[Tom W]

I first saw an article by Steve at Empirical Audio and then saw JK's thread at Tweak-Fi and figured for the $3 for the connector it was worth a try. If I purchase 2 attenuators I'll need a total of 4 RCA-BNC adapters..In which case I might just get a 5' BNC-BNC cable which will only require 2 RCA-BNC adapters. The attenuators are inexpensive and those that tried them seemed to see a change if not an improvement.
 
As far as the 2M cable....I just loosely coiled mine up once to take up the slack....a big no-no but hey I was just testing....it wasn't supposed to work.

 

[Epoch]

I wouldn't think that cost is a factor when it means using what I believe is a more expensive brand of capacitor, along with larger values which will typically cost more as well.  For the number of capacitors that get swapped out, that would be 42 of them.  I think that there is also an increase in capacitance value for most of capacitors that get replaced, but I am not sure of the current capacitance value of what is in the amplifier currently.
 
Quote:

Thanks!
 
mmm.... that sounds more like the penny counter has taken the better of him.
Using one brand all over the place makes for larger volumes and better deals.
If we brake it down to new values how many caps are we talking then?

 

[Black Stuart]

Tom,
why bother with adaptors, why not just buy some BNC chassis plugs?. Coiling up cables is generally speaking not a good idea. I've decided to try JKs first method and see if I can get the digital cable down to 30cms.
 
Epoch I presume your talking about the Nover caps - their values are easy to read. Over voltage does'nt matter but under voltage can, unless you can be sure that the under voltage will not interfere with the circuit.Changing capacitance values does matter. PSU caps can have a big effect on the final sound signature. It's worth noting that the W4S DAC 2 uses 88,000uf and the DAC19 uses 13,200uf. The bigger the mains Tx and the more capacity with PSU caps - the better the headroom will be and any piece of equipment will have both a more relaxed and where nec. a more muscular sound.
 
It might be worth asking Kingwa if 50V caps would be OK in the PSU section as then the smaller size would open up the range of caps to use there.
 
I wanted to use Philips LL PSU caps but Sod's Law dictates that though there there were (these caps are now NOS) two sizes of 3,300uF/63V only the larger size is still available and 30mm caps just will not fit in the space. I have used these in my Bada h/amp and in two different valve amps and they let an amp breathe and add just a touch of warmth which woud have been nice in the DAC 19. These Philips LL caps are used in some very expensive amps and with good reason.
 
Unless the Nover caps are playing a significant part in the sound I would'nt bother changing them. Those in the analogue sections surrounding the 1704 chips I intend to change. Again space stops me from trying  100uF/63V Silmic & Silmic 11. The original Silmic has great bass, better than BG standard caps. Those who have used Silmic 11 say that they are bass light compared to the original Silmic but really sweet and open in the top end - hence I would have liked to use a mix of the two types. I particularly dislike seeing those small Wimas in the analogue sections.
 
Identifying important signal path resistors in the analogue L/R channels might mean it worthwhile to use some naked Vishays.
 
I don't believe that Kingwa ever thought that there would be many that would want to mod his gear, otherwise he would have left a bit a of room for this to happen - all good DIY stuff does - a very good example is John Broskie and his superbly designed Aikido pre-amp but that's another story.

 

[Epoch]

I don't think that you understand what was done with the C-2 to turn it into the C-2.1 and that the change has nothing to do with the Nover capacitors that are used in the circuit.  The C-2 used Evox capacitors in a lot of locations, those are the white box capacitors that you see all over inside the unit.  The C-2.1 uses Wima capacitors instead of the Evox capacitors, and also has some of the capacitor values changed.  There is no change to the Nover capacitors at all, and I would bet that there is a larger difference to be had by replacing all of the small film caps with different capacitors and in some cases larger values as opposed to changing out the bulk capacitors with the same value but a different brand.

 

 

[Black Stuart]

Epoch,
my comments were about DAC 19 - always better to start upstream rather than downstream.
 
How much modding have you done with amps, I ask because you use the expression 'I bet'. The better the PSU caps and regs are specced the better the sound of any piece of equipment.
 
I've already said that you must be careful when using larger values because effectively you are changing the circuit. If Nover caps are so good why have I never seen any discussion of them on forums. I believe Audio-GD is using Solens in some quite expensive gear - they are fast but cold and grainy but they are cheap.
 
My Bada PH12 h/amp came loaded up with them. Supposedly it beat 20 other h/amps, I remember being completely underwhelmed with it. It also came with Wima snubber caps on the valve bases, these were not really nec but I tried ERSE caps instead and then  without - I preferred the slight difference with them in.
 
The coupling caps were Solen - changing these and any other Solens in the signal path made a big difference. halving the value of the the two coupling caps was another step up in peformance.
 
You say you bet there will be large difference with replacing the film caps - for other film caps or other types? - why not try it - are these film caps cheap - don't remove the PCB, track lifting may occurr - just destroy the existing film caps to just leave the legs and solder the new caps to these. this way you can experiment until you acheive a sound you really like - then remove the PCB and the original cap legs and solder in your final choice of caps.
 
