would love to hear the ed. 9 and fully burned in 2500s too

 

[pataburd]

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaloS /img/forum/go_quote.gif . . . and while I've yet to hear k701 on a tube amp, but on someone else's SS system k701 had a plastic-like tonality to it (no it was not a bad system, it was just neutral so k701 was shown for what it is alone).

(a)
But that's the best way to hear the K701: on a decent tube (or hybrid) amp. NO PLASTIC-ality here! : )

(b)
And are you sure the K701 was [were] shown for what it is [they are] alone, or simply how it [they] happened to sound through the particular SS amp you conscripted for the audition? (Stas uses the singular convention for denoting headphones, while I use the plural.)

With your merciful indulgence (you may need some), I submit that if you are going to a/b headphones, it might be recommendable (at least as an alternative) to hear each in its own, respective, optimized "gear-and-cable train." That way, you don't unwittingly exacerbate the particular headphones' inherent (and what may be perceived according to your preset listening biases) sonic "shortcoming(s)" (i.e. by mating them with incompatable/asynergistic, associated gear).

For one, I'd be very hesitant to conclude, after hearing the K701 through a popularly-thought-of-as-neutral amp like a Gilmore, for example, that the K701's tonality was plastic-like, knowing how awful some cans--rather, how most cans--can sound over a Gilmore. : )

It's not--I posit--a clear case of one can vs. another, all other things being equal, as though headphones' performance were independent of the associated equipment to which they're critically connected. Synergy and interaction (i.e. with other gear: sources, amps, cables, etc.) are often just as vital as the headphones themselves under scrutiny.

That said, I need to check my future dismissal of one set of headphones I disliked under a certain set of conditions--my own psychological bent may also be added to the list of contributing factors--which favored another (headphone).

BUT, I still don't care for the DT880/2005, the HD650, or the Proline 2500, in that order (from most to least disfavored). 8P

Now is somebody gonna PLEASE lend me their Ed.9, or not??? I think an Ed.9 vs. RAL/Proline 750, all other things being equal, comparison might be warranted in this case (e.g., two closed designs by the same manufacturer employing identical drivers). Come on, Stas, you know you wanna do it!!!

 

[MaloS]

Well, Pataburd, I am not really trying to compare systems. Many many headphones can serve as a central point for a system built around them - I am mostly interested in seeing what the driver is to start with. I am willing to bet money on the fact that I can build a beautiful rig with forward mids and no sibilance (unless something is wrong with a recording) around a Proline 2500, but that does not mean that is what the headphone is, it is the property of a combination of components - which effectively gives us no insight about the headphone itself.

This is exactly what I am doing when I am mentioning K701. I can see what it can sound like with a fairly warm, lush tube amplifier...but that would be the sound of K701 + the amplifier. As to what the driver is - that is what I am inspecting when using a neutral amplifier. And for records - I was not using G-Lite, it was a GS-1 I believe, or another of the more powerful HeadAmp products (it was Asr's amp/k701).

And why do I choose an SS amplifier for this? They *in general* come with flatter FR measurements so it is safer for me to assume they are neutral. All neutral means as far as I am concerned, with ultra-low impedance solid-state amplifiers is that all the power the amplifier is delivering at any frequency goes to the headphone, so basically the amp is out of the picture as long as it is flat. Just some basics of electronics. You can say I should differentiate and that is how SS amp sounds with them, but I believe from an electric engineer's stand-point assuming lack of influence under stated condition is a very safe game.


Oh, and for Edition 9s I think you'll have to do some driving =] I believe quite a few people in your area have em? (area = few states around you xD)


Oh, and a total last edit: my listening bias is the sound of the real instrument, I evaluate almost everything primarily based on acoustic guitar sound because I played a whole lot of these. If that is not a fair bias, I do not know what is. I am making quite a few assumptions when I am doing this, but I inevitably have to.

 

[spinali]

It's always fascinating to read "works in progress" like this - keep up the good work. I vastly prefer the AKG sound, but it's still fun to read.

