Q701 impressions thread
Mar 22, 2012 at 9:58 AM Post #796 of 9,602
This has been discussed in depth on a recent thread here: http://www.head-fi.org/t/598004/amping-for-akg-q701
I used to think it was my amp that was partly responsible for the 702 being so overly bright, but now I'm leaning towards the view that it's simply a characteristic of those headphones. You can read through that thread and make up your own mind, but it seems easier and more logical to just sell them and get a headphone that's not so bright, rather then spend mega bucks searching for the right amp to act as an expensive tone control to lower the brightness. I'm only keeping them because they're a good tool for music production, otherwise the hd580 gives me everything I need...and I don't need to spend > $1000 for an expensive tone control. BTW you can mod them and tone down the brightness a bit. Do a forum search for 'friend or foe mod'.
Quote:
Hey guys,
 
I have a simple question.
I've owned the Q701 for the past few days and burned them in.
I find myself hearing the Q701 too bright for my ears.
I do not have proper amping, I am using a digital hdmi output from my computer to the VSX-821k receiver headphone out.
The receiver can easily amp the Q701 to kill my ears but is very likely not driving them properly to the full extent.
 
I was planning to buy the HRT Music Streamer -> Matrix M stage or the DacMagic -> O2
I've read the threads, it seems like these will certainly drive them properly.
 
I know it will reduce the brightness but will it reduce the brightness by a lot? (Besides doing the mod or EQ)
If not, I may end up returning these (still have a few days left before the limit) for something warmer.
 
(Nonetheless, I do love the amazing detail from these.)
 
Thanks!



 
 
Mar 22, 2012 at 11:35 AM Post #797 of 9,602
Aww so the brightness is just a signature sound from the Q701?
While it may be perfect for most, it hurts my ears. Brightness to me sounds mechanical also.
I saw the mod but was just wondering other opinions besides messing with eq and nodding.
Thanks for the help.
 
Mar 22, 2012 at 11:52 AM Post #798 of 9,602


Quote:
Aww so the brightness is just a signature sound from the Q701?
While it may be perfect for most, it hurts my ears. Brightness to me sounds mechanical also.
I saw the mod but was just wondering other opinions besides messing with eq and nodding.
Thanks for the help.

It's possible they will change a little with 'burn in' but it's mostly your ears/brain that will get used to their sound. However, if you wait too long you won't be able to return them. I'm the third owner of mine so they're well burned in, and they're still a little too bright for my taste....even with the mod. The best option, if they're too bright, is simply get a phone without so much treble emphasis. Maybe the k601? 
 
 
 
Mar 22, 2012 at 12:01 PM Post #799 of 9,602


Quote:
Again, just because YOU can't hear a difference doesn't mean there wasn't.
 
You believe in pad burn-in but not driver burn in? Do you have any measurements? I think pad burn in really doesn't exist!
biggrin.gif

 


I don't want this to turn into a "is burn in real?" thread, but:
 
I never said ear pad "burn in".  Pads simply get softer after some time. They form to the shape of your head, therefore drivers get slightly closer to your ear. Most importantly, pads create a better seal around your ears. That does change the sound. Put the headphones on, and then press them into your head. You will hear changes in the sound, mostly more bass, less treble, overall fuller sound.  Its simple and very easily tested.  I don't have any measurement to prove that, but you don't need measurements, because anyone can try it  and see if its true in about 5 seconds. Pads creating a better seal changes the sound, even on opened headphones, although its not as dramatic as on closed ones.
 
Let me get one thing straight.  I know that sound coming from the driver CHANGES as the driver works, but the thing is, you or anyone else don't have any measurements to prove that burn in of drivers IMPROVES the sound quality. In fact, anyone who's ever done the measurements to compare new and burned in headphones said that its either a myth, or changes are very insignificant. Sound certainly doesn't get "much better" or anything of that sort after XXX hours. That is just impossible from every aspect, besides, why would manufacturers sell products which need 200-300 hours of running time just to start sounding good? It doesn't make sense. Its as if a car would do 0-60 in 10 seconds new out of the factory, and then after 20000 miles on the clock, it would suddenly do 0-60 in 6 seconds.
 