You don't mention resistors - signal path resistors are very important. Many manufacturers use the smallest wattage they can get away with.Most types of resistors are susceptible to drifting values if they are exposed to heat, so resistors should be thought about as well.
 
Look at signal wiring - again most commercial products pay scant regard to wiring, the difference between 'wrapped' wire and using Teflon/FEP air dialectric may amaze you, as will using quality copper/silver/SPC inside said tubing - whichever floats your boat.
 
A lot of commercial gear tracks signal wiring around the chassis - because it looks neat? One thing I like about the DAC 19 is the very short runs of signal wire - always a good idea, so easy and cheap to try different types.
 
However unless Audio-GD supply real schematics with various voltage reading points, you won't know if the changes you are making will lead to instability in the amp/DAC. So first identify what the voltages are at given points and then you can check to see that there has been little variation or not
 
Don't get hung up on cap changes, many factors will influence the final sound - theory only has value when it comes from practice and never make more than one change at a time or you will lose your reference points.

 

[Epoch]

I will agree that a better PSU will lead to a better sounding amplifier.  I make unsure statements about changes to this amplifier because I have not made any changes to it yet.  It is impractical for me to be able to test and see if changing brand but not value of PSU capacitors will have a noticeable impact on sound.  The film caps that are to be changed have actual capacitance value changes, which will have an impact on how the circuit performs.  I make no statement as to the impact of any other modification, just that changing the actual value of many of the small film caps in the circuit as per the updated design by Kingwa should have some impact, that I believe to be more significant than changing the brand of capacitors but not the values elsewhere.  Since I lack multiple amplifiers and the requisite tools to compare multiple amplifiers at once, that is something that I will have to guess at as opposed to make statements about.

 

[notThinking]

In principle this is true. But the usual way to do this in production is to look at the overall use of components in all of the product range. So if the C2 need two 390nf caps and none of the other product use this value one can save a lot of money using the nearest value they stock for other products. Also if the design need a low pass filter it's cheaper to copy values from another circuit already in production than designing it with other components.

It would be nice to know if the different sound in C-2.1 (if there are any) mostly comes from value changes or type of caps. I can't really see Kingwa original designing the C-2 with bandwith limitation that now are gone with new values.
 
In most products in almost any electronic genre that being computers or audio rev 2 of the hardware design is nearly always done to better margins. To build creeper and faster. Usually not to fix bugs or better the product as customers are fooled to believe. Yes I understand we now have better quality caps and 15$ higher price and Kingwa is doing this a little different. It's the value changes I'm a little curious about.
 
Quote:

I wouldn't think that cost is a factor when it means using what I believe is a more expensive brand of capacitor, along with larger values which will typically cost more as well.  For the number of capacitors that get swapped out, that would be 42 of them.  I think that there is also an increase in capacitance value for most of capacitors that get replaced, but I am not sure of the current capacitance value of what is in the amplifier currently.
 
Quote:

Thanks!
 
mmm.... that sounds more like the penny counter has taken the better of him.
Using one brand all over the place makes for larger volumes and better deals.
If we brake it down to new values how many caps are we talking then?

 

 

[Black Stuart]

not Thinking,
another example that does'nt make sense is the DSP module.
 
First it breaks all the digital rules and does'nt use SMD components. The little Wimas cost pennies but so do the SOG chip caps.
 
I'm not sure whether I will keep the DAC 19 and seeing the trepidation that many Audio-GD buyers have about modding I don't want to jeopardise my chances of a quick sale. For those who want to keep it, it would be nice for some to try different caps in the analogue sections. This way there would be some actual knowledge about how these Nover caps sound. The Nover caps surrounding the 1704s can easily be changed for Nichicons and no they are not expensive - Nichicon FG, 100uF/63V @ $0.55c from Partsconnexion. It would be good to replace the Wimas here too.

 

[notThinking]

 
Quote:

not Thinking,
another example that does'nt make sense is the DSP module.
 
First it breaks all the digital rules and does'nt use SMD components. The little Wimas cost pennies but so do the SOG chip caps.
 
I'm not sure whether I will keep the DAC 19 and seeing the trepidation that many Audio-GD buyers have about modding I don't want to jeopardise my chances of a quick sale. For those who want to keep it, it would be nice for some to try different caps in the analogue sections. This way there would be some actual knowledge about how these Nover caps sound. The Nover caps surrounding the 1704s can easily be changed for Nichicons and no they are not expensive - Nichicon FG, 100uF/63V @ $0.55c from Partsconnexion. It would be good to replace the Wimas here too.

I'm not there at all. I still enjoy the sound as it is from the DAC-19 / C-2 combo. But Kingwa changed the C-2 so if I can better it for a few dollars I do so. But I'm not swapping 40+ caps just for the brand change. I'm been doing this for so many years and I'm not buying in to that any more. I like to know what the component are there fore, and why the selected value are chosen.
In the C-2 there are no blocking caps so we are mostly dealing with power stabilization / filter caps. My guess is that there are a very few gain stages though this design we actually can hear any difference.
 
