[491326]

Deleted

 

[davidmolliere]

this happened to me too, I started listening to jazz and other acoustic recordings

Which IEM had you going this way?

 

[491326]

Time for more spam (uni elective class boring), I wanted to listen to music in class but since i'm wearing a black shirt and my iem cables are silver, the teacher will definitely notice (small classroom).

So I'm now thinking about the idea that @flinkenick proposed, sending music directly to your brain. Some interesting stuff to discuss

Isolation is the hardest to deal with, if music is sent directly to your brain, your ears are technically still listening to the sounds from the outside world, it'll be like the bone conducting headphones, probably. An easy solution is just to wear earplugs, but we're not here for easy solutions, we're here for the cooler way: to inhibit signals from your ear to your brain; this would be super immersive but also very dangerous. I'm in med school so I know a little bit of stuff (but I haven't really gotten very far in lessons yet so I'm not too solid). There are two nerves to consider: cranial nerve 7 (facial nerve) and cranial nerve 8 (vestibulocochlear nerve.) The vestibulocochlear nerve (auditory nerve) is responsible for hearing and balance, the facial nerve to facial muscles (facial expressions). While the facial nerve has little to do with our current interest (blocking auditory signals), the two nerves are seated next to each other so it may be a bad idea to block signals to the vestibulocochlear nerve as we might also block signals for the facial nerve on accident. Completely blocking signals to the vestibulocochlear nerve is also a bad idea actually because this nerve also deals with balance. Therefore attempting to block the auditory nerve impulses would probably also result in loss of balance and facial expression (really looks like having a stroke...) Therefore the best solution is still to wear earplugs (or if you're hardcore, just get your cochlea (hearing organ) removed and wear microphones for hearing. they will pick up on the sound from outside which you can send directly to your brain. if you want to listen to music, you can just turn off the microphones and send music to your brain.)

Frankly I have no idea how to actually sound sound to the brain (I haven't really learned neuro stuff yet, but lets assume someone has created a way to send sound to the brain. There may be a few really bad side effects. I'm guessing that any signal with any amount of energy can cause cell damage (srsly, our cells are weak af and the studies on this topic are so shaky, none of it is particularly believable imo). If someone beams signals to their brain everyday, it may cause cell damage (maybe cancer) over time. I know people say that non-ionizing radiation won't do any harm to our cells because it's "negligible" amount of damage but in reality, it's not a matter of either or, it's a more about saturation. I'm just gonna ignore this part because there may be arguments.... (btw theres a theory that says all of our bodies contain cancer cells at all times but they are kept below a life threatening amount by our immune system, topic for another forum)

Another really hard question would be the redefining of neutral. Ignoring the topic of sound preference, everyone hears differently, what one person considers neutral may not be the same for another. Theres a video somewhere online talking about colors and how we all my perceive colors completely differently, but since we've been taught from the start to associate that color with a specific name, we can all agree on the name. I guess the same would apply to sound as well. Maybe the first few people who succeed in beaming sound to their brain will get into huge arguments about what sounds "right" to them.

Also, would there be "hearing" damage then? our brains may still react to the sound being too loud, will that cause damage to our brain? like a form of neurotic deafness or something

 

[491326]

Which IEM had you going this way?

nothing special... i'm waiting on my 64 audio a12t but am currently using the campfire audio jupiter

 

[proedros]

wrong thread

 

[Sleepow]

Just a quick comment:
The gear you have might influence the music you like.
My previous speaker system (I had it for 10 years) was quite bright (or south of neutral), and so is my reference home headphones system (Stax 009).
During those 10 years:

• I got to enjoy symphonic orchestral music and opera much more: brightness helping with perceived resolution and separation might be a reason.
• I nearly totally stopped listening to heavy metal, trash, black metal,...or any kind of rock really (except AC/DC, my reference)
• Jazz never clicked with me: saxophones or trumpets just felt horribly harsh.

In the past year I upgraded my speaker system to something more musical (but actually also more resolving, just less in your face with the trebles) and acquired a Sony 1Z: what I listen to became suddenly much more diversified.

 

[jeffhawke]

Time for more spam (uni elective class boring), I wanted to listen to music in class but since i'm wearing a black shirt and my iem cables are silver, the teacher will definitely notice (small classroom).

