flinkenick's 17 Flagship IEM Shootout Thread (and general high-end portable audio discussion)
Jan 4, 2018 at 5:00 AM Post #7,096 of 39,414
You can not modeling to do in an acrylic body what a Gregorz-built silicone body with silicone pipes ... it's quite simply a different sound signature.
Piotr also described that silicone CIEMs may display a little different sound in some cases like acrylic CIEMs.

I understand that there may be discrepancies in sound, but what I was saying is even Grzegorz himself has used silicone-filled acrylic shells for his demos. A user (I believe it was @dennistdk) posted an image of an SE 3-way universal demo. This means that Grzegorz would be open to making universal demos if they could fit the SE5U’s five bores. This theory is further supported by his wording when he replied to my e-mail asking why there weren’t any demos of the SE5U. He told me that it was “physically impossible,” meaning that it would be possible if he had a shell with a big-enough nozzle. Although he did state that it wouldn’t be an absolute representation of the custom unit, he didn’t use that as the main reason why he couldn’t make an SE5U demo. What I’m saying is, technically, it would be possible to make an SE5U demo; he just needs the shells to do it.

actually , i find reviewers that get free/discounted ciems to be more prone to compromising their neutrality

you don't wanna bite the hand that feeds you (the ciem)

se5 is the real deal , if you wanna search for reviews lacking neutrality you may wanna start from sites who get sponsored by ciem companies....

That can be true, but speaking from personal experience, I find it easier to properly evaluate review units without bias, than it is to evaluate IEMs and cables I’ve personally purchased. This is because you see them as “assignments” rather than things you own and subconsciously have to justify. Even now, being totally transparent, I should’ve given the Lime Ears Aether 4-4.5 stars on Head-Fi if I was being 100% honest to myself.

Personal belongings can have sentimental value and it’s more difficult to admit a product’s flaws to yourself when you’ve spent hours upon hours auditioning it, hundreds (if not thousands) of dollars purchasing it, and weeks and weeks waiting for it to be made. That’s why we have cases of New Toy Syndrome, where when the CIEM finally arrives at your doorstep, the sheer time and money you’ve already spent before even listening to it influences your first impressions. You’ll be surprised how much of those impressions end up on the final review.

Of course it’s easy to say that most reviewers are only in it to get free stuff, and their work becomes compromised in the process. But, you’ll be surprised to find how physically-taxing reviewing can be. I personally don’t even have the time to enjoy review units after I’m done writing about them, because I have to instantly begin writing the next assignment. I can’t speak for every reviewer out there, but I never adopt the don’t-bite-the-hand-that-feeds-you mentality, because I want the same thing out of manufacturers as everyone else: For them to constantly improve. I have no other dog in this race other than providing information to those who need it, and the furtherment of the industry. Everything else is just fluff.
 
Jan 4, 2018 at 6:36 AM Post #7,097 of 39,414
Unfortunately, Grzegorz has refused to make demos for the SE5U (despite companies like EE successfully manufacturing 5-bore acrylic shells, and SE making silicone-filled acrylic demos in the past), and he also refuses to send out review units/discounts. That means the only way to review the SE5U is to buy it at full price, possibly causing confirmation bias and compromising full neutrality. I’m not saying all reviews of the SE5U are then automatically invalidated because of this small possiblity, but it does leave you dangerously open to criticism.
They are quite a few steps to make a purchase as well or I would have already done that...I am sure it is a sweet sounding IEM based off of the few opinions that are out there. I will say the reviewers that have reviewed it, if they paid full price, should have been very critical of it's sound, even though it is one of the most fairly priced. Just not enough opinion in the wild, while what is out there is mostly very positive.
 