 

[pataburd]

Stas,

Part of the point I was trying to make is that it is difficult, to say the least, to completely remove the effects of associated gear from the differences you claim to hear, and which allegedly exist strictly between one can and another.

In short, I am saying that the headphones themselves are rarely, if ever, truly "independent factors" in an a/b comparison. Listeners' preferences alone, in-and-of themselves, and as manifest on almost every one of these types of threads, are enough to thwart every well-intentioned a/b comparison ever to grace this gracious website. : )

That said, I, too, still, and more vastly than perhaps even spinali, prefer the K701 to the Proline 2500. [8 P} <--RAL/Proline gah-gah smiley

PAB

 

[Andrew_WOT]

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaloS /img/forum/go_quote.gif I had to give hd650 a second chance at certain point, you've no idea how much I hated it on the first tries.

MaloS, in what setup did you hear HD650 to get such a negative impression of their bass?
From my memory, that's PL750 that had overwhelming, comparing to Zued HD650, bass on GS-1. Although their closed design might produce different bass quantity than open 2500 and I haven't heard the latter.

 

[MaloS]

Pretty much every single amp I heard on hd650 had too much bass for me, its not the issue of an amp. It is just that I am very sensitive to mid-bass in particular, so anything that has much of a boost there will bother me lots. That is one of the reasons I also like the Proline 2500 - it does not have a mid-bass boost. Oh, and I have not heard PL750 so I cannot say anything about it obviously.

 

[MaZa]

I also dont feel that my PL750 midbass is overdone. Its quite flat IME. Actually the subbass boost is enormous.

 

[fishski13]

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaloS /img/forum/go_quote.gif Pretty much every single amp I heard on hd650 had too much bass for me, its not the issue of an amp. It is just that I am very sensitive to mid-bass in particular, so anything that has much of a boost there will bother me lots. That is one of the reasons I also like the Proline 2500 - it does not have a mid-bass boost. Oh, and I have not heard PL750 so I cannot say anything about it obviously.

i too am very sensitive to mid-bass. as a former double bass player, my litmus test is the double bass. irregardless if it musically involving or not, if a resulting change in component cannot get the mid-bass right, it's outta here.

while the mid-bass on the PL 2500 is perfect, i have a little issue with the low bass at times - it seems to be recording dependant, but it can have some overhang. it doesn't screw with the timing, beacuse these cans respect the beat with wonderful attack and dynamics, but rather, it can become a bit too bassy for my tastes over time. i just received my Silver Dragon today...

PACE

 

[MaloS]

Quote:

Originally Posted by fishski13 /img/forum/go_quote.gif while the mid-bass on the PL 2500 is perfect, i have a little issue with the low bass at times - it seems to be recording dependant, but it can have some overhang. it doesn't screw with the timing, beacuse these cans respect the beat with

Thats my primary point about the Proline 2500 - just about everything that is ever wrong is the issue with the mixing - the mix is not designed for a neutral phone. If you try something of exceptional quality, there is no problem.

 

[MaloS]

Sorry about lack of updates, but I am quite literally waiting for the Edition 9 to burn in.

 

[slwiser]

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaloS /img/forum/go_quote.gif Sorry about lack of updates, but I am quite literally waiting for the Edition 9 to burn in.

...and trying to quantify the beautiful sound that you are hearing, right?

 

[fishski13]

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaloS /img/forum/go_quote.gif Thats my primary point about the Proline 2500 - just about everything that is ever wrong is the issue with the mixing - the mix is not designed for a neutral phone. If you try something of exceptional quality, there is no problem.

agreed. no wonder so many here have so many cans/amps to flavor/spice. i personally don't give a damn about "neutrality" - i just want to get closer to music/artists.

my problem with low bass is nit-picking. my reason for buying the Silver D is to see what, if anything, can be improved with these cans in my set-up and to my musical tastes.

PACE