So I'm now thinking about the idea that @flinkenick proposed, sending music directly to your brain. Some interesting stuff to discuss

Isolation is the hardest to deal with, if music is sent directly to your brain, your ears are technically still listening to the sounds from the outside world, it'll be like the bone conducting headphones, probably. An easy solution is just to wear earplugs, but we're not here for easy solutions, we're here for the cooler way: to inhibit signals from your ear to your brain; this would be super immersive but also very dangerous. I'm in med school so I know a little bit of stuff (but I haven't really gotten very far in lessons yet so I'm not too solid). There are two nerves to consider: cranial nerve 7 (facial nerve) and cranial nerve 8 (vestibulocochlear nerve.) The vestibulocochlear nerve (auditory nerve) is responsible for hearing and balance, the facial nerve to facial muscles (facial expressions). While the facial nerve has little to do with our current interest (blocking auditory signals), the two nerves are seated next to each other so it may be a bad idea to block signals to the vestibulocochlear nerve as we might also block signals for the facial nerve on accident. Completely blocking signals to the vestibulocochlear nerve is also a bad idea actually because this nerve also deals with balance. Therefore attempting to block the auditory nerve impulses would probably also result in loss of balance and facial expression (really looks like having a stroke...) Therefore the best solution is still to wear earplugs (or if you're hardcore, just get your cochlea (hearing organ) removed and wear microphones for hearing. they will pick up on the sound from outside which you can send directly to your brain. if you want to listen to music, you can just turn off the microphones and send music to your brain.)

Frankly I have no idea how to actually sound sound to the brain (I haven't really learned neuro stuff yet, but lets assume someone has created a way to send sound to the brain. There may be a few really bad side effects. I'm guessing that any signal with any amount of energy can cause cell damage (srsly, our cells are weak af and the studies on this topic are so shaky, none of it is particularly believable imo). If someone beams signals to their brain everyday, it may cause cell damage (maybe cancer) over time. I know people say that non-ionizing radiation won't do any harm to our cells because it's "negligible" amount of damage but in reality, it's not a matter of either or, it's a more about saturation. I'm just gonna ignore this part because there may be arguments.... (btw theres a theory that says all of our bodies contain cancer cells at all times but they are kept below a life threatening amount by our immune system, topic for another forum)

Another really hard question would be the redefining of neutral. Ignoring the topic of sound preference, everyone hears differently, what one person considers neutral may not be the same for another. Theres a video somewhere online talking about colors and how we all my perceive colors completely differently, but since we've been taught from the start to associate that color with a specific name, we can all agree on the name. I guess the same would apply to sound as well. Maybe the first few people who succeed in beaming sound to their brain will get into huge arguments about what sounds "right" to them.

Also, would there be "hearing" damage then? our brains may still react to the sound being too loud, will that cause damage to our brain? like a form of neurotic deafness or something

Kinda scary. I think I'll stick to conventional eardrums

 

[Wyville]

Time for more spam (uni elective class boring), I wanted to listen to music in class but since i'm wearing a black shirt and my iem cables are silver, the teacher will definitely notice (small classroom).

So I'm now thinking about the idea that @flinkenick proposed, sending music directly to your brain. Some interesting stuff to discuss

Isolation is the hardest to deal with, if music is sent directly to your brain, your ears are technically still listening to the sounds from the outside world, it'll be like the bone conducting headphones, probably. An easy solution is just to wear earplugs, but we're not here for easy solutions, we're here for the cooler way: to inhibit signals from your ear to your brain; this would be super immersive but also very dangerous. I'm in med school so I know a little bit of stuff (but I haven't really gotten very far in lessons yet so I'm not too solid). There are two nerves to consider: cranial nerve 7 (facial nerve) and cranial nerve 8 (vestibulocochlear nerve.) The vestibulocochlear nerve (auditory nerve) is responsible for hearing and balance, the facial nerve to facial muscles (facial expressions). While the facial nerve has little to do with our current interest (blocking auditory signals), the two nerves are seated next to each other so it may be a bad idea to block signals to the vestibulocochlear nerve as we might also block signals for the facial nerve on accident. Completely blocking signals to the vestibulocochlear nerve is also a bad idea actually because this nerve also deals with balance. Therefore attempting to block the auditory nerve impulses would probably also result in loss of balance and facial expression (really looks like having a stroke...) Therefore the best solution is still to wear earplugs (or if you're hardcore, just get your cochlea (hearing organ) removed and wear microphones for hearing. they will pick up on the sound from outside which you can send directly to your brain. if you want to listen to music, you can just turn off the microphones and send music to your brain.)

