[jsplice]

Quote:

Originally Posted by oatmeal769 /img/forum/go_quote.gif You may absolutely be right. Don't take my word for it though, have a listen for yourself. Actually, I'm quite hopeful that someone with better hearing, an open mind, and/or a better rig can tell which is which. Otherwise, I can still conclude that the $1,200 'premium' over a basic DAC is a waste of money. As to your other statement, ignorant and close minded is what I was before I finally figured out that what you folks are speaking of here is pure B.S. BTW, there's a million dollars there for the taking if you can show that you can detect a difference between your choice of interconnect, and a $15 set from Best Buy.

I'm sorry, but this test of yours that you linked to is ridiculous, and I may have even pointed this out earlier on in the thread. The A/D converter of your EMU sound card could easily be inaccurately capturing the original analog signal, and eliminates this test from holding any true value. This would be similar to making a copy of a high speed reel tape to a cassette tape, then back onto a high speed real and saying "bet you can't hear the difference". If you need science to help explain to you why your ears aren't good enough to hear certain differences, that's fine. But this method you've come up with certainly isn't the best way to do it.

Worst case scenario, I guess you are just "enlightened" and the rest of us are idiots.

 

[oatmeal769]

No worries my man... thanks for clarifying.
But, what you say is my whole point, I WAS[/] listening and comparing DAC's, etc in SUBjective environs - AND I was hearing distinct differences. I have no doubt - even to this day - that when I swap components, switch between inputs, etc. that I can hear differences.
I spent three days at one show, and a full day at another before deciding to buy my own DL-III. I felt it was far and away the best deal in price vs. performance. I knew it could easily keep up with some of the $5k DAC's I'd heard at the shows.

For the first month I was happy as a clam - convinced the DAC brought out details I'd never heard before. The soundstage was wider, and I felt much more dimension around the instruments. Then I did some OBjective testing, and found that the mind is indeed VERY good at convincing itself of just about anything.

 

[AmanGeorge]

I haven't taken your test, maybe at some point I'll get around to it, but if a test tells me something different from what I know to be true (that DACs sound different), then there's something wrong with the test - either it's not set up properly, or it's unable to accurately measure all the relevant outcomes. It's well-established around these parts that graphs only tell you so much about the way a piece of equipment sounds - you have to trust your ears to tell you the rest. It sounds to me like you're a reasonable, practical, self-aware person. If you're conscious of the fact that the mind can play tricks and you therefore try your best to critically and dispassionately analyze equipment when listening to it, and even still found the DLIII more pleasing to your ears than a Zero, trust your ears rather than your graphs.

 

[oatmeal769]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jsplice /img/forum/go_quote.gif The A/D converter of your EMU sound card could easily be inaccurately capturing the original analog signal

that would be absolutely true, except that comparing the 're-recorded' file to the original produced nothing above a 50/50 variance in DB tests. I'm happy to provide the original digial files, which may be compared against the freedb database for accuracy.

This is the same card specified by DigiDesign for it's Pro Tools software. For anyone who doesn't know, this is the same system used to record and mix nearly every major label release over the last 10 to 15 years. I think it's good enough.

The original Real-Tek set I had wasn't cutting it. The files recorded significantly different, so I upgraded to the E-Mu.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jsplice /img/forum/go_quote.gif Worst case scenario, I guess you are just "enlightened" and the rest of us are idiots.

Well, I wouldn't speak for others if I were you. A more correct word would be ignorant. I don't think you're an idiot, but yes, I do feel enlightened.

 

[AmanGeorge]

^Of course, the other possibility is that the Zero you tried is actually that good. I've never heard one.

 

[oatmeal769]

Quote:

Originally Posted by AmanGeorge /img/forum/go_quote.gif It's well-established around these parts that graphs only tell you so much about the way a piece of equipment sounds - you have to trust your ears to tell you the rest.

Totally agree, the graphs show all three to be extremely different. That's why I did the sound tests. That's where the meat and potatoes are. Quote:

Originally Posted by AmanGeorge /img/forum/go_quote.gif It sounds to me like you're a reasonable, practical, self-aware person. If you're conscious of the fact that the mind can play tricks and you therefore try your best to critically and dispassionately analyze equipment when listening to it, and even still found the DLIII more pleasing to your ears than a Zero, trust your ears rather than your graphs.