DAC-19 are admittedly more complex but I haven't thought about modding that one yet. I would like to know why they discontinued it together with the Ref-5? I know they first did it couse theyre stock of 1704 was low. But reading they're price list now one can easily come to the conclution Kingwa favor the Wolfson chip over the 1704 when looking in the price range 500-700$

 

[Newk Yuler]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Black Stuart /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 
Identifying important signal path resistors in the analogue L/R channels might mean it worthwhile to use some naked Vishays.
 
I don't believe that Kingwa ever thought that there would be many that would want to mod his gear, otherwise he would have left a bit a of room for this to happen - all good DIY stuff does - a very good example is John Broskie and his superbly designed Aikido pre-amp but that's another story.

I certainly wouldn't mind having some important resistors identified for swapping with naked Texas Components or Vishays.  I've used the TC resistors and there is no doubt they make a worthwhile difference.  I'm not afraid to make mods you good gentlemen suggest for the C2/DAC19DSP.  If you start a new thread for modding or take it elsewhere please mention it here.

 

[Black Stuart]

Newk Yuler,
I'm surprised someone has'nt done that long ago. yes the naked Vishays are something else. I suggested to Seraphim on another forum that he try the Vishays and he did on his DNA Sonnet. Thing is though that they will expose any negatives upstream. On another forum where everyone was trying the pot shunt mod someone said that they were 'bright' - no their system upstream was bright.

 

[Pricklely Peete]

 
Quote:

Newk Yuler,
I'm surprised someone has'nt done that long ago. yes the naked Vishays are something else. I suggested to Seraphim on another forum that he try the Vishays and he did on his DNA Sonnet. Thing is though that they will expose any negatives upstream. On another forum where everyone was trying the pot shunt mod someone said that they were 'bright' - no their system upstream was bright.

Hi Stuart could you point out a few of the signal path resistors in the RE1 that would benefit from some judicious use of nude Vishays or TX types please ?....I definitely want to have a look at the DSP module and the analog acss stages,and the dac section (if it's relevant). I've done massive changes to my RE1/Phoenix using a mix of BG STD, Elna Cerafine, Nichicon KZ,KG and FG types, along with Mundorf M'Lytic, NOS PIO and Vishay Roderstein MKP 1837 film caps, the wiring/cabling changes you already know about (Mundorf silver/gold here, illumati coax). The cap swaps made a sizable difference especially with the mains filter caps (the Mundorf M'Lytic 4700uf 40DC are the same diameter as the stock 3300uf 63V NoVers) I find the NoVers to have a "British" style voicing with some treble roll off and a upper mid whitishness (if that's a word) in effect a polite well mannered presentation. They are a little less controlled in the bass region with less apparent quantity of bass (some roll off in the sub bass band) and not nearly as fast or sophisticated as the Mundorf M'Lytics. The Mundorf caps are a lot like the BG power tank caps (WK series) IMO, maybe even a little better overall, they are based on similar dielectric recipes with a twist Mundorf has developed. I really like the Mundorf caps for mains filtering/storage use. The stock RE1 capacitance total was in the 55K range whereas the the MAX mod upped that capacity to just under 88K uf. I still need to replace to the 2 solen MKP's underneath the DSP1 card (they are .1uf). I have some .1uf NOS PIO that may just fit in those 2 spots. I also swapped out the 4 Solens in the Phoenix PSU chassis with NOS PIO (same value K42 1.0uf and then bypassed with .033uf K40-Y9 series NOS PIO). This in conjunction with the complete rebuild of the Phoenix PSU really helped flesh out the Phoenix, extended it's freq range, gave it more thump and heft in the bass region while lifting some grain in the treble region (see previous paragraph for NoVer SQ impressions). I then bypassed all of the large Nichicon KG Gold Tune type II caps (bumped up in size from 3300uf to 6800uf) with .047uf 160V K42 NOS PIOs.
 
The amp chassis was rebuilt as well...likely you have followed what I have done in the Phoenix thread so forgive any repeat of info here.
 
Peete.

 

[yupoet]

One quick query, I am going to buy a C2 headamp. But suddenly I am thinking why don't I buy a NFB10ES or NFB10WM? They are balanced and with new technique. Considering the cost is similar DAC19dsp + C2 = NFB10ES + USB DI. My headphone is German Maestro GMP450pro. I also I have CIA400s (may be  upgraded to SA300SE soon). Anyone can give me suggestions on this?
 
 

 

 

[sayh]

 
Quote:

One quick query, I am going to buy a C2 headamp. But suddenly I am thinking why don't I buy a NFB10ES or NFB10WM? They are balanced and with new technique. Considering the cost is similar DAC19dsp + C2 = NFB10ES + USB DI. My headphone is German Maestro GMP450pro. I also I have CIA400s (may be  upgraded to SA300SE soon). Anyone can give me suggestions on this?
 
 

 

I guess you contracted upgradititis very seriously = ) Why dont you just save up for now and go full balanced setup at the highest end you could afford later. Chasing AGD products is a never ending cycle.   

 

[yupoet]

 
Good suggestion. I don't want to spend un-valuable since I need my penny on my camera system as well. I will stop my upgrade now and keep it for some while.
Kingwa is a crazy man who drives me nearly mad for the excitement of each time's upgrade.