Frankly I have no idea how to actually sound sound to the brain (I haven't really learned neuro stuff yet, but lets assume someone has created a way to send sound to the brain. There may be a few really bad side effects. I'm guessing that any signal with any amount of energy can cause cell damage (srsly, our cells are weak af and the studies on this topic are so shaky, none of it is particularly believable imo). If someone beams signals to their brain everyday, it may cause cell damage (maybe cancer) over time. I know people say that non-ionizing radiation won't do any harm to our cells because it's "negligible" amount of damage but in reality, it's not a matter of either or, it's a more about saturation. I'm just gonna ignore this part because there may be arguments.... (btw theres a theory that says all of our bodies contain cancer cells at all times but they are kept below a life threatening amount by our immune system, topic for another forum)

Another really hard question would be the redefining of neutral. Ignoring the topic of sound preference, everyone hears differently, what one person considers neutral may not be the same for another. Theres a video somewhere online talking about colors and how we all my perceive colors completely differently, but since we've been taught from the start to associate that color with a specific name, we can all agree on the name. I guess the same would apply to sound as well. Maybe the first few people who succeed in beaming sound to their brain will get into huge arguments about what sounds "right" to them.

Also, would there be "hearing" damage then? our brains may still react to the sound being too loud, will that cause damage to our brain? like a form of neurotic deafness or something

Interesting thoughts and since you are a med student I will share a few points of my own that might be interesting to consider.

When using bone conducting headphones, the sound still goes via the ears. The only difference is that bone is used as the medium for the sound waves, rather than air, but they still end up in the same place. This is the reason why earplugs can never isolate 100% of noise, because some noise will always get through via the bones.

You are getting close to some of the problems with "beaming" sound. The main problem I see is that the brain is an organ and thus we are talking biology, not technology. Where many scientists think reductionistic and thus translate many biological functions into linear pathways, the reality is that biology does not give a flying flip about linearity and "pathways". Biology is about networks where the consequences of a single action are contingent, rather than discrete. A good example would be my experience with ADHD medication. ADHD is (probably) caused by lower levels of certain neurotransmitters (signal molecules brain cells use) and the medication I used elevated the levels of just those neurotransmitters. The problem was that I suffered horrible side effects and it completely screwed up my thinking processes. Since I quit the medication I have been using alternative (natural) means to elevate the levels of neurotransmitters, such as music, and I can do that without side effects (except for some slight wallet-related issues). Why? Because it allows for my body to maintain control over everything, and as such maintain its balance. When people start screwing around with that balance, it invariably causes a disruption and then the consequences can easily escalate.

A beam to produce music in the brain is not feasible because of that. I will illustrate that with something that also touches on Nic's musings earlier, about how music becomes engaging. Music becomes "engaging" when it activates large areas of the brain and this is down to many factors including personal preferences developed during one's upbringing. Have a look:

This is the late Oliver Sacks' brain while listening to music. The difference is clear, but why is it there? Sacks grew up with Bach and he loves it. See how engaged his brain is? There is clearly more activity there. (Cell-cell communication, remember those neurotransmitters? Through the roof! = Happy me!) This is something we can neither predict nor control, not even theoretically. It is however really cool stuff and gives a glimpse into just how evolutionary primitive music is (pre-dating human speech) and why this hobby can be so incredibly addictive.

 

[vladstef]

Time for more spam (uni elective class boring), I wanted to listen to music in class but since i'm wearing a black shirt and my iem cables are silver, the teacher will definitely notice (small classroom).

So I'm now thinking about the idea that @flinkenick proposed, sending music directly to your brain. Some interesting stuff to discuss

Isolation is the hardest to deal with, if music is sent directly to your brain, your ears are technically still listening to the sounds from the outside world, it'll be like the bone conducting headphones, probably. An easy solution is just to wear earplugs, but we're not here for easy solutions, we're here for the cooler way: to inhibit signals from your ear to your brain; this would be super immersive but also very dangerous. I'm in med school so I know a little bit of stuff (but I haven't really gotten very far in lessons yet so I'm not too solid). There are two nerves to consider: cranial nerve 7 (facial nerve) and cranial nerve 8 (vestibulocochlear nerve.) The vestibulocochlear nerve (auditory nerve) is responsible for hearing and balance, the facial nerve to facial muscles (facial expressions). While the facial nerve has little to do with our current interest (blocking auditory signals), the two nerves are seated next to each other so it may be a bad idea to block signals to the vestibulocochlear nerve as we might also block signals for the facial nerve on accident. Completely blocking signals to the vestibulocochlear nerve is also a bad idea actually because this nerve also deals with balance. Therefore attempting to block the auditory nerve impulses would probably also result in loss of balance and facial expression (really looks like having a stroke...) Therefore the best solution is still to wear earplugs (or if you're hardcore, just get your cochlea (hearing organ) removed and wear microphones for hearing. they will pick up on the sound from outside which you can send directly to your brain. if you want to listen to music, you can just turn off the microphones and send music to your brain.)