Jan 4, 2018 at 6:45 AM Post #7,098 of 39,414
I understand that there may be discrepancies in sound, but what I was saying is even Grzegorz himself has used silicone-filled acrylic shells for his demos. A user (I believe it was @dennistdk) posted an image of an SE 3-way universal demo. This means that Grzegorz would be open to making universal demos if they could fit the SE5U’s five bores. This theory is further supported by his wording when he replied to my e-mail asking why there weren’t any demos of the SE5U. He told me that it was “physically impossible,” meaning that it would be possible if he had a shell with a big-enough nozzle. Although he did state that it wouldn’t be an absolute representation of the custom unit, he didn’t use that as the main reason why he couldn’t make an SE5U demo. What I’m saying is, technically, it would be possible to make an SE5U demo; he just needs the shells to do it.



That can be true, but speaking from personal experience, I find it easier to properly evaluate review units without bias, than it is to evaluate IEMs and cables I’ve personally purchased. This is because you see them as “assignments” rather than things you own and subconsciously have to justify. Even now, being totally transparent, I should’ve given the Lime Ears Aether 4-4.5 stars on Head-Fi if I was being 100% honest to myself.

Personal belongings can have sentimental value and it’s more difficult to admit a product’s flaws to yourself when you’ve spent hours upon hours auditioning it, hundreds (if not thousands) of dollars purchasing it, and weeks and weeks waiting for it to be made. That’s why we have cases of New Toy Syndrome, where when the CIEM finally arrives at your doorstep, the sheer time and money you’ve already spent before even listening to it influences your first impressions. You’ll be surprised how much of those impressions end up on the final review.

Of course it’s easy to say that most reviewers are only in it to get free stuff, and their work becomes compromised in the process. But, you’ll be surprised to find how physically-taxing reviewing can be. I personally don’t even have the time to enjoy review units after I’m done writing about them, because I have to instantly begin writing the next assignment. I can’t speak for every reviewer out there, but I never adopt the don’t-bite-the-hand-that-feeds-you mentality, because I want the same thing out of manufacturers as everyone else: For them to constantly improve. I have no other dog in this race other than providing information to those who need it, and the furtherment of the industry. Everything else is just fluff.
I agree on reviews being taxing and taking some of the pleasure away. This is why I do only succinct reviews, straight to the point and less professional and detailed than you guys, and only once on a blue moon. I prefer to chill and listen to music.

This being said, if you are like me and want try everything, you kinda need to do some reviews, otherwise you have to buy everything...
 
Jan 4, 2018 at 6:51 AM Post #7,099 of 39,414
I agree on reviews being taxing and taking some of the pleasure away. This is why I do only succinct reviews, straight to the point and less professional and detailed than you guys, and only once on a blue moon. I prefer to chill and listen to music.

This being said, if you are like me and want try everything, you kinda need to do some reviews, otherwise you have to buy everything...
I hear ya Mim that is the reason I lag sometimes on writing because critical listening is so different from casual, enjoying the music listening.
 
Jan 4, 2018 at 8:13 AM Post #7,100 of 39,414
Some very valid points raised by @Deezel177 , @Mimouille and @subguy812 (as always).

While I treat reviewing as a hobby (and when I get the chance to review samples or touring items, a privilege), there is no denying that it can take some of the fun out of just listening to music. I love most of the songs on my main review playlist, but that doesn't mean I am always in the mood to hear them, or want to hear the same section 4 or 5 times in the same night. Sometimes I just want to switch my brain off and drift into the music instead of write, which is why some reviews can take forever. (It doesn't help suffering from verbosity - my last three reviews habe all clocked in at somewhere between 8000 and 10000 words apiece)

As a rebuttal of sorts to Deezel's point, I actually tend to find myself being harsher on gear I have purchased with my own money than on things that I have been sent for free or on loan. I find myself getting more concerned with not over-hyping something, or maybe with internally justifying my purchase, so I can find it more difficult to justify the good points. That isn't to say I go easy on any free gear I get sent, which isn't much, to be fair (if anyone out there wants to send me on some more samples, feel free! :wink: ) - I know what sort of signatures I like and I don't actively badger manufacturers for gear, so odds are if something has been sent my way and I've agreed to review it then it will be something I already suspect I'll like, but I'm never worried about posting something negative. I'd much rather get blacklisted but highlight something I think could be improved so there get it better in future rather than just pay lip service to a review when I don't enjoy something.