Yes, "burn-in" of drivers changes the frequency response and the sound very slightly, but those changes are so tiny that they're even hard to detect with measurements (I highly doubt anyone can hear 0-1 or 0.2 db differences), and might as well be affected by changes in atmospheric pressure, moisture in air, room temperature / driver material temperature, etc.  In any case, changes aren't big, and aren't permanent. If you go to youtube Innerfidelity channel, you will find a video showing that the frequency graph of Q701's varies constantly as the time passes. But it fluctuates, it changes at 30 hours, then at 40 goes back to where it was at 20, etc. It never settles, and you cant say "after 200 hours they sound much better", because at 220 hours the sound might be back where it was at 150 hours.  The point is, fluctuations in sound are tiny, and the sound never settles, it always changes, but those changes are too small to be noticed.
 
If someone hears BIG changes in sound after XX hours, fine, but there are many factors that affect our hearing, and those BIG changes in perceived sound are then almost purely psychological, and until someone comes out with strong evidence to prove otherwise, its how it is. If someone puts the headphones into a drawer and lets them play music for a week in order to burn them in, during that week, he will constantly have a thought in the back of his mind, constantly thinking that headphones will miraculously sound much better next time he puts them on. And of course when he does put the headphones on, he will focus much more on sound (in order to hear the "changes"), and due to placebo effects and him focusing on the sound, he will feel that the headphones sound better, even though he doesn't even remember how exactly the headphones sounded 1 week ago.
 
Those are just my 2 cents...
 
Does burn in change sound? Yes...same as a tall building sinks into the ground with time, but nobody will notice.
 
Are those changes so dramatic that headphones would sound better after XX time? No. If you don't like headphones out of the box, you won't like them after a million years of burn in, and anyone who says otherwise is lying to himself.
 
 
Mar 22, 2012 at 12:41 PM Post #800 of 9,602


Quote:
:OOO
I see, I thought just like how some people say "xx headphone and xy (portable) amp, can sound decent but you'd be missing some aa and bb would be more harsh, and ab would be less tight" etc
Right now, I'm hearing a LOT of sibilance and bright treble. Sibilance from any time I hear "s" and bright treble on high notes on violin solos.
I was hoping to hear much reduction from a proper amp but it seems like this may not be the case?
I'll keep them until Friday and make a decision for final listening tests and more feedback from everyone. Such a beauty too =/
Thanks Chris J for your input.


A ot of sibilance and bright treble? Ahhhhh, yes, they are a rather bright headphone.
 
With some of the equipment I have: iPod, iPad Notebook Computer, I could hear how lackluster that equipment really sounds, it works with Q701 but the headphone jacks don't sound that great and are not good enough for a Q701.  I also have trouble listening to some of the harsher MP3 files and iTunes files I have thru the Q701s.
OTOH,  a lot of the jazz I have (various vintages, mostly "acoustic jazz", drums, acoustic bass, piano, horns, etc) sounds great thru the the Q701s.
 
I think a lot of Q701 owners like the Matrix M Stage because it is a slightly dark, mellow sounding amp and helps to tame some of the sibilance and treble of the Q, but there is still no mistaking it for a bright headphone.
 
Personally, I do switch between my Q701 and DT880 'phones, depending on how bright or dull the recording is.
And I do a fair amount of switching back and forth between my SS and tube head amps.
Yes, it's crazy.
 
 
Mar 22, 2012 at 1:00 PM Post #801 of 9,602


Quote:
Hey guys,
 
I have a simple question.
I've owned the Q701 for the past few days and burned them in.
I find myself hearing the Q701 too bright for my ears.

 
Thanks!



Are you sure it's not just the recordings fault? Sometimes when I listen to specific Jpop it's painful on the Q701. It's often easy for me to blame the headphones. If I take the same recording and listen to it on my KRKs it's just as bad. Even on my K601. It's amazing how many songs I have where it's as if they cranked the mids and treble really high in the studio. Some albums by the Japanese singer "Hitomi" are unlistenable, so I deleted them.
 
The Q701 and my KRKs won't touch any of my music to make it easier on the ears. For this I prefer the HD-598, which tames very bad recordings slightly. Even the HD-600 with stock cable does this somewhat, but not as badly.
 