I don't know about reasonable, or self aware really, but I have been a music lover and avid listener my entire life, and have worked professionally in music both as a musician and an audio engineer for the past 20 years or so. I never stop learning. If you'd have told me this stuff a year ago, I'd have called BS as loudly as anyone. I'm just now figuring this stuff out.

 

[jsplice]

I agree with AmanGeorge here. Test results and graphs can only take you so far. You have to use your own ears to make any final judgments. You spoke of how the mind can cause a placebo effect when comparing DACs, but your test that possibly nullifies audible differences between the DACs could have had a NEGATIVE placebo effect on you as well, making you believe that you can't hear any differences. Now we'll just be going around in circles with this, but it's just important not to get too wrapped up in "what sounds better" and just listen to what you enjoy without taking out a second mortgage to fuel the hobby. Everyone has to spend within their means, but that won't ever make me ignorant to the fact that there will always be something better sounding out there. It's all about finding that happy medium.

 

[oatmeal769]

Quote:

Originally Posted by AmanGeorge /img/forum/go_quote.gif ^Of course, the other possibility is that the Zero you tried is actually that good. I've never heard one.

LOL, now that is a possibility. I did NOT test it against the other Zero I had. Maybe I got a really good one or something.

 

[oatmeal769]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jsplice /img/forum/go_quote.gif Now we'll just be going around in circles with this, but it's just important not to get too wrapped up in "what sounds better" and just listen to what you enjoy without taking out a second mortgage to fuel the hobby. Everyone has to spend within their means, but that won't ever make me ignorant to the fact that there will always be something better sounding out there. It's all about finding that happy medium.

Agreed. I just like to take any opportunity to tell people that just because they don't have the $10K headphone rig, doesn't mean they can't have a damn good sounding one for a few hundred. It's not like anyone is missing stuff in the music by not having high dollar equipment, or most importantly, enjoy the hell out of it.

 

[wharfrat1]

I don't think anyone here is advocating that you have to spend a lot of money to get great sound. I really agree that it is all about getting to the sound that makes you happiest. I really could hear a difference between my HR Max Dac and the modded DLIII, no doubt about it in my mind.

I also could hear a big difference between the LD MKIII I had and my Raptor.

I guess you could spin me a test that tells me I'm wrong, but that still wouldn't be enough to change my mind.

People should spend what they are comfortable spending to get the sound they are trying to achieve. For some it may only take a few hundred dollars, for others it could take $50K. To each his/her own.

For me, I have found my happy spot (almost). I love the sound I am getting from my setup, and the only thing I am looking for is a set of cans that will serve as a good complement to my HD-800's. I've got a pair of D7000's coming in, so maybe that will end my journey, who knows.

Again, it's all about finding joy and happiness in the music. When you find that enjoyment, more or less money spent getting there will not make it feel any diffferent or take it away.

 

[etiolate]

i think i joined this thread at an awkward time... (steps back slowly)

 

[tosehee]

Hello, Etiolate.

I recently owned this PS Link 3 myself, and started reading. Seems like the DBT is at test again...

Better step back and enjoy the show.

 

[anetode]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jsplice /img/forum/go_quote.gif You spoke of how the mind can cause a placebo effect when comparing DACs, but your test that possibly nullifies audible differences between the DACs could have had a NEGATIVE placebo effect on you as well, making you believe that you can't hear any differences.

You're aware that DBTs are designed with the sole purpose of eliminating the placebo effect/observer bias, right?

 

[oatmeal769]

Quote:

Originally Posted by anetode /img/forum/go_quote.gif You're aware that DBTs are designed with the sole purpose of eliminating the placebo effect/observer bias, right?

X2

Also to eliminate one person's opinion. People can listen for themselves and make their own evaluation. Many people reaching one conclusion over another can result in a consensus. Just because I can't hear a difference though, doesn't mean someone else can't.
I wasn't going to beat people over the head with it. Those like me willing to admit they don't know everything, and maybe don't even know what they think they know - again much like me, LOL - will figure this stuff out on their own. I thought I knew how to "A/B" stuff, but like most things, it isn't as simple as it seems.

 

[tosehee]

I am with the groups that thinks the most high end DACs have only minor upgrades to the $500 to $1000 DACs.

I used to own Ref1, CIAudio VDA-1/VAC-1, and now PS-3, and while there are differences between them, they are not always easy to tell apart for every music that I play.

On top of it, the diminishing returns play pretty darn well when you go from PS-3 and upwards. I have no regret selling my Ref1.