I'm still amazed by how many in depth reviews @flinkenick managed to post in such a short timeframe - it's a truly impressive effort, and no wonder he wants to take a back seat for a while! :wink:

Right, back to that 8000 word monster I'm trying to finish on the EE Athena...
 
Jan 4, 2018 at 9:03 AM Post #7,101 of 39,414
Some very valid points raised by @Deezel177 , @Mimouille and @subguy812 (as always).

While I treat reviewing as a hobby (and when I get the chance to review samples or touring items, a privilege), there is no denying that it can take some of the fun out of just listening to music. I love most of the songs on my main review playlist, but that doesn't mean I am always in the mood to hear them, or want to hear the same section 4 or 5 times in the same night. Sometimes I just want to switch my brain off and drift into the music instead of write, which is why some reviews can take forever. (It doesn't help suffering from verbosity - my last three reviews habe all clocked in at somewhere between 8000 and 10000 words apiece)

As a rebuttal of sorts to Deezel's point, I actually tend to find myself being harsher on gear I have purchased with my own money than on things that I have been sent for free or on loan. I find myself getting more concerned with not over-hyping something, or maybe with internally justifying my purchase, so I can find it more difficult to justify the good points. That isn't to say I go easy on any free gear I get sent, which isn't much, to be fair (if anyone out there wants to send me on some more samples, feel free! :wink: ) - I know what sort of signatures I like and I don't actively badger manufacturers for gear, so odds are if something has been sent my way and I've agreed to review it then it will be something I already suspect I'll like, but I'm never worried about posting something negative. I'd much rather get blacklisted but highlight something I think could be improved so there get it better in future rather than just pay lip service to a review when I don't enjoy something.

I'm still amazed by how many in depth reviews @flinkenick managed to post in such a short timeframe - it's a truly impressive effort, and no wonder he wants to take a back seat for a while! :wink:
.
Very good post...As you have seen in past posts I have posted, I always said when you pay for gear and spend your hard earned money it is human nature to be more critical. Look at my profile, I have paid for the vast majority of my gear, compared to reduced price for review or review samples. I am not saying anything negative about anyone's reviews or alluding to anyone being biased. It is why I have alluded to the fact that if the reader's only follow one or two reviewers and are taking those reviewers opinion as gospel, which is what a review is(one person's opinion, nothing more), the reader/potential buyer is short changing themselves on research. I review because I enjoy doing it, from time to time and I want to help someone wishing to make a purchase choice. I would never want anyone to make a purchase solely on what I write, I don't think that is good judgement. There is responsibility in reviewing and I have noticed a trend as of late too many trying to receive free gear and not reviewing for the right reasons. Sorry for the mini rant, now back to your regularly scheduled program.
 
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Jan 4, 2018 at 10:29 AM Post #7,102 of 39,414
Some very valid points raised by @Deezel177 , @Mimouille and @subguy812 (as always).

While I treat reviewing as a hobby (and when I get the chance to review samples or touring items, a privilege), there is no denying that it can take some of the fun out of just listening to music. I love most of the songs on my main review playlist, but that doesn't mean I am always in the mood to hear them, or want to hear the same section 4 or 5 times in the same night. Sometimes I just want to switch my brain off and drift into the music instead of write, which is why some reviews can take forever. (It doesn't help suffering from verbosity - my last three reviews habe all clocked in at somewhere between 8000 and 10000 words apiece)

As a rebuttal of sorts to Deezel's point, I actually tend to find myself being harsher on gear I have purchased with my own money than on things that I have been sent for free or on loan. I find myself getting more concerned with not over-hyping something, or maybe with internally justifying my purchase, so I can find it more difficult to justify the good points. That isn't to say I go easy on any free gear I get sent, which isn't much, to be fair (if anyone out there wants to send me on some more samples, feel free! :wink: ) - I know what sort of signatures I like and I don't actively badger manufacturers for gear, so odds are if something has been sent my way and I've agreed to review it then it will be something I already suspect I'll like, but I'm never worried about posting something negative. I'd much rather get blacklisted but highlight something I think could be improved so there get it better in future rather than just pay lip service to a review when I don't enjoy something.