Of course it could be the source/receiver too. For example, my Ipod Touch 2G and E7 make all my headphones slightly brighter than they should be. I don't like this..Both are supposedly neutral, but it sure doesn't seem like it.
 
Mar 22, 2012 at 1:08 PM Post #802 of 9,602


Quote:
I don't want this to turn into a "is burn in real?" thread, but:
 
I never said ear pad "burn in".  Pads simply get softer after some time. They form to the shape of your head, therefore drivers get slightly closer to your ear. Most importantly, pads create a better seal around your ears. That does change the sound. Put the headphones on, and then press them into your head. You will hear changes in the sound, mostly more bass, less treble, overall fuller sound.  Its simple and very easily tested.  I don't have any measurement to prove that, but you don't need measurements, because anyone can try it  and see if its true in about 5 seconds. Pads creating a better seal changes the sound, even on opened headphones, although its not as dramatic as on closed ones.

 
I know, I was only kidding about the pad burn in. When I meant measurements, I meant with a ruler
biggrin.gif

I wish people on here could just just say they do or do not believe in cables or burn-in without preaching. Of course I don't help much with this. I like making cheap DIY cables, so I don't mind talking about it. The science guys love it when I do this!
 
When people don't believe in cables I wish people would stop telling me I'm hearing things and let me just enjoy my dang headphones. Not like most cables cost much at all. Sometimes just $5 and it's a fun project to do a recable or make your own interconnects. Nobody can change my opinions on burn-in or cables. I prefer to do my own testing and reports my findings. What's really sad is how many people believe in things others say without doing their own testing. I know I did this once too.

 
 
 
Mar 22, 2012 at 1:14 PM Post #803 of 9,602


Quote:
It's possible they will change a little with 'burn in' but it's mostly your ears/brain that will get used to their sound. However, if you wait too long you won't be able to return them. I'm the third owner of mine so they're well burned in, and they're still a little too bright for my taste....even with the mod. The best option, if they're too bright, is simply get a phone without so much treble emphasis. Maybe the k601? 
 
 


K601 has less treble extension, but really not any more forgiving of bad source files. It still can be bright for some.
It actually has a larger lower treble peak than the Q701/K702 I think. Perhaps even more forward upper mids.
 
It's amazing how much sibilance is actually IN the recording. Lots of my cantopop music has this and it's quite annoying. On some headphones it's much harder to hear. Like the HD-600 or 598.
 
K501 is much smoother and more balanced sounding than the K601 and Q701. Just not quite as clear and detailed I think. Possible one of the best headphones ever made if you don't mind it's massive soundstage.
 
 
Mar 22, 2012 at 2:50 PM Post #804 of 9,602
For folks who find these phones too bright, I suggest giving a crossfeed DSP a try, assuming you are using computer as source and if DSP doesn't offend your sensibilities.  I'm using B2SB for foobar, but I've tried another one made by xnor called Crossfeed.
 
bauer: http://bs2b.sourceforge.net/download.html
 
xnor crossfeed: http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=90764
 
They lower treble, especially xnor's, and you can play with the crossfeed delay to put the sound more in front and less side to side.  I prefer BS2B because it doesn't have as many adjustments so it's a little simpler to use and it doesn't lower treble as much.  If you're into tweaking, xnor's plugin might be for you.  After modding my 325is, I'm gonna stay away from mods in the future.
 
Mar 22, 2012 at 3:46 PM Post #805 of 9,602
Quote:
Are you sure it's not just the recordings fault? Sometimes when I listen to specific Jpop it's painful on the Q701. It's often easy for me to blame the headphones. If I take the same recording and listen to it on my KRKs it's just as bad. Even on my K601. It's amazing how many songs I have where it's as if they cranked the mids and treble really high in the studio. Some albums by the Japanese singer "Hitomi" are unlistenable, so I deleted them.
 
The Q701 and my KRKs won't touch any of my music to make it easier on the ears. For this I prefer the HD-598, which tames very bad recordings slightly. Even the HD-600 with stock cable does this somewhat, but not as badly.
 