Frankly I have no idea how to actually sound sound to the brain (I haven't really learned neuro stuff yet, but lets assume someone has created a way to send sound to the brain. There may be a few really bad side effects. I'm guessing that any signal with any amount of energy can cause cell damage (srsly, our cells are weak af and the studies on this topic are so shaky, none of it is particularly believable imo). If someone beams signals to their brain everyday, it may cause cell damage (maybe cancer) over time. I know people say that non-ionizing radiation won't do any harm to our cells because it's "negligible" amount of damage but in reality, it's not a matter of either or, it's a more about saturation. I'm just gonna ignore this part because there may be arguments.... (btw theres a theory that says all of our bodies contain cancer cells at all times but they are kept below a life threatening amount by our immune system, topic for another forum)

Another really hard question would be the redefining of neutral. Ignoring the topic of sound preference, everyone hears differently, what one person considers neutral may not be the same for another. Theres a video somewhere online talking about colors and how we all my perceive colors completely differently, but since we've been taught from the start to associate that color with a specific name, we can all agree on the name. I guess the same would apply to sound as well. Maybe the first few people who succeed in beaming sound to their brain will get into huge arguments about what sounds "right" to them.

Also, would there be "hearing" damage then? our brains may still react to the sound being too loud, will that cause damage to our brain? like a form of neurotic deafness or something

But this would be a logical step forward. Same goes for video - stimulate neural paths bypassing the limitations of our eyes. One step further than that is stimulating areas of the brain directly - at this point we are talking about fully virtual lives.
When it comes to audio - imagine being able to hear 20-20k or maybe even more than that. Maybe there will be ways to 'hear' beyond out imagination currently.

Ethical lines are very blurry when considering this: all of it appears to be like taking drugs to experience something different - being an audiophile essentially is that after all, getting high on quality sounds (without the, you know... bad stuff).

 

[EagleWings]

The alert said "@Wyville attached a file..." and I came as fast as I could to see your Phantom..

 

[Wyville]

The alert said "@Wyville attached a file..." and I came as fast as I could to see your Phantom..

Those should be coming very soon!

 

[Kerouac]

The alert said "@Wyville attached a file..." and I came as fast as I could to see your Phantom..

That would have been some smart looking facebrainplates though

 

[491326]

biology does not give a flying flip about linearity and "pathways"

amen

Music becomes "engaging" when it activates large areas of the brain and this is down to many factors including personal preferences developed during one's upbringing. Have a look:

This is the late Oliver Sacks' brain while listening to music. The difference is clear, but why is it there? Sacks grew up with Bach and he loves it. See how engaged his brain is?

this is actually super cool, i love the fact that growing up with something increases your mental connection with it. my idea may be misguided, but maybe what sound signatures we like can be affected by such things too? Although I don't think many young kids know what a sound signature is

 

[ctsooner22]

A few things in the thread going on right now, so sorry. Since getting the PHantom's over 100 hours, I have realized that I"m listening to everything again. It was like when I went to Vandersteen speakers with my 2 channel system. I started to listen to songs that I haven't even wanted to listen to for years. They just sound right. So tonally accurate with all the other adjectives that are used for a reference quality transducer, they make music fun again.

I love how you guys have discussed the tonality part of music. As was stated, all music is about tone. It's just how the producer/mixer etc... interprets it when recording and honestly only they know exactly what tone they were trying to get. In the end as long as we are happy with what we have or will get, that's the only thing that counts. Will your new Phantom or VE5 or Legend X or Noble or 64 make you want to listen? That's the biggest question.

 

[ctsooner22]

amen



this is actually super cool, i love the fact that growing up with something increases your mental connection with it. my idea may be misguided, but maybe what sound signatures we like can be affected by such things too? Although I don't think many young kids know what a sound signature is

What a topic. Very cool. I read your last statement about kids not knowing what a sound signature is. If they are in the niche market of higher end audio, they certainly do. The thing is that 2 channel audio is niche and the IEM world is even more niche. The high end headphone world is even bigger than the high end IEM world.

That said, I do think that most folks who are involved on the board will be into sound signatures. Even folks who go by the Sony headphones over the Sennheisers or the Bose or the.....(name any headphone that is under 300 or so) want more bass or less bass or they want more treble or less treble. NO, they don't know the word sound signature, but they will often buy based on sound and not just looks. Comfort is a huge deal to most though. It's mostly marketing to these folks, but my kids (both in college) and their friends do want something that sounds good. I ask them all the time especially after I let my daughter use my old bedroom audio system in her apartment and now the kids all want to go there on the weekends, because he has such a good system (it's only a Marantz AVR with Paradigm speakers and sub along with a nice Marantz CD player). They even steam CD quality/MQA Tidal as I got her a log in for the higher end Tidal streaming. They hear the difference and seem to love it. None care about high end audio or high end IEM's or even a DAP. They do know what they like to hear and as long as it has a ton of bass and is fatigue free, they are very happy. I think I've stayed on track here. Hope so...thanks.