I'm still amazed by how many in depth reviews @flinkenick managed to post in such a short timeframe - it's a truly impressive effort, and no wonder he wants to take a back seat for a while! :wink:

Right, back to that 8000 word monster I'm trying to finish on the EE Athena...

Very good points, man. Interestingly, I find myself on the opposite side of the spectrum; I’m more concerned about over-hyping review units because it essentially invites people to comment stuff like, “You’re only saying that ‘cus you got it for free!” But, that only goes to show how differently we all see things like this. For example, I’m more-or-less the only guy here who dislikes the fact that every single rave review of the SE5U are from full-fledged owners of the CIEM. I guess my point-of-view on paid-vs-unpaid review units explains this stance.

Like you, I too tend to gravitate towards reviewing sound signatures I generally listen to (and therefore, comprehend) partly because I don’t want my personal preferences to influence my reviews. With that said, though, I love reviewing different signatures - and I reward signatures I don’t enjoy if they’re done well - because it reminds me how diverse the industry is. That’s one of the main reasons why I decided to begin reviewing. As much as I love spreading information and giving feedback to manufacturers, exploration is a thrill of its own. :wink:

Very good post...As you have seen in past posts I have posted, I always said when you pay for gear and spend your hard earned money it is human nature to be more critical. Look at my profile, I have paid for the vast majority of my gear, compared to reduced price for review or review samples. I am not saying anything negative about anyone's reviews or alluding to anyone being biased. It is why I have alluded to the fact that if the reader's only follow one or two reviewers and are taking those reviewers opinion as gospel, which is what a review is(one person's opinion, nothing more), the reader/potential buyer is short changing themselves on research. I review because I enjoy doing it, from time to time and I want to help someone wishing to make a purchase choice. I would never want anyone to make a purchase solely on what I write, I don't think that is good judgement. There is responsibility in reviewing and I have noticed a trend as of late too many trying to receive free gear and not reviewing for the right reasons. Sorry for the mini rant, now back to your regularly scheduled program.

Although, again, I find myself more critical of free/discounted units than of personal units, I very much agree with the latter portion of this post. As a reviewer, it is paramount to set aside your personal preferences and remind yourself that literally anyone could be reading your review, and that what you write could be the deciding factor between someone spending thousands of dollars with joy or remorse. But, it is also important as a reader to remember that you always have the final say. Reviews should be used as a guide to find things you like, and not as gospel.
 
Jan 4, 2018 at 10:48 AM Post #7,103 of 39,414
Very good points, man. Interestingly, I find myself on the opposite side of the spectrum; I’m more concerned about over-hyping review units because it essentially invites people to comment stuff like, “You’re only saying that ‘cus you got it for free!” But, that only goes to show how differently we all see things like this. For example, I’m more-or-less the only guy here who dislikes the fact that every single rave review of the SE5U are from full-fledged owners of the CIEM. I guess my point-of-view on paid-vs-unpaid review units explains this stance.

Like you, I too tend to gravitate towards reviewing sound signatures I generally listen to (and therefore, comprehend) partly because I don’t want my personal preferences to influence my reviews. With that said, though, I love reviewing different signatures - and I reward signatures I don’t enjoy if they’re done well - because it reminds me how diverse the industry is. That’s one of the main reasons why I decided to begin reviewing. As much as I love spreading information and giving feedback to manufacturers, exploration is a thrill of its own. :wink:



Although, again, I find myself more critical of free/discounted units than of personal units, I very much agree with the latter portion of this post. As a reviewer, it is paramount to set aside your personal preferences and remind yourself that literally anyone could be reading your review, and that what you write could be the deciding factor between someone spending thousands of dollars with joy or remorse. But, it is also important as a reader to remember that you always have the final say. Reviews should be used as a guide to find things you like, and not as gospel.

I'm with Danial on this one. I actually feel freer with my criticisms when they are given to me free of charge. Whereas when I buy something myself, I struggle with that need to justify the purchase. It can be a hurdle to overcome at times.
 