Of course it could be the source/receiver too. For example, my Ipod Touch 2G and E7 make all my headphones slightly brighter than they should be. I don't like this..Both are supposedly neutral, but it sure doesn't seem like it.

I'm pretty sure it isn't the recordings fault. I've downloaded from http://www.2l.no/hires/index.html
I originally thought it was the amplifier's fault (receiver) too but it seems like it won't make too much of a difference with a dedicated amp according to what I've been reading.
I'm mostly a classical listener and don't mind having another headphone for the "bass" colored headphones.
I'll be doing a lot of listening tonight after work (ends sooo soon) and thinking what I should do. - These are amazing headphones and don't want to return them if they can be fixed! Love hearing all the details in classical music (at least.. the details I can hear without a DAC/Amp, should be even better if treble can be fixed).
 
Quote:
For folks who find these phones too bright, I suggest giving a crossfeed DSP a try, assuming you are using computer as source and if DSP doesn't offend your sensibilities.  I'm using B2SB for foobar, but I've tried another one made by xnor called Crossfeed.
 
bauer: http://bs2b.sourceforge.net/download.html
 
xnor crossfeed: http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=90764
 
They lower treble, especially xnor's, and you can play with the crossfeed delay to put the sound more in front and less side to side.  I prefer BS2B because it doesn't have as many adjustments so it's a little simpler to use and it doesn't lower treble as much.  If you're into tweaking, xnor's plugin might be for you.  After modding my 325is, I'm gonna stay away from mods in the future.

I'll definitely look into this tonight. Hopefully it can solve all my problems!
 
Just wondering for everyone - how do you guys listen to average recordings occasionally such as youtube - etc
 
Mar 22, 2012 at 4:29 PM Post #806 of 9,602
Hmmmm!
I'm also having second thoughts about these cans, overly bright and lacking bass, only hope is for the break-in to compensate for this faults.
I'm also using Matrix M-stage and I noticed a very good amping and sound improvement with ATH M50 rather then Q701.
And by the way I don't believe in the "ear pads softening = burn in = better bass, less highs". Pads were studied by the their makers intensively  to have the best impact right from the box, when their new they should help the cans sound to their best. If headphones sound better when their drivers are very close to the ear then,  every headphone maker would do that.
Also the theory of your "brain/ears get used to the sound" could be sidestepped by listening to other headphone type/maker alternately.
 
Mar 22, 2012 at 4:31 PM Post #807 of 9,602


Quote:
Right now, I'm hearing a LOT of sibilance and bright treble. Sibilance from any time I hear "s" and bright treble on high notes on violin solos.



I only hear sibilance if its in the recording with my Q701s.  Otherwise they are pretty smooth.
 
My laptops HP out was slightly more sibilant than my amp/dac.
 
Mar 22, 2012 at 4:42 PM Post #808 of 9,602
Quote:
I only hear sibilance if its in the recording with my Q701s.  Otherwise they are pretty smooth.
 
My laptops HP out was slightly more sibilant than my amp/dac.

Hey, yea I agree with you.
Only on recordings such as youtube / spotify I hear sibilance. Otherwise on my music file recordings, it is rarely an occurance.
However, this does not stop my violin(s) still sounding bright at medium-high volumes =/ (at least without "proper" amp/dac)
Hopefully that addin idea will work! Only time will tell.. should be back home within an hour.
 
 
Mar 23, 2012 at 5:27 PM Post #809 of 9,602
These just got here and I plugged them into my O2 and I've been lost in musical bliss since! What wonderful headphones these are, they have just the perfect amount of bass for me, and that soundstage. Wow!
 
Mar 23, 2012 at 6:12 PM Post #810 of 9,602

 
Quote:
These just got here and I plugged them into my O2 and I've been lost in musical bliss since! What wonderful headphones these are, they have just the perfect amount of bass for me, and that soundstage. Wow!

Yeah! I actually compared the q701 to a friend's hd600. We both agreed that the bass in q701 is not as loud but it is still sounds present which is perfect for classical music. I hate boomy timpani's xD The hd600 had clearer & more detailed sound but the soundstage on q701 is a lot better!
 

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