Jan 4, 2018 at 2:24 PM Post #7,104 of 39,414
Keeping this vaguely on topic, finally managed to finish that damn Athena review. It's a beast, but for fans of the EE house sound (or their house sound as it it right now, anyway) these are definitely an IEM that deserves to be talked about more than it is. Very enjoyable!

https://audioprimate.blog/2018/01/04/empire-ears-athena-the-goddess-of-olympus/


**EDIT** By "on-topic", I meant "somewhere people like to put reviews of $1k+ IEMs on Head-Fi these days" :wink:
 
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Jan 4, 2018 at 6:44 PM Post #7,105 of 39,414
Keeping this vaguely on topic, finally managed to finish that damn Athena review. It's a beast, but for fans of the EE house sound (or their house sound as it it right now, anyway) these are definitely an IEM that deserves to be talked about more than it is. Very enjoyable!

https://audioprimate.blog/2018/01/04/empire-ears-athena-the-goddess-of-olympus/


**EDIT** By "on-topic", I meant "somewhere people like to put reviews of $1k+ IEMs on Head-Fi these days" :wink:

Your post inspired me this (humble) reflexion over in the EE thread but I wanted to share here as well:

I think for many brands with large product ranges, like EE or Noble some models get forgotten as people don't see the point of them. Often people will think, if I splurge for third most expensive in the line up (Athena), I might as well go to the top, which is too bad, because some people may enjoy Athena more than Zeus.

I think the is fault is :
  • Partly on us consumer who tend to associate quality with driver count and / or price in a lineup
  • Partly in the brands who just show the models in order of driver count and / or price order
I think models should be shown in a matrix, one axis being the technical performance / price level (entry / advanced / TOTL), and the other axis being the target customer / sound (warm / fun, neutral, analytical, etc.).

Therefore there would be room for several iems at the same level (already the case with Noble Encore / Katana). This is one area where Noble was smart. Also on the idea of not divulging the number of drivers in some iems.

Finally I think most brands should maybe reduce the lineup a bit, because maybe some iems are just filling space and not so exceptional?
 
Jan 4, 2018 at 6:57 PM Post #7,106 of 39,414
Your post inspired me this (humble) reflexion over in the EE thread but I wanted to share here as well:

I think for many brands with large product ranges, like EE or Noble some models get forgotten as people don't see the point of them. Often people will think, if I splurge for third most expensive in the line up (Athena), I might as well go to the top, which is too bad, because some people may enjoy Athena more than Zeus.

I think the is fault is :
  • Partly on us consumer who tend to associate quality with driver count and / or price in a lineup
  • Partly in the brands who just show the models in order of driver count and / or price order
I think models should be shown in a matrix, one axis being the technical performance / price level (entry / advanced / TOTL), and the other axis being the target customer / sound (warm / fun, neutral, analytical, etc.).

Therefore there would be room for several iems at the same level (already the case with Noble Encore / Katana). This is one area where Noble was smart. Also on the idea of not divulging the number of drivers in some iems.

Finally I think most brands should maybe reduce the lineup a bit, because maybe some iems are just filling space and not so exceptional?

Well said. People focus way too much on price. Hell, I actually prefer Spartan to Zeus, which just goes to show how powerful a signature can be when it matches your preference.
 
Jan 4, 2018 at 7:57 PM Post #7,107 of 39,414
I brought myself back to reality...I just completed a review for the Simgot EN700...budget priced but very nice sound. The lesson I learned is with all of the TOTL talk we sometimes don't even want to look less than that and that is a pity because we can miss some great gear.
 
Jan 4, 2018 at 8:05 PM Post #7,108 of 39,414
I brought myself back to reality...I just completed a review for the Simgot EN700...budget priced but very nice sound. The lesson I learned is with all of the TOTL talk we sometimes don't even want to look less than that and that is a pity because we can miss some great gear.

I'm being reminded of this myself with the iBasso IT01. Amazing little earphones!
 

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